Expansion Talk 2021

[MountainBuzzMan]

View attachment 11024

Here you go with facts again messing up a perfectly good emotional disagreement

 

[g0lftime]

But was it FSU on Saturday or was it Alabama?

When I first moved to RTP there was an alum meeting in Raleigh and Dodd spoke to us. He said " we shouldn't expect to be Harvard six days a week and Alabama on Saturdays ". That was probably in the 1975 to 1980 time frame.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

You keep bringing up this National vs. regional garbage. This isn’t 1980 where you get one game a week to watch or you have to go to a stadium to see a game. Every game every where is on TV. That’s why I can sit in south GA and be a fan of Oregon. Or live in Cali and love Bama. High end players will go to schools that they’ve grown up watching in big games and will get them to the NFL. You are way over believing in this national strategy. There is not a high end team west of Oklahoma. There is not a high end team anywhere near the northeast. Fans and eyeballs will watch big time games with big time players regardless of what region of the country they are in. Marketing can only do so much when the product is inferior. The one thing about sports is you can’t fake it. Notre Dame has tried and then they get exposed and everyone knew it was coming because we have eyeballs. Your idea worked back in the days where no one saw the games and awarded titles based on newspaper accounts and records.

A few points:

• The ACC/B1G/PAC12 Alliance is happening. No whining changes that.
• The ultimate goal of this is to remove football from the governance of the NCAA
• Once the NCAA goes bye bye, schools like USC out west will likely reemerge stronger. (2 5*s already this year)
• The Alliance has already been successful, as it has put the SEC on notice that the other conferences outnumber them and can outvote them
• The SEC absolutely needs the B1G, ACC, and Pac-12 t be viable.
• The Big XII was doomed years ago when Nebraska left. It just took a while to finally die. UT and OU took the best route out of dodge.
• With current teams locked into the remaining three conferences through GoR, only G5 teams and remaining B-XII are out there to poach. None are particularly attractive.
• Unless the rules are changed, the scholarship limits currently in place are likely to remain static, which doesn't really matter because...
• There can only be so many starters on a given team, and...
• If you're not getting significant playing time, the scouts aren't seeing you, and you likely won't get drafted
• The SEC can negotiate for more money, and will likely get it, but their dream of a 12 team playoff is likely over for now, which hurts them more than the others

In the end, we can speculate and fuss, but the reality is that we can either all say woe is me and beg the SEC for mercy or band together and hold our own. I like the latter option...

 

[BleedingWhiteNGold]

The alliance is a voting block to control what happens to the playoff. It may be a scheduling agreement to get more non conference games for the networks. Sure WF vs Washington State isn’t getting any viewers. But start making games amongst Clemson, Miami, FSU, ND, a good UNC, Pitt, even us once Collins has another recruiting cycle or two with Ohio St, Michigan, Wisconsin, penn St, Oregon, USC, Washington, Stanford and a few others too and you’ll be able to close the media money gap too.

if these 41 schools wanted to create their own playoff they’d do just fine. And leave the SEC to do their own thing

 

[neb llarmus]

CPJ said it best at Tech they want you to be MIT Monday through Friday and be Florida State on Saturday. Not going to happen.

O’Leary said it, CPJ repeated it.

 

[neb llarmus]

I would dearly love to see that come to pass.

But I fear there is too much money to be made by expanding the playoffs.

By adding conference championship games, that expands the playoffs to 8 teams.

 

[Oldgoldandwhite]

If the Big 12 dissolves, the simplest solution would be the 4 conference champs or a fourth vs fifth to allow the smaller conferences a shot. Of course this would have to be approved by the all powerful ESPN. The real president of college sports.

 

[85Escape]

Let's blow it all up and have the US Congress fix this! Maybe they can create a "Department of Sports Fairness and Equity." Every few years we'll realign the conferences to ensure that our favorite teams have a good chance of getting to the playoffs. The new Department will take all of the money generated and equitably distribute 60% of it back to the schools. They'll keep that other 40% of course, being in charge is expensive after all! And we'll pass some rules that say that every player gets equal time on the field to ensure equity. We'll need to hire some firm to lobby for GT, of course. So we'll divert some of the money we are distributed to pay that high expense as well. In the end we'll have less money, less control and a poorer product. Sounds about right.

Just being stupid as usual, but it begs the real question: Any chance some government gets involved if the NCAA looks like it is about to dissolve?

 

[gville_jacket]

A few points:

• The ACC/B1G/PAC12 Alliance is happening. No whining changes that.
• The ultimate goal of this is to remove football from the governance of the NCAA
• Once the NCAA goes bye bye, schools like USC out west will likely reemerge stronger. (2 5*s already this year)
• The Alliance has already been successful, as it has put the SEC on notice that the other conferences outnumber them and can outvote them
• The SEC absolutely needs the B1G, ACC, and Pac-12 t be viable.
• The Big XII was doomed years ago when Nebraska left. It just took a while to finally die. UT and OU took the best route out of dodge.
• With current teams locked into the remaining three conferences through GoR, only G5 teams and remaining B-XII are out there to poach. None are particularly attractive.
• Unless the rules are changed, the scholarship limits currently in place are likely to remain static, which doesn't really matter because...
• There can only be so many starters on a given team, and...
• If you're not getting significant playing time, the scouts aren't seeing you, and you likely won't get drafted
• The SEC can negotiate for more money, and will likely get it, but their dream of a 12 team playoff is likely over for now, which hurts them more than the others

In the end, we can speculate and fuss, but the reality is that we can either all say woe is me and beg the SEC for mercy or band together and hold our own. I like the latter option...

Point 5 is a big one that I think a lot of people are forgetting. The SEC, even if they added a team across the US, needs other conferences/teams to be good competition. Since money is big driver, think of it this way, the SEC can only pump the Southeast for so much money. There's a lot more money to be made if the entire country is represented and competitive (and not just 1 team from that area). Anyone in business would tell you Apple needs Microsoft and Microsoft needs Apple, the competition drives innovation. The goal isn't to destroy the competition. It's known as infinite game theory. The SEC needs a strong Alliance, granted they want to stay just one step ahead.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

Let's blow it all up and have the US Congress fix this! Maybe they can create a "Department of Sports Fairness and Equity." Every few years we'll realign the conferences to ensure that our favorite teams have a good chance of getting to the playoffs. The new Department will take all of the money generated and equitably distribute 60% of it back to the schools. They'll keep that other 40% of course, being in charge is expensive after all! And we'll pass some rules that say that every player gets equal time on the field to ensure equity. We'll need to hire some firm to lobby for GT, of course. So we'll divert some of the money we are distributed to pay that high expense as well. In the end we'll have less money, less control and a poorer product. Sounds about right.

Just being stupid as usual, but it begs the real question: Any chance some government gets involved if the NCAA looks like it is about to dissolve?

The only involvement I could see is state governments mandating state schools play each other regardless of conference affiliation. I think some states already mandate this, but if we were to see conferences break away I could see more states with two major schools in opposing conferences put this into play.

 

[Richard7125]

People keep forgetting the SEC also includes Miss, Miss St, Vandy, South Carolina, Kentucky, Missouri and a down on their luck Tennessee (50% of the current conference). Do people really think good, smart HS football players on the West Coast, Mid-West, Northeast, Atlantic Coast (and even some in the Southeast) are going to pick those schools over Ohio State, Michigan, ND, Penn State, Wisconsin, USC, Oregon, Clemson, UNC, FSU. That's just not going to happen. The SEC is definitely a strong conference, but even with adding Texas and Oklahoma, there will only be 3 to 4 truly elite teams in the SEC. It's not a conference of 16 Alabama caliber football programs.

 

[GT flunkout]

People keep forgetting the SEC also includes Miss, Miss St, Vandy, South Carolina, Kentucky, Missouri and a down on their luck Tennessee (50% of the current conference). Do people really think good, smart HS football players on the West Coast, Mid-West, Northeast, Atlantic Coast (and even some in the Southeast) are going to pick those schools over Ohio State, Michigan, ND, Penn State, Wisconsin, USC, Oregon, Clemson, UNC, FSU. That's just not going to happen. The SEC is definitely a strong conference, but even with adding Texas and Oklahoma, there will only be 3 to 4 truly elite teams in the SEC. It's not a conference of 16 Alabama caliber football programs.

Most of this thread is hand-waving freakoutery. You would think the SEC added Ohio State and USC the way this is talked about, rather than the two best programs in a sick dying conference choosing to move to a geographically adjacent conference that includes many of their traditional rivals. The money thing will sort itself out. The conferences with the most full stadiums and open eyeballs will get more money than others. Same as always.

 

[Vespid]

I think you are wrong. If a team wants to leave they will find a way to leave. They always have.

Texas and OK aren't leaving right now because of ONE YEAR left on a GOR....and NOBODY has TX money. You're suggesting an ACC team is going to walk away from a majority of their media revenue for 15 years, or some sugar daddy interest is going to buy it out with a 30 something year speculative payback, or the ACC is just going to "renegotiate" their leverage away? Not impossible....but highly, highly unlikely. This is not a Maryland situation....not even close.

Some of you guys need to grow a pair. The ACC is in a much stronger position than you realize. Looks like Comcast just picked up ACCN...that's a BIG DEAL.

 

[forensicbuzz]

If that were to happen (and I don't think it would), why would it matter? If we aren't playing UGA anymore, who cares whether they recruit better or worse? A lot of people have wanted a semi pro league for the kids not interested in school, what's the issue with splitting the SEC off to be that league and allowing the rest of us to continue having actual student athletes?

Personally, I wouldn't like that.

 

[forensicbuzz]

I am sure that Finebaum agrees with you. Not everybody believes all of the SEC marketing hype.

Yeah, but a lot of the kids do. That's why the SEC puts the most kids in the NFL. It's because the highest-level elite kids, and a lot of the next tier, buy into the hype of the SEC. ESPN props this up too because it's in their best interest.

 

[forensicbuzz]

I haven't ignored that point. I have been trying to say that the argument you are making is a marketing statement. A national alliance could have marketing statements about being a "national" championship instead of a regional championship. People in California and Chicago(not the schools themselves) would probably say that they are playing for the cow tipping championship since they are all backwards redneck programs.

You seem to be inclined to believe that the SEC has already won that marketing war.

Rumor is we will find out what the alliance is up to this week. I seriously doubt they will explicitly exclude the SEC. I do think it is possible they will have rules and conditions that the SEC would have never agreed to if they were involved in the negotiation. If there is a separation, I think it will be because the SEC won't join, not because the others won't allow them to join.

They haven't won, but they've shown they're much better at playing the game than most of the rest. Also, with ESPN behind them, they've got the largest propaganda-distributing mechanism in the country reinforcing that fallacy.

 

[yeti92]

Personally, I wouldn't like that.

Why?

 

[forensicbuzz]

Why?

For the same reason I don't like to watch minor league baseball, U19 soccer, and junior hurling. It's an inferior product and I know it's an inferior product. Yes, it's MY team, but I don't think I'd have as much interest in GT Football if we would have gone to 1AA back in the early 80's like Pettit wanted to do. Everyone has their preferences, that's mine. I'd still want us to win, but I wouldn't care as much.

 

[RonJohn]

David Hale had an article a few days ago discussing the alliance negotiations. He does have some anonymous quotes for ADs, but he doesn't have any concrete information. However, some points related to things being discussed in this thread:

• The ACC, Big10, and Pac12 have similarities. The Big12 and SEC have similarities. He basically says that the SEC/Big12 don't really match philosophically with the other three and vice versa.
• The majority of the remaining Big12 teams don't match the philosophy of the other three conferences. A quote from the article: ".....the ACC, Big Ten and Pac-12, which prioritize academic profile and an expansive set of Olympic sports, don't overlap much with universities like West Virginia and TCU."
• The 12 team playoff was negotiated between the Big12, SEC, and ND. There were no representatives from the ACC, Big10, nor PAC12 in the room. He suggests that the idea an expanded playoff isn't dead, but that the other conferences probably won't vote for a 12 team playoff this year. They will likely push to negotiate more and find out why 8 or 10 team playoffs wouldn't work. --My take is he is basically saying that those conferences weren't involved in the negotiations to this point, and aren't going to just agree to what was decided by the Big12/SEC/ND.
• The alliance might push for an open bidding process for CFP games, like the NFL. Don't give total control of the entire playoffs to one media company. --My take, this is some push back on ESPN.
• He doesn't exactly say it in the article, but the mood is that the Big12 is now dead. There are few teams that would actually fit into the ACC/Big10/PAC12. The SEC has no reason to take any any more Big12 teams, and the remaining Big12 teams don't have any trust in the SEC anyway.
• ND isn't directly affected yet, but could easily be. No one conference has enough influence to force ND's hand. However, yf the alliance forces the CFP to remain at 4 teams, and if they add requirements like conference champions only, then ND will lose a lot of their ability to be independent.

Answering the biggest questions about the ACC, Big Ten, Pac-12 alliance and what comes next

Addressing the biggest questions surrounding the potential alliance between the three leagues and forecasting what could unfold over the coming weeks and months.

www.espn.com

 

[GoJacketsInRaleigh]

They haven't won, but they've shown they're much better at playing the game than most of the rest. Also, with ESPN behind them, they've got the largest propaganda-distributing mechanism in the country reinforcing that fallacy.

ESPN owns the ACC Network. Why wouldn't they distribute propaganda to support the ACC?