Fake defensive injuries

Root4GT

Helluva Engineer
Messages
3,081
Integrity. Character. Sportsmanship. Ethics. … ‘89 alum here, and I was embarrassed of our team. Reflects poorly on our university. “Just because others do it” is a lame argument - and reflects poorly on those making this excuse. Ask yourself what it teaches the players about life and how to conduct themselves. What example are we setting for the students (and all other fans) that witness this? We are supposed to be developing leaders, right? We are better than this, or we should be…. All alums should call on the administration to FIX IT!
Simple - you play to win the game within the rules. A life lesson everyone should learn as soon as possible. This is not a beauty contest. It is a very physical game where players are asked to go full out and hit other players as hard as they can. The plays ae legal. There is not cheating involved!

Any Alumni that would rather lose playing "polite" football is not helping GT athletics which are already at a disadvantage to most of our opponents!
 

stinger78

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,377
No, this is simply a strategy. Your team gets to do the same thing on offense. Offense controls the ball, they control the tempo. This is completely different from a player faking an injury. How can you not see the difference?
OK, please read carefully… I am not stating equivalence. Please read that again. I know you can read.

Now. Though not equivalent actions, they both violate the spirit of the rules:
1. Stopping play to care for an injury is clearly the spirit of the game by the rules which support that - injury time outs.
2. Allowing both teams to get set for the upcoming play is clearly the spirit of game by the rules which support that - substitution rules.

Allowing extreme tempo where the O can call plays in advance and the defense cannot adjust is allowed but unethical.

Allowing players to fake injury to allow the D time to adjust is an unintended consequence of allowing extreme tempo.

The two are not equivalent, but they are related and both are an unethical violation of the spirit of the game rules.
 

kg01

Get-Bak! Coach
Featured Member
Messages
15,179
Location
Atlanta
OK, please read carefully… I am not stating equivalence. Please read that again. I know you can read.

Now. Though not equivalent actions, they both violate the spirit of the rules:
1. Stopping play to care for an injury is clearly the spirit of the game by the rules which support that - injury time outs.
2. Allowing both teams to get set for the upcoming play is clearly the spirit of game by the rules which support that - substitution rules.

Allowing extreme tempo where the O can call plays in advance and the defense cannot adjust is allowed but unethical.

Allowing players to fake injury to allow the D time to adjust is an unintended consequence of allowing extreme tempo.

The two are not equivalent, but they are related and both are an unethical violation of the spirit of the game rules.

Actually we'll stated.

Do folks not remember the reason they more strictly enforce substitution rules, meaning stopping play to allow defensive subs when offense subs?

Offenses were taking advantage of a gray area in the rules. Instead of just whining, they put rules in place to remove the inequity.

Now we have a clear situation where the defense is taking advantage of the gray. Your move, NCAA rules folks.
 

forensicbuzz

21st Century Throwback Dad
Messages
8,869
Location
North Shore, Chicago
OK, please read carefully… I am not stating equivalence. Please read that again. I know you can read.

Now. Though not equivalent actions, they both violate the spirit of the rules:
1. Stopping play to care for an injury is clearly the spirit of the game by the rules which support that - injury time outs.
2. Allowing both teams to get set for the upcoming play is clearly the spirit of game by the rules which support that - substitution rules.

Allowing extreme tempo where the O can call plays in advance and the defense cannot adjust is allowed but unethical.

Allowing players to fake injury to allow the D time to adjust is an unintended consequence of allowing extreme tempo.

The two are not equivalent, but they are related and both are an unethical violation of the spirit of the game rules.
I would say HUO is strategic and not unethical. If the powers that be want to take the advantage of controlling tempo away from the offense, they can modify the play clock rules to do that. Whether that happens or not depends on what the people in charge want. The game evolves.
 

stinger78

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,377
I would say HUO is strategic and not unethical. If the powers that be want to take the advantage of controlling tempo away from the offense, they can modify the play clock rules to do that. Whether that happens or not depends on what the people in charge want. The game evolves.
Ha! They’re both strategic, for that matter. IMO, it’s unethical. To fix the flopping, fix the ready to play issue… also IMPO.
 

forensicbuzz

21st Century Throwback Dad
Messages
8,869
Location
North Shore, Chicago
Actually we'll stated.

Do folks not remember the reason they more strictly enforce substitution rules, meaning stopping play to allow defensive subs when offense subs?

Offenses were taking advantage of a gray area in the rules. Instead of just whining, they put rules in place to remove the inequity.

Now we have a clear situation where the defense is taking advantage of the gray. Your move, NCAA rules folks.
Faking injuries is gaming the system not taking advantage of a gray area in the rules. If the refs could unequivocally know that an injury is faked, they could flag the defensive player for unsportsmanlike conduct or just allow the offense to run the play. They can’t, so they error on the side of player safety.
 

dressedcheeseside

Helluva Engineer
Messages
14,222
Integrity. Character. Sportsmanship. Ethics. … ‘89 alum here, and I was embarrassed of our team. Reflects poorly on our university. “Just because others do it” is a lame argument - and reflects poorly on those making this excuse. Ask yourself what it teaches the players about life and how to conduct themselves. What example are we setting for the students (and all other fans) that witness this? We are supposed to be developing leaders, right? We are better than this, or we should be…. All alums should call on the administration to FIX IT!
Thank you. I am an 89 alum as well. And I agree completely with your take on this. I don’t take those words that you wrote at the beginning of your post, lightly. Wrong is wrong and right is right. Winning by doing things right makes wins more sweet. Winning by pulling bush league BS tarnishes the win.

There’s no penalty against not shaking hands with the other team on the coin flip. But it sure is a bad look and very unsportsmanlike. just because something is not explicitly against the rules means it’s OK.
 

kg01

Get-Bak! Coach
Featured Member
Messages
15,179
Location
Atlanta
Faking injuries is gaming the system not taking advantage of a gray area in the rules. If the refs could unequivocally know that an injury is faked, they could flag the defensive player for unsportsmanlike conduct or just allow the offense to run the play. They can’t, so they error on the side of player safety.

That's literally the same thing.
 

stinger78

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,377
Faking injuries is gaming the system not taking advantage of a gray area in the rules. If the refs could unequivocally know that an injury is faked, they could flag the defensive player for unsportsmanlike conduct or just allow the offense to run the play.
Players are flopping because extreme tempo gives unfair advantage to the O. It’s a tactic, unethical or not, to even that inequity. So fix the inequity.
 

dressedcheeseside

Helluva Engineer
Messages
14,222
OK, please read carefully… I am not stating equivalence. Please read that again. I know you can read.

Now. Though not equivalent actions, they both violate the spirit of the rules:
1. Stopping play to care for an injury is clearly the spirit of the game by the rules which support that - injury time outs.
2. Allowing both teams to get set for the upcoming play is clearly the spirit of game by the rules which support that - substitution rules.

Allowing extreme tempo where the O can call plays in advance and the defense cannot adjust is allowed but unethical.

Allowing players to fake injury to allow the D time to adjust is an unintended consequence of allowing extreme tempo.

The two are not equivalent, but they are related and both are an unethical violation of the spirit of the game rules.
I disagree. As long as the ref puts the ball in play, why is it unethical to start the play right away.?
 

forensicbuzz

21st Century Throwback Dad
Messages
8,869
Location
North Shore, Chicago
Thank you. I am an 89 alum as well. And I agree completely with your take on this. I don’t take those words that you wrote at the beginning of your post, lightly. Wrong is wrong and right is right. Winning by doing things right makes wins more sweet. Winning by pulling bush league BS tarnishes the win.

There’s no penalty against not shaking hands with the other team on the coin flip. But it sure is a bad look and very unsportsmanlike. just because something is not explicitly against the rules means it’s OK.
I would say that it is against the rules. There’s just no way for the refs to discriminate between a fake injury or a legitimate injury. So, they allow the gamesmanship. Never the way I played the game.

Edit: the fact that the officials can’t discriminate between a legitimate injury and cheating does not make this a gray area in the rules.
 

stinger78

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,377
I disagree. As long as the ref puts the ball in play, why is it unethical to start the play right away.?
Once again, because it is obvious by the substitution rules that the game wants the O and D both to have equitable time to prepare for the next play.

ETA: The tempo was allowed to open up offenses in an era when D’s were dominant. That is no longer the case. It’s time to make a rule to give the D time to get set.
 

dressedcheeseside

Helluva Engineer
Messages
14,222
Once again, because it is obvious by the substitution rules that the game wants the O and D both to have equitable time to prepare for the next play.
If that is what the game wants, whatever that means, then why do the refs put the ball in play? They could just stand over the ball with their hand on it until the D calls the play. What is to prevent the D from dragging their feet and not getting ready for the next play just to kill clock?
 

roadkill

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,831
You're trying a little too hard. I said that claiming an exemption under false pretenses and claiming an injury timeout under false pretenses are only different in the expectation of punishment for the cheater. If that's all that matters to you, then they are the same.
I think I finally see your point. In your view, violation of tax law and faking an injury are both cheating although the latter does not currently involve a penalty. The difference is the penalty.

Maybe it’s just semantics, but one could easily argue that if it's within the rules, it's not cheating. Unethical (subjective) perhaps, but not cheating.
 

stinger78

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,377
If that is what the game wants, whatever that means, then why do the refs put the ball in play? They could just stand over the ball with their hand on it until the D calls the play. What is to prevent the D from dragging their feet and not getting ready for the next play just to kill clock?
They do that at times. You get past the D dragging tail by giving a D a certain amount of time to do to. It’s simple really.
 

roadkill

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,831
If that is what the game wants, whatever that means, then why do the refs put the ball in play? They could just stand over the ball with their hand on it until the D calls the play. What is to prevent the D from dragging their feet and not getting ready for the next play just to kill clock?
I have seen a team on defense deliberately take their time substituting while the ref has his hand on the ball to stop play, but the play clock is running. The team on offense has so little play clock left that they have to burn a timeout. Within the rules, apparently.
 
Top