GT Hoops General Topics

[CuseJacket]

We could probably put 5 dwarfs out there and draw about the same.

If we're being honest with ourselves, this would probably result in a sellout. Or maybe I'm a terrible (or supportive) person? I really had to take a minute and think about this.

 

[Jim Prather]

Things weren’t nearly as bleak when Hewitt took over as it was Pastner got here. He was one of the best recruiters in the game for sure, but give him the same project as what Josh inherited and he may not have done as well here. It’s really hard to say.

It had been almost 7 years since our prior NCAA appearance when Josh was hired. GT still had some name recognition back then. Not to mention the recruiting “game” changed as well.

I’m not on a crusade to defend Pastner, but this is like comparing teams from different eras. There’s too many variables to do so.

One other thing that we agree on is that **** needs to get better and fast!

I don’t normally post I’m the b-ball forum but is the issue that we are playing “clean” in a dirty sport? Just Look at uGA... They haven’t ever been as relevant as Tech, Crean is just as goofy as Pastner, and they are recruiting lights out all of a sudden. There is no way that happens without someone buying players

 

[kg01]

I don’t normally post I’m the b-ball forum but is the issue that we are playing “clean” in a dirty sport? Just Look at uGA... They haven’t ever been as relevant as Tech, Crean is just as goofy as Pastner, and they are recruiting lights out all of a sudden. There is no way that happens without someone buying players

That's a big part of it. For me, in addition to all that (which is huge all on it's own), I think there are some coaching deficiencies going on.

 

[Connell62]

I don’t normally post I’m the b-ball forum but is the issue that we are playing “clean” in a dirty sport? Just Look at uGA... They haven’t ever been as relevant as Tech, Crean is just as goofy as Pastner, and they are recruiting lights out all of a sudden. There is no way that happens without someone buying players

It's definitely a variable, but as I mentioned, there are many, and this is just one component of our struggles from a recruiting perspective IMO.

While I don't think that GT is willing to play dirty or pay players, we have tried to at least play on the fringe (Wendell Carter saga) and it has backfired. We just aren't good at that game. I may be at risk of oversimplifying things here, but in addition to putting together a good product on the court and WINNING, there is one other equally important step. Cast a wider net and offer more players.

I've been pretty vocal about # 1 and I think that we are finally in position to have a breakthrough type season. With a couple of breaks and an emergence or two, it could be a really fantastic year. As far as # 2, I think that dtm pointed this out last year. We did a great job of evaluating some underrated players, got them all on campus, but each one saw their stock skyrocket making it more difficult. When we missed, we didn't have enough good options for Plan B's.

Someone referenced the recent success of Collins earlier in this thread, and I think that is the one thing that I have noticed about the new football staff is the volume of offers. They've offered so many talented kids and they're recruiting all of them extremely hard, that they're going to land a strong class. When I look for areas of improvement for the staff, I think that is at the top of the list.

 

[LargeFO]

I don’t normally post I’m the b-ball forum but is the issue that we are playing “clean” in a dirty sport? Just Look at uGA... They haven’t ever been as relevant as Tech, Crean is just as goofy as Pastner, and they are recruiting lights out all of a sudden. There is no way that happens without someone buying players

True, although I’d classify crean as more creepy than goofy.

 

[YlJacket]

It's definitely a variable, but as I mentioned, there are many, and this is just one component of our struggles from a recruiting perspective IMO.

While I don't think that GT is willing to play dirty or pay players, we have tried to at least play on the fringe (Wendell Carter saga) and it has backfired. We just aren't good at that game. I may be at risk of oversimplifying things here, but in addition to putting together a good product on the court and WINNING, there is one other equally important step. Cast a wider net and offer more players.

I've been pretty vocal about # 1 and I think that we are finally in position to have a breakthrough type season. With a couple of breaks and an emergence or two, it could be a really fantastic year. As far as # 2, I think that dtm pointed this out last year. We did a great job of evaluating some underrated players, got them all on campus, but each one saw their stock skyrocket making it more difficult. When we missed, we didn't have enough good options for Plan B's.

Someone referenced the recent success of Collins earlier in this thread, and I think that is the one thing that I have noticed about the new football staff is the volume of offers. They've offered so many talented kids and they're recruiting all of them extremely hard, that they're going to land a strong class. When I look for areas of improvement for the staff, I think that is at the top of the list.

I fully agree that at this point we need some success to help change the trajectory of our recruiting efforts. I think that is a product of the fact that CJP has now been here and established a perception (real or not) of a program with issues on and off the court, not being real "cool" and having teams in the bottom quarter of the league. Crean and Collins either don't have a record at all or only have one year so are not pegged by the record. So they get to the sell the "sizzle" of potential and energy like an IPO while CJP is now in the druggery of having to sell his record with lackluster quarterly earnings. (just a stock selling analogy for some attempt at humor here). CJP had his time to be able to sell "sizzle" but for a lot of the reasons discussed got sidetracked and wasn't able to convey that to recruits and couldn't close. Lot of good ideas like the concert, but a litany of problems, staff turnover and not making the tourney are what folks/recruits know now. And few are willing to take the time to look and see how hot his seat may or in reality may not be.

CJP had his opportunity to sell the sizzle/future but now has to sell reality. Much tougher sell to make.

 

[RamblinRed]

CJP has definitely moved into the having to sell what you have rather than the selling your vision phase.

I think alot of good points have been made.

One thing i've said for years now - is poor recruiting here more a function of the coach or the school. Honestly I lean more toward the school (though I think both are in play). if Penny was here do I think he will recruit as well as he is at Memphis - no I don't. Do i think he would recruit better than Josh, yes I do.

I have no doubt UGA is playing 'the game'. There have been plenty of whispers about that in the HS basketball world. Heck, most of the SEC is now playing that game in basketball.

it's gotten so hard to compare eras as the recruiting world has changed so much. 10 yrs ago AAU basketball was still a thing - big AAU tournaments in Orlando and what not. Now it isn't really AAU basketball - it is shoe company basketball. They have completely taken over that world. The percentage of players that are likely being paid directly or those around them are being paid is likely much larger.

Is GT perfect- obviously not - just look at the Wendell Carter situation. But do I think GT is out there putting 'strong ***' offers together - no I don't. It puts whoever coaches here at a disadvantage.

 

[LargeFO]

CJP has definitely moved into the having to sell what you have rather than the selling your vision phase.

I think alot of good points have been made.

One thing i've said for years now - is poor recruiting here more a function of the coach or the school. Honestly I lean more toward the school (though I think both are in play). if Penny was here do I think he will recruit as well as he is at Memphis - no I don't. Do i think he would recruit better than Josh, yes I do.

I have no doubt UGA is playing 'the game'. There have been plenty of whispers about that in the HS basketball world. Heck, most of the SEC is now playing that game in basketball.

it's gotten so hard to compare eras as the recruiting world has changed so much. 10 yrs ago AAU basketball was still a thing - big AAU tournaments in Orlando and what not. Now it isn't really AAU basketball - it is shoe company basketball. They have completely taken over that world. The percentage of players that are likely being paid directly or those around them are being paid is likely much larger.

Is GT perfect- obviously not - just look at the Wendell Carter situation. But do I think GT is out there putting 'strong ***' offers together - no I don't. It puts whoever coaches here at a disadvantage.

Yep, and this is why at least for me personally I follow CBB less and less by the year. It's just became rather pointless for me.

 

[g0lftime]

I mean, This is just supporting in order to support the program. You are holding the football coach responsible for selling the basketball program? No doubt Collins has done a great job for football but selling basketball to kids in Atlanta should be like selling fire insurance to people in Los Angeles.

Pastner is a bad fit for Atlanta. That’s my opinion at the moment. I’ve made this comment with some others on the board privately and I’m comfortable saying it now. Pastner is awkward while LaBarrie and Hardy were good assistants for him while Reveno can build a rocket ship out of tin foil and a bedroom fan.

Someday I’ll explain this theory further but I’m not ready to do so now. Let’s schedule it for 5/1/21

Didn't mean for my comment about Collins helping Pastner to be that controversial but he sure could give some advice on what he has found that works on selling the city to recruits. The entire AA should want to help all the programs where they can. It is good for all of them.

 

[MiracleWhips]

As far as recruiting goes, I really believe that his main selling point will need to be player development. Guys like Banks, Wright, Devoe, and Moore should really be able to help sell the program IMO, especially if they all take another step into their development this offseason. Just my opinion.

 

[g0lftime]

Pastner needs to tell them to stay and play for their city. Keep it in the 404.

 

[BeeRBee]

CJP has definitely moved into the having to sell what you have rather than the selling your vision phase.

I think alot of good points have been made.

One thing i've said for years now - is poor recruiting here more a function of the coach or the school. Honestly I lean more toward the school (though I think both are in play). if Penny was here do I think he will recruit as well as he is at Memphis - no I don't. Do i think he would recruit better than Josh, yes I do.

I have no doubt UGA is playing 'the game'. There have been plenty of whispers about that in the HS basketball world. Heck, most of the SEC is now playing that game in basketball.

it's gotten so hard to compare eras as the recruiting world has changed so much. 10 yrs ago AAU basketball was still a thing - big AAU tournaments in Orlando and what not. Now it isn't really AAU basketball - it is shoe company basketball. They have completely taken over that world. The percentage of players that are likely being paid directly or those around them are being paid is likely much larger.

Is GT perfect- obviously not - just look at the Wendell Carter situation. But do I think GT is out there putting 'strong ***' offers together - no I don't. It puts whoever coaches here at a disadvantage.

In addition to the other good points that have been made, I have a personal theory that recruiting to GT is just different, and until a coach is here and experiencing it they can't really understand it. I'm not saying it's harder than any other school - every place has advantages and disadvantages - but GT and the academic atmosphere is just different. All coaches have supreme self-confidence, but convincing a kid to come hoop for four years in Starkville is different than convincing them to come and put extra effort into academics taking away from time spent on basketball (or other things.)

As noted, Pastner and staff seem to have been very good at spotting talent early. What they perhaps have not been as good at is evaluating the likelihood of those players wanting to come to GT once they get other offers, but this is a key factor as well. It's an open question whether they are getting better at this with experience, and the staff turnover can't be helping. Also as noted by others, better results could help make GT more attractive to some of these recruits.

Under my theory, Collins has a massive advantage in having recruited to Tech before, and in building a staff with some experience with GT. Ultimately either Pastner will figure it out, or he won't make it. I do think this argues for a little more patience with coaches here.

 

[kg01]

Pastner needs to tell them to stay and play for their city. Keep it in the 404.

Yeah, I'm sure that'd go over reallll natural. Turn up, CPast ...

 

[AUFC]

Pastner needs to tell them to stay and play for their city. Keep it in the 404.

If I’m an elite high school basketball player in the metro Atlanta region and a goofy, short, curly haired white super religious guy who never swears tells me to “keep it in the 404”, I’m laughing his *** all the way back to Henry County.

 

[RyanS12]

If I’m an elite high school basketball player in the metro Atlanta region and a goofy, short, curly haired white super religious guy who never swears tells me to “keep it in the 404”, I’m laughing his *** all the way back to Henry County.

Pretty much this! Look, I know plenty of people that don’t drink, swear and are religious and I’m perfectly fine with that (It’s not me but whatever) but JP does come off a little “different” to me. Almost too “corny” I guess is the word to describe him.

 

[Techster]

If I’m an elite high school basketball player in the metro Atlanta region and a goofy, short, curly haired white super religious guy who never swears tells me to “keep it in the 404”, I’m laughing his *** all the way back to Henry County.

How about if you're an elite high school football player and an over excited white guy with a receding hair line and belly tells you to come rep the 404 all the while wearing highwater pants and holding a styrofoam Waffle House cup?

 

[LargeFO]

How about if you're an elite high school football player and an over excited white guy with a receding hair line and belly tells you to come rep the 404 all the while wearing highwater pants and holding a styrofoam Waffle House cup?

Well let’s be honest I don’t think that’s what he does. He does use creative hashtags on twitter and the like but I’m pretty confident he doesn’t go into anyone’s living room shouting come join the 404. And you can tell he is up on the music scene, what markets well, etc . That’s really all it takes with the recruits. I just don’t think that kind of thing comes easy for Pastner, which is ok.

 

[Techster]

Well let’s be honest I don’t think that’s what he does. He does use creative hashtags on twitter and the like but I’m pretty confident he doesn’t go into anyone’s living room shouting come join the 404. And you can tell he is up on the music scene, what markets well, etc . That’s really all it takes with the recruits. I just don’t think that kind of thing comes easy for Pastner, which is ok.

Oh, I was just being facetious.

 

[AUFC]

I get your point but they just have different brands. Josh Pastner is himself and Geoff Collins is himself. It’s a total intangible combination of nature and nurture that gives each their several-dimension personality type. We aren’t in the room for Pastner’s recruiting sessions but I’d guess he stays true to himself. I haven’t seen anything over the past few years that indicates he has that “it” factor that CGC has which has helped CGC land prized recruits. I have to imagine Pastner doesn’t do too much selling but lays out what we all know 4 years at Georgia Tech does for you and tells them to come meet the guys they’d be playing with.

We never saw ESPN articles about rebrands of the program when Pastner arrived. I do fully trust Todd Stansbury to find us that guy when I feel he is tasked with it in a couple years. The big question is: will the money be there?

 

[gte447f]

Recruits go on visits to other big time programs and see rabid crowds, at a GT game they may see 40% of the stands filled with opposing teams colors. Let’s call it like it is....

It may seem trivial, but I guarantee this reality affects at least some recruits in a pretty impactful way, because as a dyed in the wool GT bball fan and season ticket holder, I have been at several home games in the last few years where the vibe felt like a hostile road environment and made you want to sneak out a side entrance real quick (for the record I have never left a game early). If I felt this way, I guarantee you the recruits did as well. Unfortunately, the only way I see to get more enthusiastic GT fans in the building is to win and be relevant, so this one, like a lot of the other factors affecting GT bball seems like a catch 22.