Game 4 Georgia Tech @ Wake Forest (-7)

[AugustaSwarm]

Is the starter already doing the best he can? Is his backup going to be any better? The question is still not answered. You can hold the man pulling the strings responsible, but if he's already getting the most he can out of the starter, who's doing his best, and if the backup can't do any better, then replacing the coach is just spinning your wheels to no avail. And as has already been pointed out, firing a coach for something beyond his control could well have unintended adverse consequences.

I understand that nobody is going to use the "less able" player. But isn't the role of the defensive coordinator to find ways to execute the game plan? If a player can't do what's being asked, then the options are:

A.) Use a different player
B.) Change the scheme
C.) Change nothing, because the results are acceptable

If A isn't an option because the backup is much worse, then what else can be done? I don't think option C is viable when we rank at the bottom of all college football - much lower than most G5 programs.

It seems that something will end up giving - either something suddenly clicks with the players or something suddenly changes with the coaches. Whether that's change of personnel or scheme, something's gotta give.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

I understand that nobody is going to use the "less able" player. But isn't the role of the defensive coordinator to find ways to execute the game plan? If a player can't do what's being asked, then the options are:

A.) Use a different player
B.) Change the scheme
C.) Change nothing, because the results are acceptable

If A isn't an option because the backup is much worse, then what else can be done? I don't think option C is viable when we rank at the bottom of all college football - much lower than most G5 programs.

It seems that something will end up giving - either something suddenly clicks with the players or something suddenly changes with the coaches. Whether that's change of personnel or scheme, something's gotta give.

Option D.) Keep working within the scheme until the players begin to execute it. This is what I think is going on.

FWIW, Louisville is a good team and Ole Miss might be the best team in the SEC West this year. We have new guys in key positions and we've played two very good teams. While there are nits to be picked about our SC State performance, the D did what they were supposed to do in that game.

Before we wear out our knees on jerky overreactions to early season failures in games every expert predicted we would lose, let's give the coaches a chance to do their job and develop players as the season progresses.

 

[bobongo]

I understand that nobody is going to use the "less able" player. But isn't the role of the defensive coordinator to find ways to execute the game plan? If a player can't do what's being asked, then the options are:

A.) Use a different player
B.) Change the scheme
C.) Change nothing, because the results are acceptable

If A isn't an option because the backup is much worse, then what else can be done? I don't think option C is viable when we rank at the bottom of all college football - much lower than most G5 programs.

It seems that something will end up giving - either something suddenly clicks with the players or something suddenly changes with the coaches. Whether that's change of personnel or scheme, something's gotta give.

Option (c) might be chosen not because the "results are acceptable", but because options (a) and (b) could well make things even worse.
I'm just playing devil's advocate here, because like I said, I don't know whether the problem is with the players or the coaches. And fixing the wrong problem won't help.
Often players improve as the year wears on. Hopefully we'll see that play out in the future.

 

[AugustaSwarm]

Option D.) Keep working within the scheme until the players begin to execute it. This is what I think is going on.

FWIW, Louisville is a good team and Ole Miss might be the best team in the SEC West this year. We have new guys in key positions and we've played two very good teams. While there are nits to be picked about our SC State performance, the D did what they were supposed to do in that game.

Before we wear out our knees on jerky overreactions to early season failures in games every expert predicted we would lose, let's give the coaches a chance to do their job and develop players as the season progresses.

That's fair - and we were in position to win both the UL and Ole Miss games. But geez...the D has been awful. And it's been the same issues for 4+ years now.

 

[CEB]

I have a slightly different take on what I see from many about why our D is so bad.

In general the D looks good to my eye from a schematic point of view; people are where they need to be in general. Sure there are blown assignments but 80% are a failure to execute / tackle. If that's right, then it's not about Thacker having a trick up his sleeve, but the players not executing.

Having said that it's on the players to execute, it's also on the D coaches to get the players ready and coached up. Since the players aren't, I've got no problem in changing coaches.

It can't get worse can it? Or if it does, does it matter overall? We are screwed at this level of D (and ST) play.

I’m with you… we’ve had our breakdowns but we haven’t looked as completely lost as some of our other recent units.

I haven’t watched Wake this year but based on what they’ve done recently, I don’t think sacks is a metric we need to worry with this week. We might get credited for a “sack” if we get a TFL on the QB… maybe that will ease the minds of some statisticians.

We need to contain (which I think we have mostly done) and tackle in space (which is a really scary proposition for us right now). We don’t need edge rushers as much this week as much as we need contain and good tackling…

I am not certain what our D problem is, but I am also not seeing any reason to think it can’t / won’t improve. For all I know, we have played two pretty good O (Lville and Miss) and played super vanilla against an overmatched opponent.

 

[bobongo]

That's fair - and we were in position to win both the UL and Ole Miss games. But geez...the D has been awful. And it's been the same issues for 4+ years now.

Not exactly. The defense performed markedly better after you know who left last year. Our woes this year are at least in part the result the defense being depleted by transfers out.

 

[Southern psu fan]

I am convinced some folks on this board don't watch the games. The OL and the QB play has been the bright spot all season

Everybody has OL problems because the defensive players today are monsters. Even in the NFL it’s hard to block these stud defensive linemen. Ga Techs offense is pretty dang good we’ve just gotta get better on defense.

 

[Root4GT]

But the coaches can only coach the players up so far. So, the question remains: is it the coaches or the players? I dunno.

Likely both. Most of us are not qualified to assess the techniques the DL are using in their 1 on 1 matchups. Hand placements, body posture and a host of other things. Regardless, the DL has not been impactful.

 

[slugboy]

We’ve had a lot of numbers used to justify different takes. We have a thread that says we’re a top 10 offense. We’ve used some numbers here that say we’re one of the worst defenses in FBS.

I don’t think we’re a top 10 offense. A top 10 offense would be 2-1 or 3-0 right now. LSU is #10 in points per game at 45.7 points per game. We’re #47 at 35 points per game, including SCST. Since other teams have played the weaker teams on their schedule too, that’s probably a fair-ish ranking. We’re also #47 in points per drive on offense.

If you take out SCST, we’re at 28.5 points per game, which is probably what we can expect in ACC play on average.

In scoring defense, we’re at about 33 points given up per game. That’s #115 in FBS.

F+ has us around the #72 offense and the #83 defense. That should give us a pretty good idea of the range—we’re probably somewhere between 40th and 80th in offense, and probably somewhere between 80th and 120th in defense (if you think you can put a number on something like that). We’re probably somewhere in the middle of the pack in offense in the ACC. On defense, we’re probably in the bottom third in FBS—including G5 teams.

We have multiple problems on defense. We’re getting blocked—our DL and our DBs. We’re losing a lot of 1:1 matchups. On top of that, we’re not tackling well. Against Ole Miss, I saw their line pick up about 3-4 yards against us on several plays before their RB did anything.

While scheme can’t do much if you consistently have players getting blocked, maybe you swap to a 4-3 and get someone heavier in the middle to help rush and tackle. DCs like a 4-2-5 to handle faster receivers, but if you’re getting ripped up front you have to pick your poison—maybe a 52 is better, and we get some pass rush in. Maybe it’s worse. Maybe we roll out bigger but slower CBs who can shed blocks but can’t run as fast.

 

[bobongo]

While scheme can’t do much if you consistently have players getting blocked, maybe you swap to a 4-3 and get someone heavier in the middle to help rush and tackle. DCs like a 4-2-5 to handle faster receivers, but if you’re getting ripped up front you have to pick your poison—maybe a 52 is better, and we get some pass rush in. Maybe it’s worse. Maybe we roll out bigger but slower CBs who can shed blocks but can’t run as fast.

I'll admit I don't know much about schemes, but I've always like the disruptive quality, at least in theory, of having four linebackers and sending one on just about every play.
They never know which one's coming.

 

[slugboy]

I'll admit I don't know much about schemes, but I've always like the disruptive quality, at least in theory, of having four linebackers and sending one on just about every play.
They never know which one's coming.

I don’t see how any team can make a significant scheme change in 4 practices—and that’s all you really have from one week to another.
The scheme we have is gonna be our scheme for the rest of the year—maybe with a modification here and there.

 

[GetYourBuzzOn]

I would like to see some schematic wrinkles that generate more pressure. To date, we have 27 hurries, 7 QB hits, and 2 sacks. We know that we're not going to win the 1 on 1 battles on the line, so we need to do something to create pressure. Otherwise our secondary is going to get shredded.

 

[stech81]

I'll admit I don't know much about schemes, but I've always like the disruptive quality, at least in theory, of having four linebackers and sending one on just about every play.
They never know which one's coming.

I all so don’t know much about schemes but we have someone here who played LB and does I’m hoping he can tell us something unless he has a reason not to say anything.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I don’t see how any team can make a significant scheme change in 4 practices—and that’s all you really have from one week to another.
The scheme we have is gonna be our scheme for the rest of the year—maybe with a modification here and there.

Agree. I don’t thinking changing scheme in the middle of a season is ever effective but simplifying the scheme is one way to try to improve a defense.

But I don’t think that’s what’s going on. Put me in the camp of our only option is to hope the players keep learning and improving technique. Other than mixing in a few blitz packages that’s about it. IMHO

 

[CEB]

I all so don’t know much about schemes but we have someone here who played LB and does I’m hoping he can tell us something unless he has a reason not to say anything.

I find the best way to draw someone out on a message board is to say something stupid. Problem is that everyone here is just so damned smart!

 

[bobongo]

I don’t see how any team can make a significant scheme change in 4 practices—and that’s all you really have from one week to another.
The scheme we have is gonna be our scheme for the rest of the year—maybe with a modification here and there.

Makes sense. But it just seems to this unwashed observer that if you're getting pushed around on defense you have to find a way to create more disruption, and that means having some part of our defensive backfield paying unexpected visits to their offensive backfield.

 

[yeti92]

I don’t think we’re a top 10 offense. A top 10 offense would be 2-1 or 3-0 right now. LSU is #10 in points per game at 45.7 points per game. We’re #47 at 35 points per game, including SCST. Since other teams have played the weaker teams on their schedule too, that’s probably a fair-ish ranking. We’re also #47 in points per drive on offense.

About half of the ACC has played 2 P5 games so far, 5 SEC teams have played 2 P5s but some have played none. I imagine numbers are similar for other P5 conferences, so I would expect our ranking to go up there a little bit, particularly once we have played BG.

 

[danny daniel]

Is the starter already doing the best he can? Is his backup going to be any better? The question is still not answered. You can hold the man pulling the strings responsible, but if he's already getting the most he can out of the starter, who's doing his best, and if the backup can't do any better, then replacing the coach is just spinning your wheels to no avail. And as has already been pointed out, firing a coach for something beyond his control could well have unintended adverse consequences.

The starters may be doing the best they can "in doing what they have been told to do". For example we are weak against the outsde run. Why? One big reason is that our DEs are always crashing inside or looking and charging inside or getting EASILY blocked inside. (Maybe Thack thinks the inside guys have to have help? ). DEs do not have the "do not let your man block you inside instructions or discipline or?" We are having to stop the outside runs with our LBs taking a give ground pursuit angle and our DBs are coming off coverage from wherever and having to make open field one on one tackles...all this without the benefit of help from the DE. The LBs seem pre-occupied with reading keys (pulling linemen or birds going south) and they seem to not follow the ball early on so that leads to not getting there, or giving ground in pursuit, or poorly positioned to make a bring down hit or?. To a large degree our D problems are coaching and the talent level cannot compensate well enough on the fly.

We were running the ball against Louisville in the second Q very successfully and at halftime the L coaches made adjustment instructions to their D and completely shut down those runs in the next several series...coaching. We saw the coaching adjustments in the recent Wake vs OD game where the Wake D performance on the field was completely changed in the second half. These adjustments were not made with wholesale substitutions of backup players. These were x and o coaches doing their job well.
'

 

[stech81]

I find the best way to draw someone out on a message board is to say something stupid. Problem is that everyone here is just so damned smart!

he is a friend I wouldn't say anything bad about him great guy and smart.

 

[Lotta Booze]

I don’t see how any team can make a significant scheme change in 4 practices—and that’s all you really have from one week to another.
The scheme we have is gonna be our scheme for the rest of the year—maybe with a modification here and there.

I mostly agree but will cite the 3-3-5 scheme change up Thacker threw out there against UNC 2 years ago (?) that was very effective. At least for that one game