Ga Tech Placekicking Problems

orientalnc

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Our placekicking woes are real and there's little debate about that. I think we should be careful when speculating about the inner thoughts or motivation of the young men, or their coaches, when discussing this subject. No one on this board knows why Wells is no longer kicking. There are lots of possible reasons that have nothing to do with coaches' personal decisions.

One thing about this which I feel confident - Coach Collins would have Wells out there kicking if he was willing/able and the coaches had confidence in his ability. Our coaches are not mean or vindictive. They want to win.
 

CuseJacket

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one of the most enforced things on this blog is not to attack players. We are told they are children taking on a heavy load and it’s a struggle ( which I’m sure it is ) yet we act like a player whose 50 for 50 or whatever he was will just slide into being told he is now a part of a ATL system. Wells was essentially money on his game kicks and he was told he had to compete EACH WEEK for the job. Maybe he lost confidence or had personal issues to deal with but I would consider it a slap in the face. especially so if I were given a message that said we are bringing in 3 more kickers so uh just letting you know, which was undoubtedly the message since both kickers left.

I don’t think we will ever know unless Wells or King talk but it looks like it looks. Graham came in 2 games ago and he wasn’t even listed ATL, it’s just got to bust your bubble when there’s a change and it’s someone whose not ATL that goes in.

im not arguing that he didn’t lose it, I’m just saying why I think he would. Gotta be big pressure being a # 2 or 3 in one system and surprising everyone, including yourself, and then being told by the next coach you have to do it week to week In practice.
It's possible that CPJ didn't force kickers to compete. I doubt it. There was no safety being #1 the year Wells came in as option #3. It's the default nature of D1 athletics.

If Wells could not stand the pressure of competition (practice), I doubt he could stand the pressure of competition (game). Kickers are sometimes fickle. Self-created head games happen as much as anything. I agree with you to an extent, maybe Wells kicked well year 1 based on the ability to kick freely/no expectations. Then, there became expectations.

Now, I'm not saying definitively that Wells was fickle nor that the coaches are entirely absolved. No one knows; probably not even those directly involved. I am projecting a bit like others. My opinion starts with direct observation of Wells struggling in warm-ups to consistently get the ball above the uprights and shanking kicks 10-20 yards wide left. Regardless of how bad a coach mishandles a kicker, I don't blame that entire lack of performance primarily on coaching. And watching that was so discouraging that there is no way, despite the prior year's performance, that one could logically assume he'll turn it around in game action.

It's one thing to become a head case and miss barely (relatively) wide left or wide right a la FSU kickers of old. It's entirely another to struggle to make solid contact. Of course, that's what our current crop is doing which lends credence the other direction, but our coaches have been around long enough and have a track record at Temple wherein they had a decent kicker and the back-ups could at least convert XPs. And if the coaches are at fault and they somehow forgot how to coach kickers, it will be their undoing because it's that critically important to W/L, O and D aside.
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Transitioning to this year, I don't think CGC, Saban, nor Lombardi, etc. can coach their way out of our current kicking situation. The kickers are what they are, and barring an unexpected light switch moment, we and the coaches are in a finger-crossing situation this offseason that something works out. Hopefully they have an Ace up the sleeve. Maybe a grad transfer. Maybe Verdisco is the answer. We've had a couple walk-on kickers injured over the last several years that might be the root of the issue, and potentially it's just bad luck. We cannot afford to assume the current crop will contribute.
 

GTNavyNuke

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I'll stay out of the fault discussion as we only know the results. Success has many fathers but failure is an orphan.

Here's my overall thoughts on ST from another post:

"In fairness I was lumping all ST stuff together to make a point.

Here's how I would look at ST at a more granular level.

Punting - Excellent
Punt coverage - Good
KO - Good to excellent
KO coverage - Good to excellent
KO returns - Bad for not fair catching more. Average start well inside 25.
Punt returns - indeterminate given small sample size but we haven't fumbled any fair catches so good
Place kicking snapping - good
Place kicking holding - good
Place kicking blocking - dismal
Place kicking by kicker - dismal

It's the last two which remind me of the saying "put a thimbleful of **** in a barrel of wine and you have a barrel full of ****."
 

Pointer

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It's possible that CPJ didn't force kickers to compete. I doubt it. There was no safety being #1 the year Wells came in as option #3. It's the default nature of D1 athletics.

If Wells could not stand the pressure of competition (practice), I doubt he could stand the pressure of competition (game). Kickers are sometimes fickle. Self-created head games happen as much as anything. I agree with you to an extent, maybe Wells kicked well year 1 based on the ability to kick freely/no expectations. Then, there became expectations.

Now, I'm not saying definitively that Wells was fickle nor that the coaches are entirely absolved. No one knows; probably not even those directly involved. I am projecting a bit like others. My opinion starts with direct observation of Wells struggling in warm-ups to consistently get the ball above the uprights and shanking kicks 10-20 yards wide left. Regardless of how bad a coach mishandles a kicker, I don't blame that entire lack of performance primarily on coaching. And watching that was so discouraging that there is no way, despite the prior year's performance, that one could logically assume he'll turn it around in game action.

It's one thing to become a head case and miss barely (relatively) wide left or wide right a la FSU kickers of old. It's entirely another to struggle to make solid contact. Of course, that's what our current crop is doing which lends credence the other direction, but our coaches have been around long enough and have a track record at Temple wherein they had a decent kicker and the back-ups could at least convert XPs. And if the coaches are at fault and they somehow forgot how to coach kickers, it will be their undoing because it's that critically important to W/L, O and D aside.
________________________________
Transitioning to this year, I don't think CGC, Saban, nor Lombardi, etc. can coach their way out of our current kicking situation. The kickers are what they are, and barring an unexpected light switch moment, we and the coaches are in a finger-crossing situation this offseason that something works out. Hopefully they have an Ace up the sleeve. Maybe a grad transfer. Maybe Verdisco is the answer. We've had a couple walk-on kickers injured over the last several years that might be the root of the issue, and potentially it's just bad luck. We cannot afford to assume the current crop will contribute.
Whatever the coaching has been with other positions, kickers are a different animal. You can either kick or you can't. Not a whole lot coaching can do for you, especially when you are focused on every other aspect of special teams. It's not like taking golf lessons where your instructor watches your form for a couple hours and makes tweaks, there simply hasn't enough time for that. Kicking truly is bringing in a guy, putting pressure on him in practice and seeing how they perform. For whatever reason, wells may have lost his ability and the only person who can fix that is wells.

Coaches do need to make more of an effort in finding a kicker for next year though.
 

CuseJacket

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Whatever the coaching has been with other positions, kickers are a different animal. You can either kick or you can't. Not a whole lot coaching can do for you, especially when you are focused on every other aspect of special teams. It's not like taking golf lessons where your instructor watches your form for a couple hours and makes tweaks, there simply hasn't enough time for that. Kicking truly is bringing in a guy, putting pressure on him in practice and seeing how they perform. For whatever reason, wells may have lost his ability and the only person who can fix that is wells.

Coaches do need to make more of an effort in finding a kicker for next year though.
I would be shocked if the coaches aren't already putting their full efforts behind finding a kicker for next year, so I'll only disagree on "more of". A decent to good kicker is worth 1-2 wins a year, imo.

Still, even with max effort, finding a sure thing is unlikely. Only place where I think there's some predictability would be via the transfer route, but admittedly I don't know how common that is. Typically bigger schools can "big boy" a lower level school for linebackers, DL, etc. But what incentive does a kicker really have to transfer, barring loss of playing time?

Speaking of which, I've heard rumblings of a possible transfer at another position of need that would immediately elevate said position group. They'd be starting on our squad right now. Far from a certainty but it's a name folks will remember from recruiting in years past.
 

smokey_wasp

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I would be shocked if the coaches aren't already putting their full efforts behind finding a kicker for next year, so I'll only disagree on "more of". A decent to good kicker is worth 1-2 wins a year, imo.

Still, even with max effort, finding a sure thing is unlikely. Only place where I think there's some predictability would be via the transfer route, but admittedly I don't know how common that is. Typically bigger schools can "big boy" a lower level school for linebackers, DL, etc. But what incentive does a kicker really have to transfer, barring loss of playing time?

Speaking of which, I've heard rumblings of a possible transfer at another position of need that would immediately elevate said position group. They'd be starting on our squad right now. Far from a certainty but it's a name folks will remember from recruiting in years past.

I think Butker was viewed as about as sure a thing you can find in a high school kicker. But he was the number 3 kicker in the country, so you really have to go after one of those guys with an actual scholarship offer and there are a very limited number of them. If you offer a scholly to a guy that isn't on that level (like we did with Brenton King) you are on the hook for a scholarship for a guy who may not work out. I expect us to continue bringing in walk-ons until we find someone.
 

IM79

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I think Butker was viewed as about as sure a thing you can find in a high school kicker. But he was the number 3 kicker in the country, so you really have to go after one of those guys with an actual scholarship offer and there are a very limited number of them. If you offer a scholly to a guy that isn't on that level (like we did with Brenton King) you are on the hook for a scholarship for a guy who may not work out. I expect us to continue bringing in walk-ons until we find someone.
Always a crap shoot going from HS to college due to lack of having the kicking tee, better quality of players trying for the block, bigger stage pressure, etc.
 

CuseJacket

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I think Butker was viewed as about as sure a thing you can find in a high school kicker. But he was the number 3 kicker in the country, so you really have to go after one of those guys with an actual scholarship offer and there are a very limited number of them. If you offer a scholly to a guy that isn't on that level (like we did with Brenton King) you are on the hook for a scholarship for a guy who may not work out. I expect us to continue bringing in walk-ons until we find someone.
And the beauty of Butker was that his floor out of HS = kickoffs thru the end zone. So we knew we would get something even if the FG game didn't translate.

And while I'm a huge Butker fan, his overall FG% in college was 71%. We'd obviously take that right now, but he was far from a sure thing. His stats over his first 3 years were essentially the same as how Temple's kicker performed under Collins. Temple's kicker joined the program as a walk-on.

1605031233869.png
 

MWBATL

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Warmups are not games. Practices are not games. Dude was 50 for 50 in games. By this logic, if Steph Curry goes 0 for 20 in warmups, you're going to bench him, right?
Unlikley. But if he went 0 for 2 weeks of practice, I'll wager something would change.
 

jacketjp

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Wells didn't struggle "a little bit". He was kicking horribly in practice. If a player is outperform in practice, you want the player to be given playing time? Reminder, you weren't at practice, you don't know how Wells performed. It would be great if Wells found his mojo and returned to kick successfully. You Are using a strawman argument. Let it go, Wells is not on the team

1. You weren't at practice either.
2. You don't understand what a strawman is.
3. You're still missing the point. Wide right. Way wide.
 

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jacketjp

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Unlikley. But if he went 0 for 2 weeks of practice, I'll wager something would change.

I would love to be able to really take that wager. No one cares if the guy balls out at game time. Find one example in the history of basketball in which a coach has even intimated that an established shooter was benched because he hit a slump in practice.
 

smokey_wasp

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And the beauty of Butker was that his floor out of HS = kickoffs thru the end zone. So we knew we would get something even if the FG game didn't translate.

And while I'm a huge Butker fan, his overall FG% in college was 71%. We'd obviously take that right now, but he was far from a sure thing. His stats over his first 3 years were essentially the same as how Temple's kicker performed under Collins. Temple's kicker joined the program as a walk-on.

View attachment 9430

Wow, he really didn't become an NFL prospect until his senior year. Funny how we remember stuff.
 

Augusta_Jacket

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And the beauty of Butker was that his floor out of HS = kickoffs thru the end zone. So we knew we would get something even if the FG game didn't translate.

And while I'm a huge Butker fan, his overall FG% in college was 71%. We'd obviously take that right now, but he was far from a sure thing. His stats over his first 3 years were essentially the same as how Temple's kicker performed under Collins. Temple's kicker joined the program as a walk-on.

View attachment 9430

Butker had two off years for sure. In 2014, he suffered from a series of missed FGs from a particular hash between 30-39 yds. (I think it was the right hash but it's been a few days...) In 2015, he only attempted 11 so the 4 misses hurt him more % wise. Of note, though, 2 of those misses in 2015 were from 50+ yards out. His numbers were never as good % wise as some college kickers, but the NFL saw his leg strength and nerves of steel and took a chance. Paid off...

The chart below details them by yardage.

1605033643146.png
 

smokey_wasp

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Butker had two off years for sure. In 2014, he suffered from a series of missed FGs from a particular hash between 30-39 yds. (I think it was the right hash but it's been a few days...) In 2015, he only attempted 11 so the 4 misses hurt him more % wise. Of note, though, 2 of those misses in 2015 were from 50+ yards out. His numbers were never as good % wise as some college kickers, but the NFL saw his leg strength and nerves of steel and took a chance. Paid off...

The chart below details them by yardage.

View attachment 9433

Checking Butker's stats this year, I found something else interesting. He is 15-17 on field goals and 3 for 3 from 50-plus. Yet, he is only 27 of 33 on extra point attempts, the worst in the league.

Extra points are 33 yard field goals, essentially. He is 7 for 7 from 30-39 yards on Field Goals, but yet has missed 6 extra points.

Kicking is weird.
 

RonJohn

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Warmups are not games. Practices are not games. Dude was 50 for 50 in games. By this logic, if Steph Curry goes 0 for 20 in warmups, you're going to bench him, right?
If Steph Curry is sick and can't lift a basketball, by your reasoning, put him in the game because just not being able to lift a basketball doesn't mean that he won't be lights out when the game starts.

I do appreciate what Wells did for GT in 2018. However, Wells was not the Steph Curry of kicking. I can't understand your logic at all. If a kicker cannot kick the ball through the uprights in practice and in warmups, how do you believe he will magically kick it through the uprights in a game? In 2019, he wasn't just having issues getting the ball through the uprights in warmups, he was having issued getting the ball off of the ground. How is he supposed to just magically make the ball go up in the air, end over end, and through the goal when the game starts?

I am in no way trying to speak poorly of him. Something was wrong. I don't know if he was injured. I don't know if he had personal issues. I don't know if he didn't get along with the coaches. I don't know if the coaches put too much pressure on him. However, whatever the issue was, it was obvious in warmups that he was not kicking well. Not only was he not kicking well, he was kicking so poorly that I wouldn't have had any confidence in having him kick during a game.
 

Augusta_Jacket

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Checking Butker's stats this year, I found something else interesting. He is 15-17 on field goals and 3 for 3 from 50-plus. Yet, he is only 27 of 33 on extra point attempts, the worst in the league.

Extra points are 33 yard field goals, essentially. He is 7 for 7 from 30-39 yards on Field Goals, but yet has missed 6 extra points.

Kicking is weird.

Yeah. I've been trying to find that old article, as it would shed some light on this current discussion, but when Butker was struggling in 2014, there was an article written that stated he was working with his own personal kicking coach, and that practice was common in the NCAA. Most ST coaches are not versed in place kicking, and many of the kickers depend on private coaching for improvement. Can't find that article now, so I might be misremembering but it would make sense on why fixes don't seem to be happening more quickly.
 

RonJohn

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But the Rick Ankiel comparison was spot on, right?
I can think of several ways that is was not spot on.

Ankiel was touted as the next Sandy Koufax. How many kickers at GT were touted as the next Adam Vinatieri? Even Butker was not given that level of praise.
Ankiel's issues started during a game, not in practice. He had five wild pitches in one inning against the Braves. His next game, he threw two wild pitches in the first inning and was yanked. That was the end of the season for him. The next year, he started drinking on the mound. He actually won his first game, then he lost his second start and was sent to the minors. Do you think that if he was throwing wild pitches during warmups, in practice, that they would have let him start? Obviously not.
 
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