GT - ND postgame thread

SOWEGA Jacket

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The offense doesn't have to be deadly for us to win. We shouldn't need a deadly offense to beat Cuse or Boston College...just an adequate one. An adequate defense might help too. After last year I didn't realistically think we were going to magically go from 3-9 to 9-3. But maybe 5-7 or 6-6 might be nice? Right now feels like another 3-9. 5-7 would feel like winning the damn conference right about now, so hopefully that comes through.
I disagree. With the rules of today you gotta score, score, and score. Even Saban realized that and turned Bama into a high scoring machine. UGA and ND are the last 2 factories who still haven’t figured it out and surprise, they haven’t won in a long time.
 
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Funny thing about football in particular.
Speed is natural but it can also be developed
Strength can be natural but it can also be built
Smarts are natural but with getting older come wisdom, ie where to get to on a play , particularly on defense.
Quickness is an ability, but it can be improved.
Height, well you get what you get.
Weight, this can be changed up and down.
Aggressiveness, it is natural but can be injected. I believe all Football players at this level are aggressive or they would have quit long before.

So Coaching up has a lot of meanings. That is why it pains me to see some really good players we have not even being used. BJS, Oliver etc. That is also why I do not believe in the star ratings of kids coming out of high school. There are no real data to judge one kid over another, and all the attributes above can be gained through...."Coaching Up."
 

slugboy

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Players are evaluated on several things, knowledge and skill are two of the biggest. In theory a smart player, known as having a high FB IQ can be a poor performer in that they are slow or physically outmatched..........

Dont all coaches teach gap responsibility, lanes, coverage responsibility etc.... ? A 4-3 is a 4-3 under every coach isn’t it ?
In some systems, you will have different responsibilities, maybe even to the point of occupying multiple blockers instead of going into a gap. A 3-4 can vary wildly depending on the implementation and so can a 4-3. However, I don’t think that answers your question
I’ll put it up front so you can skip if you want—I’m not sure how long it’s been since we played fundamentally sound.
Not only have we not had much defensive continuity, but I think we’ve covered up our problems for so long we’ve just never fixed what we needed to.
Have players been going to the correct gaps and taking good angles, and otherwise playing good fundamental defense sometime in the recent past?
Nate Woody’s defense ranked behind Roof’s by most measures. Most of us were hoping for improvement in year 2 with Woody, but his first year was a regression. I don’t recall people calling out bad fundamentals at that time, but I don’t have any evidence of any improvement in any area during that time.
The Roof era was rife with complaints about both scheme and fundamentals (bad angles, bad tackling, wrong gap, etc.)
Charles Kelley was a short term interim under whom we seemed to moved up to at least middling play. We didn’t offer him the DC role, and he went to FSU. I heard fewer complaints during his tenure, but still plenty.
Groh, for a brief time, had good fundamentals and flashes of scheme doing good things. The flashes all disappeared and then things degraded.
Before that was Wommack. We saw occasional good play during that time, and he still had players schooled under Tenuta who played well. He wasn’t impressive and you still had people finding issues with basics.
To go much deeper I’d have to go into the film vault and review some things, but I feel fairly confident the last time we saw good fundamentals on defense might have been Kelley, but definitely was Tenuta (who would take some big risks that might seem too big to some).
Tenuta was the last DC where I heard a pro coach say his players could be drafted knowing how to play and having good technique
 

Deleted member 2897

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I truly believe that CGC won't let his ego be tested in this case. Now, I do believe that Sims is our QB of the future. However, I don't buy that he's our best option right now. Not yet.

Why has CGC swapped so many other players? Our offense is so much better than last year it’s not even in the same zip code. If other QBs aren’t getting playing time, it’s because they haven’t shown enough in practice to earn it. It’s as simple as that.
 

jgtengineer

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It’s also the most ignorant.
Doesnt matter cant fo anything without money and people arent going to buy a bad product. Super doners might give an extra year since collins was their pick and is blowing the right smoke up the right *******s but when people arent buying in in year 3 and 4 when he has no excuses... Well oh well.
 

roedeo

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Ok there has been some really great comments in this thread, some maybe not so much, some comments made while under the influence of a foreign substance or while hungover.

At this point there’s absolutely nothing you can do that’s going to change the past, tomorrow is not promised, so all you have is today (or tonight). It’s time to move on from the loss. Do something nice for someone else before the next game.

Have a good week all! THWg

1604284597857.jpeg
 
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Please explain how Chan Gailey recruited the Law Firm of Morgan, Johnson, Walker, & Richard (Wes Durham voice of course)?

If we weren't an option Team and if the previous HC was a better Recruiter we get both Tomlinson & Tuitt, Tuitt was 6-6 320lbs? Tomlinson 6-3 325lbs both are on their 2nd contracts in the NFL

Every GT Fan need to drill this into their psyche:

80 of the Top100 HS FB Recruits in Georgia are Academic Qualifiers for GT, instead of sitting around being lazy and hoping for some unique offense to save our azzes we need to make GT FB more attractive to those guys that can graduate from GT and play at a "high level"

Collins is doing that, and I'm gonna have his back and the next HC's back that understands that

Too many GT Fans suffer from "Recruiting PTSD"

The players are out there, they are nearby & very close, we just have to get them to want to stay at home

If you talk to HS Coaches, the absolute worst thing to happen to GT FB was to run the Option for 11 straight years, for 11 straight years Academically Qualified Top100 players in GA never even gave us a 2nd look

Collins has to undo all of that DAMAGE

In the mind of a HS Recruit, going to the NFL trumps winning 7 Games losing to Dook every yr and then going to a Dec 28th Bowl Game, which was 8 of the previous HC's 11 seasons

Fools errand or not, that's the only way for GT to proceed, ask yourself what Stanford would be doing if they were in Midtown Atlanta and 80 of the Top100 nearby Recruits were Academic Qualifiers

I know what they wouldn't be doing, they wouldn't be begging for some crappy option Offense
good God, cry us all a river......
 

jgtengineer

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good God, cry us all a river......

What I don't get is why they don't just tell the truth.

CPJ Bowl and their dates.
Peach Bowl - NYE (Duke win)
Orange bowl - Jan 5 (Duke Win)
Independence - Dec 28 (Duke win)
Sun Bowl - Dec 31 (Duke win)
Sun Bowl - Dec 31 (Duke Win)
Music City Bowl Dec 30 (Duke Win)
Orange Bowl - dec 31st (Duke Loss well that took awhile)
No Bowl (Duke loss but we still beat FSU in a **** year)
Gator bowl Dec 31 (Duke Win)
No Bowl Duke Loss
Quick Lane Dec 26 (Duke Loss)

Total bowls not on NYE or after
3 (2 missed years)
Total Duke Losses
4

Total times a duke loss happened and we played a bowl on a day earlier than DEC 31
1

Facts don't care about your feelings.
 

Technut1990

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Thanks Slugboy you really helped me look at it differently than I have been, its still worrisome given the fact it sounds like consistent defensive philosophy is the answer which essentially means staying with a DC long enough to develop routine. That’s an issue because we are in a results oriented world, which probably explains college footballs trend toward high scores.

I guess it’s just a close your eyes and swing baseball analogy. If we give up 40 a game as we take 4-5 years for us to teach and fit players into a DC’s system then the only way he is around to see the result of developing his system is to have an offense that’s scoring 50 a game.

tough position for a team rebuilding its entire offense. Man it sounds like we are in a catch 22 if you think about it. We as fans demand results but it’s totally against our nature to wait for the personnel and learning that’s required to get it.

The number of DCs we’ve been through is probably the problem with one of our LBers. Being around for that number of defensive styles, coaching and philosophical approaches has screwed his head on backwards. I’m not trying to be super critical but that would explain the confused play that I see from him.
Sounds like going back to basics is the only answer for our defense. We have to have the players for the defense via recruiting and then they have to start off with the fundamentals before the complicated stuff can be installed. That means we have to have a DC here long enough to do it. That may be a huge ask in today’s world.
 

JacketOff

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What I don't get is why they don't just tell the truth.

CPJ Bowl and their dates.
Peach Bowl - NYE (Duke win)
Orange bowl - Jan 5 (Duke Win)
Independence - Dec 28 (Duke win)
Sun Bowl - Dec 31 (Duke win)
Sun Bowl - Dec 31 (Duke Win)
Music City Bowl Dec 30 (Duke Win)
Orange Bowl - dec 31st (Duke Loss well that took awhile)
No Bowl (Duke loss but we still beat FSU in a **** year)
Gator bowl Dec 31 (Duke Win)
No Bowl Duke Loss
Quick Lane Dec 26 (Duke Loss)

Total bowls not on NYE or after
3 (2 missed years)
Total Duke Losses
4

Total times a duke loss happened and we played a bowl on a day earlier than DEC 31
1

Facts don't care about your feelings.
So what you’re saying is... CPJ’s teams were regressing? Also, not sure why a NYE or later bowl is any sort of measuring stick? But losing to Duke 4 out of 5 years is a pretty good measuring stick. And the measurement said that Tech was getting worse.
 

jgtengineer

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So what you’re saying is... CPJ’s teams were regressing? Also, not sure why a NYE or later bowl is any sort of measuring stick? But losing to Duke 4 out of 5 years is a pretty good measuring stick. And the measurement said that Tech was getting worse.

To be honest I am not sure why the date of the bowl mattered either but the original post was using it as some sort of measuring stick.

Losing to Duke was pretty much evident that cutcliffe treated the game as his superbowl toward the end there and probably still does.

Not that he needs to spend any extra time focusing on us anymore no one does.

"In the mind of a HS Recruit, going to the NFL trumps winning 7 Games losing to Dook every yr and then going to a Dec 28th Bowl Game, which was 8 of the previous HC's 11 seasons" This was the statement the juiceisloose said which was flat out false.
 

slugboy

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Thanks Slugboy you really helped me look at it differently than I have been, its still worrisome given the fact it sounds like consistent defensive philosophy is the answer which essentially means staying with a DC long enough to develop routine. That’s an issue because we are in a results oriented world, which probably explains college footballs trend toward high scores.

I guess it’s just a close your eyes and swing baseball analogy. If we give up 40 a game as we take 4-5 years for us to teach and fit players into a DC’s system then the only way he is around to see the result of developing his system is to have an offense that’s scoring 50 a game.

tough position for a team rebuilding its entire offense. Man it sounds like we are in a catch 22 if you think about it. We as fans demand results but it’s totally against our nature to wait for the personnel and learning that’s required to get it.

The number of DCs we’ve been through is probably the problem with one of our LBers. Being around for that number of defensive styles, coaching and philosophical approaches has screwed his head on backwards. I’m not trying to be super critical but that would explain the confused play that I see from him.
Sounds like going back to basics is the only answer for our defense. We have to have the players for the defense via recruiting and then they have to start off with the fundamentals before the complicated stuff can be installed. That means we have to have a DC here long enough to do it. That may be a huge ask in today’s world.
I was hoping the defense was a quick fix. I’ve been hoping that for a while.
That doesn’t mean our scheme is the best one to roll out with, especially against schools like BC and Pitt that push you around a lot. Thacker and Collins had a better ranked defense than us at Temple, but couldn’t hold UCF in check, and they also lost to Duke in the bowl game after Collins left. I’m starting to think scheme is down on the list of things to worry about, though.
I also don’t think it’s all on the DC. Some of the things we brought in, like the performance sensors the players wear, might be a good start. We might have needed spring practice more than our opponents.
Maybe some of what we’re going through is that we have a tougher schedule than most. We should still be seeing progress, and there are spots I think we’re behind schedule. I’d hoped to see a lot of speed and ball hawking in the secondary this year, and haven’t yet. I’d hoped to see faster and less hesitant linebacker play.
We’re short a few players in the interior DL (or were early on), and that hasn’t helped, but lots of teams have a gap to fill for a bit
Let’s hope some of the remaining schedule helps us get well on defense. The players need a good game more than we do
Maybe I’ll look at the film and see what happened
 

4shotB

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I guess it’s just a close your eyes and swing baseball analogy.

The number of DCs we’ve been through is probably the problem with one of our LBers.

I am sick and tired of the 'swing and miss" philosophy in regards to our coaches. I think CPJ is highly respected as a football guy and intelligent man in general by the vast majority. If he cannot identify and pick a guy who is going to be succesful at the DC job I wonder just who can? You might say he had budget constraints but GT will always have those relative to the programs who have the recognizable brand name. We aren't hiring Venables for instance. Churning coaches in the hope to catch lightning in a bottle with a young, unkown is EXACTLY why we are in the shape we are in now. It buys you temporary hope with the idiots in the fan base who "demand" change but it is foolishness.

I have maintained there is a fundamental and root cause issue that is bigger than the head coach. Thought that way for a long time now. I am hoping that TStan sees that (I am sure he does) and is up to the task of fixing it or we will continue to bumble along and change coaches every 5 or 6 years (more frequently for the coordinators).
 

Pointer

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I am sick and tired of the 'swing and miss" philosophy in regards to our coaches. I think CPJ is highly respected as a football guy and intelligent man in general by the vast majority. If he cannot identify and pick a guy who is going to be succesful at the DC job I wonder just who can? You might say he had budget constraints but GT will always have those relative to the programs who have the recognizable brand name. We aren't hiring Venables for instance. Churning coaches in the hope to catch lightning in a bottle with a young, unkown is EXACTLY why we are in the shape we are in now. It buys you temporary hope with the idiots in the fan base who "demand" change but it is foolishness.

I have maintained there is a fundamental and root cause issue that is bigger than the head coach. Thought that way for a long time now. I am hoping that TStan sees that (I am sure he does) and is up to the task of fixing it or we will continue to bumble along and change coaches every 5 or 6 years (more frequently for the coordinators).
I agree before any coaching change decision is made, we need to fix many other things. Fact is most coaches at Tech have not played on a level footing and it's been getting worse since the time CGO left. Hopefully TSTAN makes it easier from here out, but Covid has got to be making things even harder.
 

Technut1990

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I am sick and tired of the 'swing and miss" philosophy in regards to our coaches. I think CPJ is highly respected as a football guy and intelligent man in general by the vast majority. If he cannot identify and pick a guy who is going to be succesful at the DC job I wonder just who can? You might say he had budget constraints but GT will always have those relative to the programs who have the recognizable brand name. We aren't hiring Venables for instance. Churning coaches in the hope to catch lightning in a bottle with a young, unkown is EXACTLY why we are in the shape we are in now. It buys you temporary hope with the idiots in the fan base who "demand" change but it is foolishness.

I have maintained there is a fundamental and root cause issue that is bigger than the head coach. Thought that way for a long time now. I am hoping that TStan sees that (I am sure he does) and is up to the task of fixing it or we will continue to bumble along and change coaches every 5 or 6 years (more frequently for the coordinators).

I think the problem is that the demand for production, which even the most cerebral among us eventually give in to Is so controlling. Groh was thought to be the hire. Coupled with a high output offense most of us were very happy when he was hired but if I remember correctly his defenses were too complicated and had to be simplified Because they were always out of position and couldn’t stop anyone. The swing and miss issue comes from the pressure to win, it can be an optical illusion, everyone is in a hurry. Could Groh have fixed our defense given 5 years ? Would Venables produce a first class defense fast enough for us to keep him ? Sure money is an issue, everyone goes where the money is but on this topic I think time is the bigger problem. Winners attract other successful people, just like teams but the opposite is true also. If we do get a great DC we won’t know it for 2-3 years but if we give a bad DC 2-3 years, well we won’t know he is bad for that long either. If Collins can recruit four star defensive guys it will be easier to see (for a controlled measurement), it would be easier to evaluate DC ability. The bigger question is will we, or can we -emotionally, give anyone 2-5 years to show they are worth keeping ? Everything being equal we should start seeing the trend in the 3rd year, if 3 star players are looking lost then it’s the coach, if they are doing the right things but just outmatched then we should give more time and see if the 4 stars coming in are the answer. Right now I see both player types on our defense Some are getting beat on plays by future NFL players others are getting beat by 3rd string NCAA players.

I personally don’t think we have to pay big money to get the guy, I think we will have to pay big money to keep him.
 
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takethepoints

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I was hoping the defense was a quick fix. I’ve been hoping that for a while.
That doesn’t mean our scheme is the best one to roll out with, especially against schools like BC and Pitt that push you around a lot. Thacker and Collins had a better ranked defense than us at Temple, but couldn’t hold UCF in check, and they also lost to Duke in the bowl game after Collins left. I’m starting to think scheme is down on the list of things to worry about, though.
I also don’t think it’s all on the DC. Some of the things we brought in, like the performance sensors the players wear, might be a good start. We might have needed spring practice more than our opponents.
Maybe some of what we’re going through is that we have a tougher schedule than most. We should still be seeing progress, and there are spots I think we’re behind schedule. I’d hoped to see a lot of speed and ball hawking in the secondary this year, and haven’t yet. I’d hoped to see faster and less hesitant linebacker play.
We’re short a few players in the interior DL (or were early on), and that hasn’t helped, but lots of teams have a gap to fill for a bit
Let’s hope some of the remaining schedule helps us get well on defense. The players need a good game more than we do
Maybe I’ll look at the film and see what happened
We have actually way "out recruited" on D over the last few years; a good number of Paul's (well, ok, Ted's) 4 star recruits were on D. We've had some injuries/deaths this year and last (Brandon, then CK) that really hurt, but we have the players to do well on D. I also agree that scheme isn't the main problem; we've been unable to stop anybody even half-way good much this year and that has a tendency to snowball. But …

"Maybe some of what we’re going through is that we have a tougher schedule than most." Boy, are you ever right. The Season of Doom has proven every bit as bad as some of us predicted it would be. We keep playing really good teams, often back to back. Further, we are playing them with O and D schemes where they clearly outmatch us. We might be able to eke out another 2 wins going forward, but the rest of the season does't look a lot more promising then the first part.
 

takethepoints

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My tv and net have been out for the last couple of days, so I won't do any big whoop analysis of what happened Saturday. The simple answer is that we ran into a team that is a lot better then we are. They didn't take many risks; long methodical drives for the most part. The had 9 TFLs and 5 sacks. We gave up over 400 yards total offense again. They held Tech to 88 yards rushing. And they followed a long Kelly tradition of not running up the score on teams ND is beating. (I like that, btw; he refuses to play to the press agencies like Dabo or Kirby.)

Oh, and it was nice to see C'bo, albeit in the wrong color uniform. I think he would have been a good RB for us. Too bad he went up there; his light has been under a basket for four years.
 

Wrecked

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And they followed a long Kelly tradition of not running up the score on teams ND is beating. (I like that, btw; he refuses to play to the press agencies like Dabo or Kirby.)
I assume this is TIC as ND hurried the last snap of the game to try and score another TD from the one yard line when they could have let the clock expire. Proud of our guys for stoning them. Kelly is a POS.
 

SOWEGA Jacket

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Kelly is garbage. He can’t run up the score because he is playing an old outdated version of college football. Sure, it works against 85% of the teams he plays because he gets stud linemen. But we all know (seen it many times before) when he matches up with a team who has lines like he does that his lack of speed by the skilled position players always whips him. Clemson will beat him with their backup QB because as usual Norte Dame will not have an answer for Clemson’s speed. Clemson and Bama will both simply outscore the plodding ND offense. How the smart folks at ND haven’t figured out to recruit speed and dual threat QB’s is beyond me. Then again, I’ve been to South Bend and I can understand why the elite guys would rather play in Columbus or anywhere down south.
 
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