Fake defensive injuries

[RonJohn]

So for the people here that are in favor of faking injuries as much as possible to give us every advantage possible, are you also ok with trying to injure players on the other team? Plenty of teams and players have been accused of this over the years and labeled as bush league for doing it, but if within the rules, you can essentially take out one of the other teams best players and potentially only lose a fairly meaningless player on your own team then why not do it?

I am not in favor of faking injuries. I am in favor of changing the rules so that it doesn't happen. I am not in favor of GT unilaterally changing the rules for GT only.

That is not anything like trying to intentionally injure a player. If it was found out and documented that a coach instructed a player to injure another player, that coach would likely be in serious trouble. Maybe not just related to football, but legally. It isn't even morally equivalent with the fake injury phenomenon.

EDIT: I drove six miles an hour over the speed limit today. Is that morally equivalent to an unprovoked assault against an old lady in a parking lot?

 

[WreckinGT]

I am not in favor of faking injuries. I am in favor of changing the rules so that it doesn't happen. I am not in favor of GT unilaterally changing the rules for GT only.

That is not anything like trying to intentionally injure a player. If it was found out and documented that a coach instructed a player to injure another player, that coach would likely be in serious trouble. Maybe not just related to football, but legally. It isn't even morally equivalent with the fake injury phenomenon.

EDIT: I drove six miles an hour over the speed limit today. Is that morally equivalent to an unprovoked assault against an old lady in a parking lot?

I mean, it happened. Sean Payton was suspended for a year for bountygate. While that seems like a harsh penalty, he still coaches and is making 18 million dollars a year. I wouldnt say he faced any "serious" trouble. That was in pro football where things are alot more organized and taken alot more seriously. We have all seen plays that seemed pretty obvious that a player was trying to take another player out. I think they are despicable, just like I think faking injuries is despicable but without being completely obvious these plays will never be flagged as trying to injure other players, especially by college referees. Colorado State almost beat Colorado last year largely aided by a pretty obvious bush league hit that took Travis Hunter out of that game and multiple games after that. Should we criticize such plays or are they ok because they are within the rules of the game?

 

[RonJohn]

I mean, it happened. Sean Payton was suspended for a year for bountygate. While that seems like a harsh penalty, he still coaches and is making 18 million dollars a year. I wouldnt say he faced any "serious" trouble. That was in pro football where things are alot more organized and taken alot more seriously. We have all seen plays that seemed pretty obvious that a player was trying to take another player out. I think they are despicable, just like I think faking injuries is despicable but without being completely obvious these plays will never be flagged as trying to injure other players, especially by college referees. Colorado State almost beat Colorado last year largely aided by a pretty obvious bush league hit that took Travis Hunter out of that game and multiple games after that. Should we criticize such plays or are they ok because they are within the rules of the game?

Well there is the "report" that bountygate was a cover up for an opiod ring.

Most players/coaches/fans want players to hit big and sting the other players. Very few want other players to be actually injured. Even Lawerence Taylor was shocked and immediately called for medics when he hit Theismann. Taylor was an animal on defense, but he didn't want people to be hospitalized from his hits. Bell rung, sure but not broken bones or ligaments.

If using the current rules to slow the game down is morally equivalent to intentionally breaking a players leg, why don't you answer my question about speeding. I went six miles an hour over the speed limit. Should I be in jail tonight? Apparently, that is morally equivalent to knocking an innocent old lady over the head with a baseball bat. That is a similar comparison to faking an injury vs intentionally injuring a player. Except speeding is against the law. Faking an injury is not against the rules in NCAA football.

 

[WreckinGT]

Well there is the "report" that bountygate was a cover up for an opiod ring.

Most players/coaches/fans want players to hit big and sting the other players. Very few want other players to be actually injured. Even Lawerence Taylor was shocked and immediately called for medics when he hit Theismann. Taylor was an animal on defense, but he didn't want people to be hospitalized from his hits. Bell rung, sure but not broken bones or ligaments.

If using the current rules to slow the game down is morally equivalent to intentionally breaking a players leg, why don't you answer my question about speeding. I went six miles an hour over the speed limit. Should I be in jail tonight? Apparently, that is morally equivalent to knocking an innocent old lady over the head with a baseball bat. That is a similar comparison to faking an injury vs intentionally injuring a player. Except speeding is against the law. Faking an injury is not against the rules in NCAA football.

The problem is the moral equivalency itself. It’s obviously not moral to pretend to be injured to help your team yet you are ok with it because it is within the rules and others are doing it. Trying to injure someone is just another way of trying to gain an advantage without much consideration for the moral implication. If other teams were doing it to us would you prefer that we also try to injure their players to create fairness? Plenty of players have done this. Most didn’t get into any significant trouble when they did it because it’s nearly impossible to prove that level of intent.

 

[Richland County]

Let me ask the question: Why do you think defensive players are flopping?

Copy cat league. One does it they all do it until they can't. The temp thing you mentioned isn't apples to apples. Refs are in a catch 22 when it comes to injuries. If UNC pulled that jr high ish against Tech 99% of this board would destroy their manhood and anything else he or she could think of. Win the right way is an easy concept don't a pus and cheat yourself.

 

[Richland County]

I’ve never seen that happen. I’ve never heard of that happening.

Happen to Tech.

 

[RonJohn]

I have seen a team on defense deliberately take their time substituting while the ref has his hand on the ball to stop play, but the play clock is running. The team on offense has so little play clock left that they have to burn a timeout. Within the rules, apparently.

With the rule that allows defensive substitutions, if the offense substitutes, any offensive substitutions need to happen before about 20 seconds on the play clock. The defense is supposed to be able to decide whether or not to sub, select players to sub, send those players in, those players have enough time to line up, and the players rotating out a "reasonable" amount of time to leave the field. If the offense substitutes with less than 15 seconds, it is almost guaranteed to use the play clock. If the offense decides to substitute players with 12 seconds on the clock, they are probably trying to force a bad matchup or force the defense into a substitution penalty. That is the reason the rule was implemented.

The bigger issue in my opinion is when the officials force the offense to wait, even when no substitution has been made. That has happened to the GT offense a few times.

 

[Vespid]

With the rule that allows defensive substitutions, if the offense substitutes, any offensive substitutions need to happen before about 20 seconds on the play clock. The defense is supposed to be able to decide whether or not to sub, select players to sub, send those players in, those players have enough time to line up, and the players rotating out a "reasonable" amount of time to leave the field. If the offense substitutes with less than 15 seconds, it is almost guaranteed to use the play clock. If the offense decides to substitute players with 12 seconds on the clock, they are probably trying to force a bad matchup or force the defense into a substitution penalty. That is the reason the rule was implemented.

The bigger issue in my opinion is when the officials force the offense to wait, even when no substitution has been made. That has happened to the GT offense a few times.

I have zero issues doing this when playing UNC. Their Refs, and I use "their" correctly, were not standing over the ball on many offensive subs. Guessing our coach's decided two can play at that game.

 

[slugboy]

The way to stop it is to make the player sit for a minimum of 3 plays.

The refs can call "delay of game" (5 yards) or "unsportsmanlike conduct" (15 yards) if they think a player is faking. They don't-- because doing that when a player is really injured would be bad

 

[RonJohn]

The problem is the moral equivalency itself. It’s obviously not moral to pretend to be injured to help your team yet you are ok with it because it is within the rules and others are doing it. Trying to injure someone is just another way of trying to gain an advantage without much consideration for the moral implication. If other teams were doing it to us would you prefer that we also try to injure their players to create fairness? Plenty of players have done this. Most didn’t get into any significant trouble when they did it because it’s nearly impossible to prove that level of intent.

I thought I answered that. It is not OK to try to intentionally injure players. (As long as our definition of "injure" is the same.) Teams and defensive linemen want to get to the QB early in the game so that he is thinking about hits and is sore later in the game. They don't want to cause broken bones or ligaments. This is nowhere close to feigning injuries. Intentionally injuring a player is against the rules. Not only against the rules, it could be prosecuted as assault and battery. It is against the law.

We are not as far apart as you seem to think we are. Feigning injuries is not good. It is not good for the sport. It is within the rules. In my opinion, the angst is misplaced. Saban was railing on Gameday on Saturday against Kiffin, even though I don't think he mentioned them specifically. I think that is the reason that this is even being discussed. If people would concentrate on changing the rules, then things will improve. If people continue to complain about GT, or about Kiffin, and say that no matter what the rules say -blah-blah-blah, then nothing will change. GT might unilaterally disadvantage themselves, but that will not improve the college game. Change the rule, and that will improve the college game.

 

[RonJohn]

The refs can call "delay of game" (5 yards) or "unsportsmanlike conduct" (15 yards) if they think a player is faking. They don't-- because doing that when a player is really injured would be bad

I don't think they are actually allowed to investigate injuries in game. Even if they could, I would not if I were an official. Officials are not medical professionals. Even if one of the officials is doctor, the have not have an opportunity to medically examine the player to know. Suppose an injury or feigned injury is a cramp. How can the official, even if a medical professional, know if the player experienced a cramp or not?

 

[Root4GT]

I am not in favor of faking injuries. I am in favor of changing the rules so that it doesn't happen. I am not in favor of GT unilaterally changing the rules for GT only.

That is not anything like trying to intentionally injure a player. If it was found out and documented that a coach instructed a player to injure another player, that coach would likely be in serious trouble. Maybe not just related to football, but legally. It isn't even morally equivalent with the fake injury phenomenon.

EDIT: I drove six miles an hour over the speed limit today. Is that morally equivalent to an unprovoked assault against an old lady in a parking lot?

If you recall in the NFL a decade or so ago the Saints had a “Bounty” system paying their players for injuring opponents. Their coaches, DC, HC and GM all faced suspensions/discipline by the League.

The example given was a false equivalency as you pointed out!

 

[stinger78]

The refs can call "delay of game" (5 yards) or "unsportsmanlike conduct" (15 yards) if they think a player is faking. They don't-- because doing that when a player is really injured would be bad

Yes, they could, but as you say, it would be bad form if they tossed a flag and the player were truly injured.

I don’t like the practice, and felt mildly embarrassed about it in Saturday. I’m glad sEcSPN didn’t pick up on it and make it a national issue. OTOH, I think it is patently unfair for an O to have a well-practiced set of plays and not allow the D to even set for what they likely know is coming. That violates the spirit of competitiveness to me.

 

[seanfloyd18]

This thread is all over the place, and a lot of folks are repeating the same things / arguments. I got a best friend at Ole Miss who has been big on this for a while so I’m going to paint a broader picture than some folks here.

Five years ago, Kirby / Saban were the two masterminds who had players flop EVERY time an opposing team got a 15-20+ yard play on them, the idea is simple: it’s not against the rules, slows play down, lets the defense reset and now the DC has time to plan an adjustment and not just lose to hurry up.

SEC programs complained to the SEC, primarily Lane Kiffin. They told him to get over himself, and he said he would make it a national headline if they didn’t stop him. Here we are 5 years later, with our own Saban disciple at HC and we are doing EXACTLY WHAT EVERY MAJOR COMPETITIVE PROGRAM DOES IN 2024.

I, for one, absolutely love this under one condition, and I hate it under the other condition, and you can see it fairly clearly when you think about it - and I haven’t seen anyone quite get to this point.

It feels so, so good to hear that entire opposing stadium booing a fake injury when we’re ahead and away. It feels like jabbing a rent free spot in the minds of the enemy and makes me smile every time I hear opposing fans annoyed by it.

That said, we don’t generally ever do it at home, and when opposing teams to do it us in our house, it’s obviously the reverse.

What I haven’t seen is a single good suggestion for a rule to fix it - making the faker sit out plays is a horrible option when you have the lack of roster parity we do in our sport. Top SEC programs can rotate the “faker” with much less drop off in the second string, so I think that solution would only stop weaker programs from using it against the “best” programs.

Maybe something to do with “upon injury, the opposing coach decides whether the clock stops or has a mandatory runoff” and entirely take away any “time” advantage - or maybe just fine the living hell out of the programs / coaches themselves. That would at least make it so the deepest rosters don’t still get away with it relative to everyone else.

 

[kg01]

For those that think this is the end of the world, did you refuse to use "word" on a professor when studying for tests - especially on those profs that would reuse questions?

Man you're getting crickets from all these holier than Jeebus "Tech men".

I used word whenever I could. Why wouldn't you?

 

[kg01]

No. Read my last post.

Sorry for the delayed response but the thread was moving a little fast for me. So, I've been over here faking an injury.

I think we can just agree to disagree on this one, btw.

 

[stinger78]

CheaterMan you're getting crickets from all these holier than Jeebus "Tech men".

I used word whenever I could. Why wouldn't you?

 

[TooTall]

There is a difference between being hurt and being injured. A hangnail can hurt and we have a great training staff that can take care of it.

"You. Play. To. Win. The. Game."

 

[kg01]

 

[Backstreetbuzz]

Funny, some of the ethical folks so upset by this are the same ones that were OK with blockers diving into defenders knees a few year ago, because it was legal. It was legal and all teams used it to a certain extent. The NCAA finally found a way to stop it. The NCAA must find a way to stop the fake injuries, but until they do, all teams will use it because it gives them an advantage.