Expansion Talk 2021

[CuseJacket]

People don't remember--and I don't remember all the details--but if the VA legislature hadn't gotten involved VT wouldn't be in ACC. They didn't bring much to the ACC, but they are the biggest school in a populous state with lots of eyeballs. WVU would bring less. It's not going to happen.

The Alliance will package attractive games for the networks in order to bid against the SEC. That's the direction this is going, and not expansion for the sake of expansion. CBS still has the SEC 3:30 games--not ABC/ESPN/Disney, who would like to have better games to compete in that time slot. The Alliance could make that happen.

Oh, I remember. Syracuse was the original ACC play, along with Miami and BC, before the VA governor and legislature forced/strong-armed the deal toward VT via UVA's vote.

Look at Syracuse vs. VT historically prior to that decision. Outside of Mike Vick years, Syracuse wins. And the divergence between the schools since that decision is remarkable. I think the VA legislature is a significant reason for Syracuse's decline in football (the other compounding reason and 1-2 punch was one of the worst HC hires in NCAA history).

 

[yjack]

One thing about the alliance I don't remember seeing . . . it provides a semblance of stability for recruits and recruiting.

 

[Technut1990]

Athletic Budgets

Athletic Budgets

247sports.com

I can’t find the AD stats for 2019, the last non Covid year but ;

In 2018 WVs athletic department spent more on its sports than all but 4 ACC schools at almost 99 million. Tech spent 75 million Total.

WV also outspent 5 Big 12 schools, 5 Big 10 schools, 7 PAC 12 schools and 3 SEC schools. Since they covered their budget that means they brought in at least 100 million from somewhere so this image of a poor school with limited fan appeal and interest is ludicrous.

they would come in just under Duke in The ACC who spends most of their budget on Basketball.

in other words they put more toward sports than the average of the the entire ACC

i know budgets have been reduced due to Covids impact but Tech fans saying WV brings nothing is odd given the fact Tech brings almost the smallest sports/football budget to all of college football. Baylor and Vanderbilt outspent us In football in 2019. Given we are in a state with Georgia I’m sure we bring less to the table than WV. I mean look at the football budgets for 2019 it’s sad where we were !

and although this isn’t a CPJ comment, I understand why he got tired.

Which schools spend the most on college football? Where does Syracuse rank?

A look at which schools spend the most on college football and which spend the least.

www.syracuse.com

 

[RonJohn]

.... but Tech fans saying WV brings nothing is odd given the fact Tech brings almost the smallest sports/football budget to all of college football. Baylor and Vanderbilt outspent us In football in 2019. Given we are in a state with Georgia I’m sure we bring less to the table than WV. I mean look at the football budgets for 2019 it’s sad where we were !

You can look at revenue and expenses by year of athletic associations that report the information:

NCAA Finances: Revenue & Expenses by School - USA TODAY

Which are the most profitable college athletic programs in the country? See a ranked listed, including total revenue and expenses. Brought to you by USA TODAY.

sports.usatoday.com

Not all of the private schools report, and a few states don't require that public schools report, so it isn't everybody. However, in terms of athletic revenue, WVU is 40th out of Division 1 schools. They pull in about $17 million more that GT, but you also need to consider that the payouts from the Big12 in 2019 averaged about $40 million and the ACC averaged about $30 million. If you take the difference in conference revenue, WVU had about $7 million more in revenue than GT. $7 million more is nice, but it isn't conference changing.

You also need to consider what revenue WVU could bring to the ACC, not what revenue WVU has for themselves. Currently, the biggest revenue increase would still come from television markets. The ACCN gets a small amount for TV subscribers around the country, but a bigger amount for TV subscribers inside of ACC schools broadcast areas. I know people will say that streaming is the future, but if WVU joins now, they will get a cut of the pie now. If they join now and bring the 175th TV market in the US to the table, that does not add anywhere near enough to the pie to take a 1/15th or 1/16th cut.

I would turn it around and ask you point blank: What revenue does WVU add TO THE CONFERENCE (not to themselves) that would justify giving them 1/15th of the ACC revenue?
I would also ask: If they are going to possibly add some additional revenue 10 years down the road, is the chance that they might add revenue sometime in the future worth making the gap larger in media payouts to each school between the ACC and SEC?

If you have ideas on how WVU can add revenue to the ACC pool right now, please tell me what they are because I don't see any. If you can't provide concrete ideas for how WVU adds the the ACC revenue pool right now, then why is it odd that I say they don't bring enough to justify adding them?

Iowa State has a similar football history, and a very large following. They are an AAU member. They would add the 68th, 90th, and 103rd TV markets. Kansas is bad at football, but they are an AAU member, and they would add the 32nd and 144th TV markets. Both of those Big12 members would add more immediate revenue to the ACC than WVU. Both of those schools have more in common with the ACC than WVU.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

Athletic Budgets

Athletic Budgets

247sports.com

I can’t find the AD stats for 2019, the last non Covid year but ;

In 2018 WVs athletic department spent more on its sports than all but 4 ACC schools at almost 99 million. Tech spent 75 million Total.

WV also outspent 5 Big 12 schools, 5 Big 10 schools, 7 PAC 12 schools and 3 SEC schools. Since they covered their budget that means they brought in at least 100 million from somewhere so this image of a poor school with limited fan appeal and interest is ludicrous.

they would come in just under Duke in The ACC who spends most of their budget on Basketball.

in other words they put more toward sports than the average of the the entire ACC

i know budgets have been reduced due to Covids impact but Tech fans saying WV brings nothing is odd given the fact Tech brings almost the smallest sports/football budget to all of college football. Baylor and Vanderbilt outspent us In football in 2019. Given we are in a state with Georgia I’m sure we bring less to the table than WV. I mean look at the football budgets for 2019 it’s sad where we were !

and although this isn’t a CPJ comment, I understand why he got tired.

Which schools spend the most on college football? Where does Syracuse rank?

A look at which schools spend the most on college football and which spend the least.

www.syracuse.com

According to your link on the bottom, WVU only spends more than two ACC teams on football, GT and Wake. Athletic budgets are not always a good indicator of what individual items are being funded. After all, until recently GTs budget had two basketball coaches getting paid to breathe.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

The bottom line is that if WVU could honestly add any real benefit to the conference, they'd be here already. The ACC already added UL, demonstrating that there was some wiggle room on the academic side, and everyone knows Swofford would have chased that $$ had it been a possibility.

 

[stech81]

You can look at revenue and expenses by year of athletic associations that report the information:

NCAA Finances: Revenue & Expenses by School - USA TODAY

Which are the most profitable college athletic programs in the country? See a ranked listed, including total revenue and expenses. Brought to you by USA TODAY.

sports.usatoday.com

Not all of the private schools report, and a few states don't require that public schools report, so it isn't everybody. However, in terms of athletic revenue, WVU is 40th out of Division 1 schools. They pull in about $17 million more that GT, but you also need to consider that the payouts from the Big12 in 2019 averaged about $40 million and the ACC averaged about $30 million. If you take the difference in conference revenue, WVU had about $7 million more in revenue than GT. $7 million more is nice, but it isn't conference changing.

You also need to consider what revenue WVU could bring to the ACC, not what revenue WVU has for themselves. Currently, the biggest revenue increase would still come from television markets. The ACCN gets a small amount for TV subscribers around the country, but a bigger amount for TV subscribers inside of ACC schools broadcast areas. I know people will say that streaming is the future, but if WVU joins now, they will get a cut of the pie now. If they join now and bring the 175th TV market in the US to the table, that does not add anywhere near enough to the pie to take a 1/15th or 1/16th cut.

I would turn it around and ask you point blank: What revenue does WVU add TO THE CONFERENCE (not to themselves) that would justify giving them 1/15th of the ACC revenue?
I would also ask: If they are going to possibly add some additional revenue 10 years down the road, is the chance that they might add revenue sometime in the future worth making the gap larger in media payouts to each school between the ACC and SEC?

If you have ideas on how WVU can add revenue to the ACC pool right now, please tell me what they are because I don't see any. If you can't provide concrete ideas for how WVU adds the the ACC revenue pool right now, then why is it odd that I say they don't bring enough to justify adding them?

Iowa State has a similar football history, and a very large following. They are an AAU member. They would add the 68th, 90th, and 103rd TV markets. Kansas is bad at football, but they are an AAU member, and they would add the 32nd and 144th TV markets. Both of those Big12 members would add more immediate revenue to the ACC than WVU. Both of those schools have more in common with the ACC than WVU.
[/QUOTE
I understand what you are saying , and if they don't bring in more revenue it would not be smart.
Which is why a find it funny when people say we need to move to the Big 10 why would they want us , same thing if people would be honest we would not increase their revenue to make up splitting the money by added us.

 

[RonJohn]

I don't know how the BTN contracts are set up, nor how the BTN charges for subscribers. Atlanta is the 7th largest TV market in the country. IF the BTN makes more money per subscriber in their home area, then GT would add significant revenue simply from the TV market. Fifteen years from now then the ACC contract expires, it is highly likely that the TV market won't matter as much, but for now it does. Also, it would get Big10 teams into Georgia for recruiting purposes.

If GT were going to move to the Big10, it would have happened in the 2012-2014 time frame. With the buyout and the GOR, GT could not afford to leave the ACC even with an extra $20 million in revenue per year.

EDIT: Even with extra money from the BTN, that would only at most add about half of the Big10 per team payout, so it wouldn't make immediate financial sense for the Big10 to add GT.

 

[BilldGopher]

My Comcast here in Minneapolis provides BTN as a channel as part of my "Digital Plus" package. I have no way to figure out what little bit BTN carves out of the total amount. BTW, I've got the SEC Network and PAC-12 Network. I've not looked to see if I have the ACC Network before.

Finally I can stream BTN content directly by going through my Comcast account.

This does not directly address RonJohn's point about contracts or subscriber costs. But...one of the reasons I still keep cable is that it is darn convenient. I am paying a premium for that I know. As for Comcast itself, the company has set it up so I can access streaming services through my Xfinity box and remote. I still have to have the separate accounts, but again it's very convenient at least for this luddite dinosaur.

 

[bobongo]

You can look at revenue and expenses by year of athletic associations that report the information:

NCAA Finances: Revenue & Expenses by School - USA TODAY

Which are the most profitable college athletic programs in the country? See a ranked listed, including total revenue and expenses. Brought to you by USA TODAY.

sports.usatoday.com

Not all of the private schools report, and a few states don't require that public schools report, so it isn't everybody. However, in terms of athletic revenue, WVU is 40th out of Division 1 schools. They pull in about $17 million more that GT, but you also need to consider that the payouts from the Big12 in 2019 averaged about $40 million and the ACC averaged about $30 million. If you take the difference in conference revenue, WVU had about $7 million more in revenue than GT. $7 million more is nice, but it isn't conference changing.

You also need to consider what revenue WVU could bring to the ACC, not what revenue WVU has for themselves. Currently, the biggest revenue increase would still come from television markets. The ACCN gets a small amount for TV subscribers around the country, but a bigger amount for TV subscribers inside of ACC schools broadcast areas. I know people will say that streaming is the future, but if WVU joins now, they will get a cut of the pie now. If they join now and bring the 175th TV market in the US to the table, that does not add anywhere near enough to the pie to take a 1/15th or 1/16th cut.

I would turn it around and ask you point blank: What revenue does WVU add TO THE CONFERENCE (not to themselves) that would justify giving them 1/15th of the ACC revenue?
I would also ask: If they are going to possibly add some additional revenue 10 years down the road, is the chance that they might add revenue sometime in the future worth making the gap larger in media payouts to each school between the ACC and SEC?

If you have ideas on how WVU can add revenue to the ACC pool right now, please tell me what they are because I don't see any. If you can't provide concrete ideas for how WVU adds the the ACC revenue pool right now, then why is it odd that I say they don't bring enough to justify adding them?

Iowa State has a similar football history, and a very large following. They are an AAU member. They would add the 68th, 90th, and 103rd TV markets. Kansas is bad at football, but they are an AAU member, and they would add the 32nd and 144th TV markets. Both of those Big12 members would add more immediate revenue to the ACC than WVU. Both of those schools have more in common with the ACC than WVU.

If I'm not mistaken, the only way the ACC can re-negotiate their poor TV contract is if they add another school. The best one currently available is WVU. Add them, and you can re-negotiate the entire contract.

 

[RonJohn]

If I'm not mistaken, the only way the ACC can re-negotiate their poor TV contract is if they add another school. The best one currently available is WVU. Add them, and you can re-negotiate the entire contract.

What does that add to ESPN's revenue? It will add 6 or 7 additional games, but that isn't going to bring a lot of money to ESPN. Why will ESPN pay more if they don't have more revenue? You can't negotiate if you have nothing to bargain with.

 

[bobongo]

What does that add to ESPN's revenue? It will add 6 or 7 additional games, but that isn't going to bring a lot of money to ESPN. Why will ESPN pay more if they don't have more revenue? You can't negotiate if you have nothing to bargain with.

You're missing the point. If the contract is as poor and one-sided as people say it is, when re-negotiated it should be more lucrative. Adding a school is the only way that can be done. West Virginia is the best available school right now that the ACC could add. It's not so much what WVU brings per se that is important. It is the fact that the contract cannot be re-negotiated without adding another school, and WVU is the best available school right now to do that. The ACC could wait - but would have to endure the weak contract they're under currently until they make a move. So if the ACC thinks it should have gotten a better deal and wants to fix it now, this is their chance to do so. In this way, adding another team might be worth far more than what that team alone brings. And WVU is the best currently available option.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

We are probably3-4 months away from any real answers. The committee will meet in September to review the results of the Summer Study session that was approved to look into CFP expansion. The smart money is the the Alliance shelves the proposal since it was pretty much written by the SEC and Big XII with no representation from the B1G, PAC12, or ACC. We will eventually see the playoff expand, but we will most likely see the Alliance use their power to make the changes less advantageous for the SEC. As we move into the next offseason I would expect a lot more to start coming out of the meetings in terms of long term strategy for CFB, including the beginning of the end of NCAA governance of the sport.

 

[Richard7125]

What does that add to ESPN's revenue? It will add 6 or 7 additional games, but that isn't going to bring a lot of money to ESPN. Why will ESPN pay more if they don't have more revenue? You can't negotiate if you have nothing to bargain w

I need some help; I'm new to posting. I inadvertently hit "reply" to this post and i can't figure out how to undo that without actually replying. What's the secret?

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

You're missing the point. If the contract is as poor as people say it is, when re-negotiated it should be more lucrative. Adding a school is the only way that can be done. West Virginia is the best available school right now that the ACC could add. It's not so much what WVU brings per se that is important. It is the fact that the contract cannot be re-negotiated without adding another school, and WVU is the best available school right now to do that. The ACC could wait - but would have to endure the weak contract they're under currently until they make a move. So if the ACC thinks it should have gotten a better deal and want to fix it now, this is their chance to do so. In this way, adding another team might be worth far more than what that team alone brings. And WVU is the best currently available option.

What you say is absolutely true. It should tell you all you need to know that your answer is correct yet there is no rush by anyone in the ACC to add WVU.

WVU would add money to each schools take home, but in the minds of the ACC schools, not enough to justify adding WVU.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

I need some help; I'm new to posting. I inadvertently hit "reply" to this post and i can't figure out how to undo that without actually replying. What's the secret?

Highlight and delete the quoted area in the box and then refresh the page. Sometimes it will bring the quoted area back. Just delete again.

 

[bobongo]

What you say is absolutely true. It should tell you all you need to know that your answer is correct yet there is no rush by anyone in the ACC to add WVU.

WVU would add money to each schools take home, but in the minds of the ACC schools, not enough to justify adding WVU.

According to media reports, the ACC is currently considering doing just that - adding WVU.

 

[bobongo]

Making the Case for WVU to the ACC

Since Texas and Oklahoma announced their coming move to the SEC, realignment talk has accelerated, we are making the case for WVU to the ACC.

lastwordonsports.com

From the article:

In a world filled with rapid-fire change that threatens to leave behind many of those fans (who still watch games . . . for now) who grew up watching more regionally-focused college football. One way the powers-that-be can combat that change and offer “stability” to long-time fans is to renew dead rivalries.

West Virginia has played 104 games against Pitt, 71 games against Syracuse, 52 games against Virginia Tech, 33 games against Boston College, 23 games against Virginia, and 20 games against Miami. Not each of those games represents a rivalry, per se, but they do offer compelling storylines and familiarity that can swim against the current.

 

[RonJohn]

What you say is absolutely true. It should tell you all you need to know that your answer is correct yet there is no rush by anyone in the ACC to add WVU.

WVU would add money to each schools take home, but in the minds of the ACC schools, not enough to justify adding WVU.

What evidence do you have that WVU would actually add money to each schools take home? I haven't seen anything that would lead me to believe that adding WVU would increase ESPN's revenue by $30-35 million. The great majority of ESPN's revenue is from subscription fees according to reports from people who watch that business. On the order of 80-80% of their revenue. Adding WVU doesn't add a region to the ACC's home base, so won't increase the ACCN by any significant amount. Six or seven random home WVU games are not worth $35 million to ESPN.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

According to media reports, the ACC is currently considering doing just that - adding WVU.

The only report I've seen is from Dave Wannstedt. Not sure how great a source he is for this.

That being said, it is entirely possible that the ACC adds WVU. As I stated earlier, we already threw out academics to get UL, so this isn't new territory for us. I still don't think adding WVU will significantly change the revenue unless there are additional assurances from the Alliance on scheduling marquee OoC games.