Ga Tech Placekicking Problems

[RonJohn]

Does anyone know if there's a rule of thumb for how far back the holder is behind the line? With so many blocked kicks, it seems like we are putting the holder like 2 yards closer to the line than we should. I don't really know much about kicking, but I do know that any high school kicker should be able to kick extra points. Are we doing something drastically different scheme-wise?

I don't think we are doing anything different scheme wise. The kickers aren't getting enough loft. The line isn't blocking well at all on the kicks. Combine those things and you get a lot of blocked kicks.

 

[okiemon]

From the AJC today:

Whatever the issue, the Tech coaching staff has to figure it out before it costs the Jackets a game.

It’s already cost us games! Hell, we would have beat Clemson with 23 field goals.

 

[Technut1990]

This argument is never gonna get worked out. Everything both sides says is possible. There are some facts to look at but it’s pointless.

I personally think Wells was treated like the proverbial “other woman”. We went to him often when we needed him, at a point we snuggled up to him for a whole year and he was perfect for us at the time and we loved what he did to make us feel good. The next year we told him we were seeing other kickers and he perhaps couldn’t stand it. Our response was to go back and forth between him and the other kicker. Then in the end we told both kickers we were gonna see 3 more kickers, so both left.

I think we CGC’s ATL thing screwed him up but nope I don’t know and wasn’t there ( ironically though there are a few on here now that have been questioning the ATL stuff, we don’t even play and are wondering if it has a point )

I also don’t think the current kickers are the entire problem either, They should be kicking in all kick senarios if they are going to learn ( 2 pt plays are statistically pointless strategically anyway ) I agree that the line isn’t blocking correctly but that and a dollar won’t get Tech nor me a Big Mac Meal with an apple pie.

so what’s the point arguing. I look at this year as a Mulligan Year nothing really counts, we should be teaching basics and letting everyone see game speed and conditions.

I learned to negotiate Atlanta traffic at 18 years old in a stick shift, by driving in it and at times getting totally lost, not by watching others drive. You learned or got push aside, literally.

 

[4shotB]

Do we have a kicking problem, I really need to stop drinking so much before and during the games.

As far as I can tell, we have kicked the ball every single time we have attempted that task. So, we don't have a kicking problem pers se. We have a making problem.

 

[wrmathis]

As far as I can tell, we have kicked the ball every single time we have attempted that task. So, we don't have a kicking problem pers se. We have a making problem.

More like a getting it past the LOS problem. I’m to the point that if it doesn’t get blocked, I don’t care what happens. Baby steps at this point.

 

[jacketjp]

Google Rick Ankiel and then come back to the conversation. I think he was a little more talented then Wells (no offense). What happened to him?

I'm not suggesting the "yips" don't exist. I was suggesting that even IF someone develops a mental block (the "yips") they don't lose the physical ability to kick (or throw) the ball. People here keep speculating that Wells developed these yips without any evidence, while suggesting I am the one speculating.

Here's a couple big difference between how Wells was treated versus Ankiel.

1. Ankiel was given a legitimate opportunity on the field as a starting pitcher - based on his previous performance - to demonstrate whether or not he could work thru it. He started 6 games the year following his post season meltdown before being sent down the the minors. He wasn't sent down because he was having control issues in practice. Wells was given a single FGA (after going 2 for 2 in XPs) before being benched.
2. Ankiel was a member of a professional franchise that had dozens of potential replacements ready for an opportunity. It was reasonable to send him down given his on-the-field performance versus the skill of those that were ready to backfill him. We'll never know how he would have kicked that year since he was never given the opportunity, but it would have been tough to do worse than King.

 

[jacketjp]

Now you are comparing kickers and DTs? Wells was kicking poorly in practice, lost his job. Was given a second chance and missed a FG (badly) and a XP. Again, you weren't at practice, you have no idea about practice management, individual performance, coaching kickers, etc. If Wells was kicking at his 2018 levels, he would be on the field. Your "analysis" is all conjuctuer.

You totally missed both points. My initial point, stated quite clearly, was that I don't care what happened at practice. Kicking is such a mental game and Wells had such a strong track record on the field that it's my opinion he should have been given ample opportunity on the field. He was 50 for 50 career, including 2 for 2 thus far in 2019, and he was benched without missing a single kick on the field. That's insane. That's asinine. That last part is obviously my opinion, but given the results and where we are to date with our kicking game, I think it's incredibly naïve and the fantastically homer-ish to try to argue that we've managers our kickers well.

My second point was that you should NOT treat kickers and DTs the same way. That's what CGC did, by his own admission. He didn't care the position or the ability or the track record, everyone had to earn their starting position each week in practice. That's all well and good for DTs, but I think that's a piss poor way to handle kickers. You may disagree, but, again, look at the results.

Finally, I did not provide any "analysis" or "conjuctuer" (sic). I provided statistics, facts, and my opinion.

 

[jacketjp]

So a Kicker can stink it up in practice and be trusted in a game? Really? Is that how it works at all positions? You earn the coaches and player's trust by how you perform in practice!!!!

Yes. When a kicker is 50 for 50 over his career, but has a few bad weeks in practice, yet you don't have a replacement that is clearly better, you dance with the one that brought you. No, I don't think that's how it works at all positions. For those that have an established track record, I think you give more leeway to those positions that are more mental, e.g. kicker and QB. If you were to have a quarterback that had a phenomenal year - one of the best ever - but starts out struggling in practice a little bit, you don't bench him for someone whose considerably less accomplished and less talented. You seem to think all football players must be managed the same way. I think that's wrong and I think we're seeing the results of that mismanagement.

 

[RonJohn]

I'm not suggesting the "yips" don't exist. I was suggesting that even IF someone develops a mental block (the "yips") they don't lose the physical ability to kick (or throw) the ball. People here keep speculating that Wells developed these yips without any evidence, while suggesting I am the one speculating.

Here's a couple big difference between how Wells was treated versus Ankiel.

1. Ankiel was given a legitimate opportunity on the field as a starting pitcher - based on his previous performance - to demonstrate whether or not he could work thru it. He started 6 games the year following his post season meltdown before being sent down the the minors. He wasn't sent down because he was having control issues in practice. Wells was given a single FGA (after going 2 for 2 in XPs) before being benched.
2. Ankiel was a member of a professional franchise that had dozens of potential replacements ready for an opportunity. It was reasonable to send him down given his on-the-field performance versus the skill of those that were ready to backfill him. We'll never know how he would have kicked that year since he was never given the opportunity, but it would have been tough to do worse than King.

If Ankiel was not able to get the ball across the plate in the strike zone during practice, he would not have been given the opportunity to pitch in a game, no matter what his previous performance was.

Wells had issues last year during warmups. Serious issues. Not little issues that looked like they could be easily fixed. Serious issues that would have made me question whether he should be given a chance to make a kick during the game. I am not trying to speak poorly of him, simply pointing out that he made kicks in warm ups that were low, short, off line, and wobbly. I don't know what happened. I don't know if he had an injury, if he had a mental block, if there were issues between him and the coaches, or if something else was bothering him. I only know that when I was able to see him kicking, he wasn't able to kick the ball well. As I said above with your example of Ankiel, if he had not been able to even throw a strike in practice, he would not have been allowed to pitch in a game simply because he was previously a good pitcher.

 

[Lee]

I'm not suggesting the "yips" don't exist. I was suggesting that even IF someone develops a mental block (the "yips") they don't lose the physical ability to kick (or throw) the ball. People here keep speculating that Wells developed these yips without any evidence, while suggesting I am the one speculating.

Here's a couple big difference between how Wells was treated versus Ankiel.

1. Ankiel was given a legitimate opportunity on the field as a starting pitcher - based on his previous performance - to demonstrate whether or not he could work thru it. He started 6 games the year following his post season meltdown before being sent down the the minors. He wasn't sent down because he was having control issues in practice. Wells was given a single FGA (after going 2 for 2 in XPs) before being benched.
2. Ankiel was a member of a professional franchise that had dozens of potential replacements ready for an opportunity. It was reasonable to send him down given his on-the-field performance versus the skill of those that were ready to backfill him. We'll never know how he would have kicked that year since he was never given the opportunity, but it would have been tough to do worse than King.

Couple points to refute yours.

1st, Ankiel was given a $2.5MM signing bonus by the Cardinals. He was also their top prospect and started game 1 of their first series (meaning he was their best pitcher). They had a little more incentive to continue running him out there than GT with Wells.

2nd, Ankiel lost it in the playoffs. LaRussa didn’t want to start him in the next series. See this article: https://www.sportscasting.com/where-is-the-yips-pitcher-rick-ankiel-today/

“A few days later, after throwing several effective bullpen sessions, La Russa informed the pitcher he wasn’t going to start him against the Mets in the second game of NLCS. Ankiel protested. La Russa relented and gave him the ball. Unfortunately, Ankiel’s wildness returned. He managed to get a pair of outs but only lasted two-thirds of an inning.”

3rd, as the above article proves, Ankiel had no issues performing in practice. That’s how he earned the opportunity to continue getting a shot. Wells couldn’t do that, therefore did not earn a chance to prove it on the field.

In closing, you don’t give someone who can’t prove they’re ready to compete in practice a chance to do so in the game. Especially if it’s the yips. I’m all for bringing Wells back if he can prove he’s past the yips and make FGs consistently.

 

[Heisman's Ghost]

You totally missed both points. My initial point, stated quite clearly, was that I don't care what happened at practice. Kicking is such a mental game and Wells had such a strong track record on the field that it's my opinion he should have been given ample opportunity on the field. He was 50 for 50 career, including 2 for 2 thus far in 2019, and he was benched without missing a single kick on the field. That's insane. That's asinine. That last part is obviously my opinion, but given the results and where we are to date with our kicking game, I think it's incredibly naïve and the fantastically homer-ish to try to argue that we've managers our kickers well.

My second point was that you should NOT treat kickers and DTs the same way. That's what CGC did, by his own admission. He didn't care the position or the ability or the track record, everyone had to earn their starting position each week in practice. That's all well and good for DTs, but I think that's a piss poor way to handle kickers. You may disagree, but, again, look at the results.

Finally, I did not provide any "analysis" or "conjuctuer" (sic). I provided statistics, facts, and my opinion.

When Pepper Rogers played quarterback and kicker for one of Dodd's great teams in the 1950s the Jackets went to the Orange Bowl and Pepper, being Pepper, was screwing up badly in practice. Coach Dodd was a player's coach by 1950s standards but he was a stickler for special teams play especially kicking. He watched Pepper shanking kicks right and left and got absolutely furious. Pepper calmly told him in so many words: "Look, Coach how many people are in the stands now?" "None" Dodd admitted. Well, tomorrow when the stands are full I will make them. Naturally, Pepper comes on to make the game winning kick at a difficult angle, throwing his hands up, before the ball went through the uprights. Kickers have to have that game day mentality. Some got it, some don't.

 

[Go4Tech]

While enjoying this read, would make two comments.

1) Agree with Heisman's Ghost. That story, in a slightly different version, is in "Dodd's Luck". Great read for those that have not.

2) Does anyone have the overall stats of blocked FGs and PATs for this year?

Maybe just me, however is seems that the overall number of blocked kicks has increased this year. Maybe due to rule change about someone over the nose of the center? If so, the resulting defense scheme changes maybe a contributing factor. If this is truly the case, then it is clearly on the coaching staff to sort.

That is all.

THWG.

 

[smokey_wasp]

Over or under 0.5 Field Goals vs. Pitt would actually be an interesting wager.

 

[GTNavyNuke]

I don't think we are doing anything different scheme wise. The kickers aren't getting enough loft. The line isn't blocking well at all on the kicks. Combine those things and you get a lot of blocked kicks.

The snaps and holds are elite.

 

[CuseJacket]

Temple 2018: 56 for 56 PAT, 12 of 18 FG (2 misses from 40+ yds)
Temple 2017: 33 for 36 PAT, 19 of 28 FG (5 misses from 40+ yds)

We would take that at this point, as would our current coaches who coached those kickers.

There is a lot of projection as to what happened with Wells once again in this thread. Same goes for FG kicking and our coaches' ability to coach special teams.

Last year I posted multiple times what Wells looked like early in the year in pregame warm-ups. Some probably missed it, and I feel pretty certain that others intentionally ignored it because it didn't confirm their assumptions. Here's the analogy... Wells looked in warm-ups like our 2020 kickers look live. That is, shank city.

My hyper-speculation projection goes the other direction on Wells based on a small amount of inside knowledge and prior evidence. Starting with, Wells was deemed the 2nd or 3rd best kicker by our prior coaching staff for a reason. It wasn't until Brenton King and Shawn Davis failed, both of which already had a prior shaky body of evidence and continued to get the primary opportunities, that Wells got the nod.

Why was Wells behind them? Logically one would assume that Wells did not inspire confidence in practice. What would measurably suggest he did not inspire confidence? Missing FGs. His path to playing time optically appeared as a "I have no other options" and a hope that he'd flip a switch on gameday. And he was lights out.

Now, what are the odds that is sustainable? A kicker who we can logically infer wasn't good in practice but made kicks in games? Maybe he became good in practice after making kicks in games. But if he became good in practice, why did he then become terrible to borderline incapable?

Some of the same folks who claim the coaches broke Wells are the same folks who claim the coaches only blow sunshine up the butts of our players. Everyone is elite, right? What specifically do folks think the coaches did to Wells that broke him? Had him compete against other kickers like the prior regime?

Our new coaching staff didn't break Wells, imo. You don't get to the point of barely getting the ball of the ground, like our current crop, due to coaching (mental nor physical). That type of performance issue starts with the athlete, imo. It reminds me of Chuck Knoblauch, a former All-Star 2nd baseman who late in his career couldn't throw the ball accurately to first base. Sometimes guys get the yips and no amount of mental coaching can get them out of it.


*** This post is a repost from last month's 'Kicking Game' thread ***

 

[SoMsJacket]

Yes. When a kicker is 50 for 50 over his career, but has a few bad weeks in practice, yet you don't have a replacement that is clearly better, you dance with the one that brought you. No, I don't think that's how it works at all positions. For those that have an established track record, I think you give more leeway to those positions that are more mental, e.g. kicker and QB. If you were to have a quarterback that had a phenomenal year - one of the best ever - but starts out struggling in practice a little bit, you don't bench him for someone whose considerably less accomplished and less talented. You seem to think all football players must be managed the same way. I think that's wrong and I think we're seeing the results of that mismanagement.

Wells didn't struggle "a little bit". He was kicking horribly in practice. If a player is outperform in practice, you want the player to be given playing time? Reminder, you weren't at practice, you don't know how Wells performed. It would be great if Wells found his mojo and returned to kick successfully. You Are using a strawman argument. Let it go, Wells is not on the team

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

Wells didn't struggle "a little bit". He was kicking horribly in practice. If a player is outperform in practice, you want the player to be given playing time? Reminder, you weren't at practice, you don't know how Wells performed.

Based on your reasoning we can assume you were at the practices?

 

[Heisman's Ghost]

While enjoying this read, would make two comments.

1) Agree with Heisman's Ghost. That story, in a slightly different version, is in "Dodd's Luck". Great read for those that have not.

2) Does anyone have the overall stats of blocked FGs and PATs for this year?

Maybe just me, however is seems that the overall number of blocked kicks has increased this year. Maybe due to rule change about someone over the nose of the center? If so, the resulting defense scheme changes maybe a contributing factor. If this is truly the case, then it is clearly on the coaching staff to sort.

That is all.

THWG.

Let me tell you. I was watching Florida's kicker against UGA Saturday and there will not be any blocking that boy's kicks. It is almost as though the thing goes straight up and then out towards the goal posts. He kicked one from over 50 yards that would have been good from 60 and it was really high. That is what we need.

 

[Heisman's Ghost]

While enjoying this read, would make two comments.

1) Agree with Heisman's Ghost. That story, in a slightly different version, is in "Dodd's Luck". Great read for those that have not.

2) Does anyone have the overall stats of blocked FGs and PATs for this year?

Maybe just me, however is seems that the overall number of blocked kicks has increased this year. Maybe due to rule change about someone over the nose of the center? If so, the resulting defense scheme changes maybe a contributing factor. If this is truly the case, then it is clearly on the coaching staff to sort.

That is all.

THWG.

Mine is the "Pepper version" He was not adverse to spicing things up as the tale goes. But he was cocksure. He was an assistant coach at Florida with Ray Graves when the Gators upset Tech at Florida Field in 1960 or so. Bobby Dodd Jr. was the Gator quarterback. Many Florida fans consider that game to be one of the most important in rebuilding Florida from a perennial doormat into a good football team.

 

[Technut1990]

Temple 2018: 56 for 56 PAT, 12 of 18 FG (2 misses from 40+ yds)
Temple 2017: 33 for 36 PAT, 19 of 28 FG (5 misses from 40+ yds)

We would take that at this point, as would our current coaches who coached those kickers.

There is a lot of projection as to what happened with Wells once again in this thread. Same goes for FG kicking and our coaches' ability to coach special teams.

Last year I posted multiple times what Wells looked like early in the year in pregame warm-ups. Some probably missed it, and I feel pretty certain that others intentionally ignored it because it didn't confirm their assumptions. Here's the analogy... Wells looked in warm-ups like our 2020 kickers look live. That is, shank city.

My hyper-speculation projection goes the other direction on Wells based on a small amount of inside knowledge and prior evidence. Starting with, Wells was deemed the 2nd or 3rd best kicker by our prior coaching staff for a reason. It wasn't until Brenton King and Shawn Davis failed, both of which already had a prior shaky body of evidence and continued to get the primary opportunities, that Wells got the nod.

Why was Wells behind them? Logically one would assume that Wells did not inspire confidence in practice. What would measurably suggest he did not inspire confidence? Missing FGs. His path to playing time optically appeared as a "I have no other options" and a hope that he'd flip a switch on gameday. And he was lights out.

Now, what are the odds that is sustainable? A kicker who we can logically infer wasn't good in practice but made kicks in games? Maybe he became good in practice after making kicks in games. But if he became good in practice, why did he then become terrible to borderline incapable?

Some of the same folks who claim the coaches broke Wells are the same folks who claim the coaches only blow sunshine up the butts of our players. Everyone is elite, right? What specifically do folks think the coaches did to Wells that broke him? Had him compete against other kickers like the prior regime?

Our new coaching staff didn't break Wells, imo. You don't get to the point of barely getting the ball of the ground, like our current crop, due to coaching (mental nor physical). That type of performance issue starts with the athlete, imo. It reminds me of Chuck Knoblauch, a former All-Star 2nd baseman who late in his career couldn't throw the ball accurately to first base. Sometimes guys get the yips and no amount of mental coaching can get them out of it.


*** This post is a repost from last month's 'Kicking Game' thread ***

one of the most enforced things on this blog is not to attack players. We are told they are children taking on a heavy load and it’s a struggle ( which I’m sure it is ) yet we act like a player whose 50 for 50 or whatever he was will just slide into being told he is now a part of a ATL system. Wells was essentially money on his game kicks and he was told he had to compete EACH WEEK for the job. Maybe he lost confidence or had personal issues to deal with but I would consider it a slap in the face. especially so if I were given a message that said we are bringing in 3 more kickers so uh just letting you know, which was undoubtedly the message since both kickers left.

I don’t think we will ever know unless Wells or King talk but it looks like it looks. Graham came in 2 games ago and he wasn’t even listed ATL, it’s just got to bust your bubble when there’s a change and it’s someone whose not ATL that goes in.

im not arguing that he didn’t lose it, I’m just saying why I think he would. Gotta be big pressure being a # 2 or 3 in one system and surprising everyone, including yourself, and then being told by the next coach you have to do it week to week In practice.