GT Peer Group & Path to Success

[Augusta_Jacket]

All models are wrong; some are useful. Metrics and models align in that sense.

Apropos of nothing, but somewhat a tangent to your point, is that sometimes we also build the wrong solutions from available data. In WWII they tracked where all the bullet/flak holes were in the returning B-17s in order to understand why they were losing so many of them. Their initial thought was to reinforce those areas in order for the planes to be more resistant during their missions. The engineers pressed to reinforce the seemingly most vulnerable areas, but a scientist and mathematician convinced them that the real problem was where the bullets weren't. They needed to armor the engines, cockpit, and rear fuselage because that's where the critical hits were coming in. I think we suffer sometimes from the same problem. We have a ton of data and we are convincing ourselves it points to a solution that we are biased towards, and yet we may not even be asking the right questions.

Culture is different at every school, and no single culture is inherently better than the other. If the culture does not produce the desired results, then the culture needs to change. That is the current issue. We are talking about culture, but maybe we need to have a hard discussion about what we truly desire for our football program before we settle on what kind of culture best gets us there.

 

[Vespidae]

All good points, but Leadership trumps metrics and models with measurable easy to understand goals that matter to the organization.

Leadership doesn't just happen. Leadership is a process of social influence, which maximizes the efforts of others, towards the achievement of a goal.

How do you determine progress? You have to have some means to measure/monitor your progress towards the stated goal.

Geoff, to my view, has never spoken in specific terms but rather, vague accolades; e.g., "elite program", "maximize effectiveness" etc. TStan isn't much better.

That's why the program wanders. There is no objective way to communicate whether or not we are making progress against milestones. Opinions are not objective. Facts are.

 

[Vespidae]

Culture is different at every school, and no single culture is inherently better than the other. If the culture does not produce the desired results, then the culture needs to change. That is the current issue. We are talking about culture, but maybe we need to have a hard discussion about what we truly desire for our football program before we settle on what kind of culture best gets us there.

Alfred Chandler, professor at MIT, wrote about this in 1962. Glad to see we are finally getting up to speed on basic management.

 

[GoldZ]

Leadership doesn't just happen. Leadership is a process of social influence, which maximizes the efforts of others, towards the achievement of a goal.

How do you determine progress? You have to have some means to measure/monitor your progress towards the stated goal.

Geoff, to my view, has never spoken in specific terms but rather, vague accolades; e.g., "elite program", "maximize effectiveness" etc. TStan isn't much better.

That's why the program wanders. There is no objective way to communicate whether or not we are making progress against milestones. Opinions are not objective. Facts are.

Leadership comes from the very top of the organization and if said org isn't being led, it will find someone who will. Virtually all goals are measurable. CGC/TStan are not at the top level of the organization. Football in this context is an important part of the organization that is not being "led" at the top.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

Alfred Chandler, professor at MIT, wrote about this in 1962. Glad to see we are finally getting up to speed on basic management.

These issues well precede Alfred Chandler, and the same issues will be present a century from now. For decades the AA at FSU was known to be toxic, but it didn't matter because they had the means and wherewithal to overpower bad management and get good results. The same can be said of UF under Mayer. The difference with us is we DON'T have the means to overcome bad management, and with the rapidly changing landscape in college football, we may be ceding too much ground to recover fully.

 

[Vespidae]

CGC/TStan are not at the top level of the organization.

TStan is the executive in charge. He is the top of the organization and responsible for resources and results. It's up to Cabrera and the BoT to hold him accountable.

 

[GTLorenzo]

This is the crux of the issue. You are projecting that anyone who disagrees with you has the polar opposite view, and that is patently false. There are a lot of us unhappy with the programs direction, and not fans of some of the cultural changes that were made, yet support CGC because of various reasons. I loathed "money Down" and the "Juice Crew" but I also realized I wasn't the target audience for that. I am also smart enough to realize that some announcer saying some different words and some guys actually having fun playing a sport, even when they are losing, is NOT the reason we are losing. We have been losing for the last three years because we don't have an OL capable of keeping a pocket for our QB to throw in. We have ben losing because our offensive depth at skill positions other than RB was critically low due to the scheme change. We are losing because our defense is on the field too much. We are losing because for whatever reason, a top DC as a HC didn't fix our defense. We are losing because we haven't established a healthy and capable DL. If you want to gripe about the REAL reasons we are losing, that is understandable. As it is, you sound like yet another old timer determined that your way is the absolute only way to do something.

Personally, I find your diatribe tiring, as it does absolutely nothing to fix the problems, and only serves to project your misery on others, which I think is the real motive. You are miserable so everyone else should be miserable or they aren't "real" GT fans, right? Well, I am not miserable. I am not pleased with CGC, and am on record from the very beginning saying I wasn't a fan of the hire, but he is the HC at GT, so he has my full unwavering support until he either is let go or turns into a complete moral failure ala George O'Leary. I don't wish for you, or any other GT fans, regardless of age, to disappear. We have too few fans as it is. What I wish is for our fans to quit acting like a three year old who isn't getting their way.

So AJ, unless someone on here is going to write a big check, no one here on either side of the Collins issue is going to "fix the problem." It sounds like you don't even want to hear from FANS of Georgia Tech who are frustrated and, yes, miserable with the state of our program as it has been led by Collins. Message boards are usually the place to discuss and grumble about things like that with fans of your team. Granted, some may agree and others may disagree, but I would thank that just about any program in the country, besides Alabama and Georgia, have fans griping about their program every day. Collins came in and did things his way, which I respect. I laugh at a lot of it, because it seems childish, but it's his job and his dream and good for him. So far, the results have been poor at best. Those of us who have been around for a long time recognize coaches who are either ill prepared or aren't ready for prime time (Lewis and Curry). If we can't at least comment on that, what good is even having this board?

I don't want this board to turn in to Stingtalk, with its constant put downs of people and their mothers, but some honest talk and some humor at times should be expected, as long as it doesn't cross the line. You are a moderator, which is great, but it does sound like you are trying to stop conversation from anyone who has anything negative to say about Collins and his methods. While it may not "fix the problem," it is nice to be able to blow off some steam some times when your program is at the lowest point it has been in about 100 years.

If Collins can turn it around, good for him. I will support our team and I want them to win every game. Maybe his grand experiment will work, but he's got about 10 more weeks to prove it. As long as people are providing reasonable opinions (and some possible humor to lighten the mood occasionally), I think all opinions should be welcome here.

Just my $0.02.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

So AJ, unless someone on here is going to write a big check, no one here on either side of the Collins issue is going to "fix the problem." It sounds like you don't even want to hear from FANS of Georgia Tech who are frustrated and, yes, miserable with the state of our program as it has been led by Collins. Message boards are usually the place to discuss and grumble about things like that with fans of your team. Granted, some may agree and others may disagree, but I would thank that just about any program in the country, besides Alabama and Georgia, have fans griping about their program every day. Collins came in and did things his way, which I respect. I laugh at a lot of it, because it seems childish, but it's his job and his dream and good for him. So far, the results have been poor at best. Those of us who have been around for a long time recognize coaches who are either ill prepared or aren't ready for prime time (Lewis and Curry). If we can't at least comment on that, what good is even having this board?

I don't want this board to turn in to Stingtalk, with its constant put downs of people and their mothers, but some honest talk and some humor at times should be expected, as long as it doesn't cross the line. You are a moderator, which is great, but it does sound like you are trying to stop conversation from anyone who has anything negative to say about Collins and his methods. While it may not "fix the problem," it is nice to be able to blow off some steam some times when your program is at the lowest point it has been in about 100 years.

If Collins can turn it around, good for him. I will support our team and I want them to win every game. Maybe his grand experiment will work, but he's got about 10 more weeks to prove it. As long as people are providing reasonable opinions (and some possible humor to lighten the mood occasionally), I think all opinions should be welcome here.

Just my $0.02.

So this is where I both agree and disagree with you. It will take some big checks to fix the problem, but Collins is not the problem. Collins is a symptom of the problem. The problem is we have a fan base that is convinced we are a single step down from the football factories in desirability to athletes and future coaches when in reality we are a few rungs down that ladder. We want proven P5 head coaches, but we aren't able to hire them because they aren't coming here. The ONLY way we are getting a proven P5 head coach is to open our wallets up and write blank checks with huge buyouts for longer than normal contracts, as well as funding for top notch assistants. If/when we fire CGC at the end of this season, we simply start this cycle all over again, hunting for a diamond in the rough and turning on it viciously the minute we realize we got exactly what we paid for. When you shop in bargain stores, you can't expect quality, and we have been bargain shoppers for a long time. Real questions need to be addressed before we fire and hire our next HC, but I doubt they will be brought forward. Instead, this December, we will have another fracturing of the fan base because people aren't happy that we couldn't lure the next big thing to GT with the money we have available.

As for differing opinions, I, and the other moderators, encourage a variety of opinions. What we push back again is the snarky hot takes better suited to a twitter drive by than a message board that is predicated on discussion. When all fonts are seeking is a mic drop moment it becomes wearisome. That's not what these threads are for and that's why we moderate them as we do. I tailgate with a former font that is as anti-CGC as they come. He's one of my good friends. I disagree with the vehemence he focuses on CGC, but I understand his frustration, as I understand yours. My point was, and continues to be, that you can be both frustrated and civil at the same time, and that's where the rub is. We aim for civility.

By the way, you owe us another penny for your thoughts, inflation and whatnot...

 

[ibeattetris]

Geoff, to my view, has never spoken in specific terms but rather, vague accolades; e.g., "elite program", "maximize effectiveness" etc. TStan isn't much better.

Do you actually know what is said between CGC and TStan or between TStan/CGC and boosters? CGC does not need to provide terms to us, as he is not beholden to us. CGC uses his time in front of microphones to recruit athletes to join the school, not to make us fans feel better about the direction of the program. Unless someone has inside information about the conversations being held behind closed doors, everything is just speculation.

 

[Vespidae]

Do you actually know what is said between CGC and TStan or between TStan/CGC and boosters? CGC does not need to provide terms to us, as he is not beholden to us. CGC uses his time in front of microphones to recruit athletes to join the school, not to make us fans feel better about the direction of the program. Unless someone has inside information about the conversations being held behind closed doors, everything is just speculation.

Last time I checked, the GTAA was asking fans to buys season tickets. And swag. And donate to the A-T. That means we are stakeholders, not potatoes.

You are right, he nor TStan have to speak to stakeholders. And they deserve the support they get. Managing from an ivory tower doesn’t get you very far.

 

[GoldZ]

TStan is the executive in charge. He is the top of the organization and responsible for resources and results. It's up to Cabrera and the BoT to hold him accountable.

Organization= the Institute.

 

[ibeattetris]

Last time I checked, the GTAA was asking fans to buys season tickets. And swag. And donate to the A-T. That means we are stakeholders, not potatoes.

You are right, he nor TStan have to speak to stakeholders. And they deserve the support they get. Managing from an ivory tower doesn’t get you very far.

I agree with you that someone should be setting the expectations, I just don't think it should be Collins (Collins and TStan hopefully set goals and expectations between themselves and Collins should be graded based on those). I feel like a coach should be responsible for recruiting players and winning football games. The AD should be responsible for figuring out how to help the coach do his job and to get as much money into the program as he can.

 

[GTLorenzo]

So this is where I both agree and disagree with you. It will take some big checks to fix the problem, but Collins is not the problem. Collins is a symptom of the problem. The problem is we have a fan base that is convinced we are a single step down from the football factories in desirability to athletes and future coaches when in reality we are a few rungs down that ladder. We want proven P5 head coaches, but we aren't able to hire them because they aren't coming here. The ONLY way we are getting a proven P5 head coach is to open our wallets up and write blank checks with huge buyouts for longer than normal contracts, as well as funding for top notch assistants. If/when we fire CGC at the end of this season, we simply start this cycle all over again, hunting for a diamond in the rough and turning on it viciously the minute we realize we got exactly what we paid for. When you shop in bargain stores, you can't expect quality, and we have been bargain shoppers for a long time. Real questions need to be addressed before we fire and hire our next HC, but I doubt they will be brought forward. Instead, this December, we will have another fracturing of the fan base because people aren't happy that we couldn't lure the next big thing to GT with the money we have available.

As for differing opinions, I, and the other moderators, encourage a variety of opinions. What we push back again is the snarky hot takes better suited to a twitter drive by than a message board that is predicated on discussion. When all fonts are seeking is a mic drop moment it becomes wearisome. That's not what these threads are for and that's why we moderate them as we do. I tailgate with a former font that is as anti-CGC as they come. He's one of my good friends. I disagree with the vehemence he focuses on CGC, but I understand his frustration, as I understand yours. My point was, and continues to be, that you can be both frustrated and civil at the same time, and that's where the rub is. We aim for civility.

By the way, you owe us another penny for your thoughts, inflation and whatnot...

So I will agree and disagree with you here. I think Collins is beyond just a symptom of the problem. I think he was likely pushed by some big dollar guys and that's the direction TStan went, in large part because he had been here before and the huge transition from Johnson. I think the 7 year contract was too much and, in all honesty, he was probably the sacrificial lamb after Johnson and the next guy will be in much better shape than Collins was in when he came.

I think sometimes it is good to have a connection to GT previously, so you will know what you're getting in to here, but I think that can also be a negative and limit us as to who we will look at for a hire. Further, as has been said over and over, Collins brought so much of the anger/hatred on himself ("not talking to you," Money Down, Juice Crew, sideline workouts, goofy clothes, etc.). If he had just marketed the team and program in a more than typical manner, but not the overly aggressive manner he did, he may not have lost so many people. Perhaps TStan told him, "you've got four years just to get your guys in and then we'll start the clock" and so he didn't care how it came off. But when you have major game management and preparation issues and are over the top in your mannerisms, you lose a lot of people.

I agree that we don't think we can do better. I think we can. I think the next hire, presuming we don't have a major turnaround this year is either Long or a proven G5 coach. Like I said, we've got more talent here than we did a couple of years ago, so the next guy will be in better shape. If the O looks good, maybe Long gets a look. If not, maybe some rising G5 coach can come in and turn us into an Iowa State, Minnesota, Kentucky type team.

Just my $0.02 + inflation.

 

[Vespidae]

Organization= the Institute.

Wrong. The organization = GTAA.

 

[Vespidae]

I agree with you that someone should be setting the expectations, I just don't think it should be Collins (Collins and TStan hopefully set goals and expectations between themselves and Collins should be graded based on those). I feel like a coach should be responsible for recruiting players and winning football games. The AD should be responsible for figuring out how to help the coach do his job and to get as much money into the program as he can.

Both of those are true. Tech published a strategic plan and laid out expectations and how they are measured. Traditionally, the BoT sets the vision and the AD, as the Executive, executes it. In most sports, the AD delegates that to the head of operations and/or the head coach. I don’t agree with that given the importance of football revenue, but that’s often the case.

 

[GoldZ]

Wrong. The organization = GTAA.

What does TOP Management mean to you? Do you think Presidents at most colleges who have D-1 programs just say Hi to the AD every so often at meetings?

 

[Vespidae]

What does TOP Management mean to you? Do you think Presidents at most colleges who have D-1 programs just say Hi to the AD every so often at meetings?

GTAA is the sole authority of athletics at Georgia Tech. By state law. TStan does not report to the Hill. He reports to the GTAA BoT.

Is this true at Notre Dame? No. University of Tennessee? No. Both of THOSE schools have a governance model where the athletics dept reports directly to the university leadership.

Tech does not have that governance model.

 

[forensicbuzz]

GTAA is the sole authority of athletics at Georgia Tech. By state law. TStan does not report to the Hill. He reports to the GTAA BoT.

Is this true at Notre Dame? No. University of Tennessee? No. Both of THOSE schools have a governance model where the athletics dept reports directly to the university leadership.

Tech does not have that governance model.

Who is the Chairman of the GTAA Board of Trustees? What is his day job?

 

[Vespidae]

Who is the Chairman of the GTAA Board of Trustees? What is his day job?

Cabrera. So what? The GTAA runs athletics. That Cabrera is on the board doesn't change that.

 

[takethepoints]

All good points, but Leadership trumps metrics and models with measurable easy to understand goals that matter to the organization.

Yes. I've seen this in my work too. The problem comes when you get leaders who are more interested in their own power than in realistic goal fulfillment. You can get some real distortions cropping up when that happens. At my college we had an analyst who made regular predictions of freshman enrollment based on a rather simple regression model. He was always close to the actual number. But our president was interested in "managing by goals" and set enrollment goals that increased every year. Problem = there was no reason to believe that we could do that and we never did. My friend the analyst kept pointing this out and he got more and more on the outs as a result. And his predictions continued to be right. And the budgets put together on the goals led to yearly shortfalls. And to yearly spontaneous, non-data driven decisions about programs and personnel arbitrarily made by our president. And the analyst left rater then put up with it further.