Expansion Talk 2021

[Augusta_Jacket]

Well, the B1G guy hasn't been there very long either.

Yeah. I posted again a little later in the thread that I went back to check and saw that he had been on the job less than two years himself. Lot's of new blood and fresh ideas hopefully.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

These long term media rights can easily be renegotiated. And if they can’t be then they can be bought out by big money folks who want to see a SEC super conference that includes the Ohio States, Clemson’s, FSU’s, etc. Money and/or contracts have never stood in the way of major shifts. Nothing is different now. There are enough billionaires out there who would love to be the Jerry Jones of the college world. Now with NIL busting down the facade it’s just a matter of time until real money takes over. To believe a media rights contract that extends into the mid 2030’s will still be in place at that time just isn’t understanding what is going on.

Billionaires don't become billionaires by spending half a billion buying out a teams media rights to make a maybe 10-15 million extra a year. It would take a long time to recoup ROI on that. We won't have anything to worry about until the GOR is 2-3 years away from expiring.

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

Billionaires don't become billionaires by spending half a billion buying out a teams media rights to make a maybe 10-15 million extra a year. It would take a long time to recoup ROI on that. We won't have anything to worry about until the GOR is 2-3 years away from expiring.

I think you are wrong. If a team wants to leave they will find a way to leave. They always have.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

I think you are wrong. If a team wants to leave they will find a way to leave. They always have.

Noted. Most of us think you are wrong.

FWIW, I went to lunch with a Clemson alum last Friday. He's not a mega donor, but he gives a LOT of money to their AA every year through his business. We were discussing this and he said that most of the boosters he knows have a strong preference for remaining in the ACC. Clemson gets a lot of grief on this board, but they have done a credible job at making some very smart decisions lately. He said point blank that there is very little interest in them abandoning the ACC right now from within the boosters. Don't mistake fan-service blogs and websites peddling 'what if' articles as gospel.

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

The very reason that The SEC has enjoyed dominance for years is that it has been a sports conference. The others are trying to, for better or worse, field teams with more educated members. I’m not trying to degrade people but there is a clear difference between going to college for a shot at the NFL and going to college for employment in a technology field if your pro chances don’t work out.

As long as there’s Georgia, Tech in general will not get a majority of the “pure athletes” who are focused on their command of the game. The converse of that is if education is the main factor Georgia won’t get as many students focused on high tech studies.

The ACC and others seem to want to compete without really competing

Thank you. I’ve been saying that for years on this board. In athletics there is no “in between”. You either train or you don’t. GT and many others have tried to ride the middle of having real student athletics and still trying to win. It doesn’t work like that. The SEC has sold their soul regarding education in order to win. And they succeed across all sports.

 

[forensicbuzz]

That could happen in the future. If Texas and Oklahoma were to join the SEC in 2022, and the other conferences started excluding the SEC in 2022, I don't think that the SEC would be considered that far above the other conferences. If Texas and Oklahoma join and the other conferences expand the playoffs and allow the SEC to get 6 teams in a 12 team playoff every year, then they would end up being considered that far above the other conferences. If the other conferences exclude the SEC, the SEC might end up getting to the point you are describing but they don't have enough strength to overcome the fact that they are only a regional conference at the moment. I believe you are close to Chicago. This season, are the people in Chicago going to be more interested in what Alabama and Florida are doing or what Wisconsin, Northwestern, and Ohio State are doing?

They'll follow their teams and grouse about the SEC getting all the press. But, if all the best players were going to 1 league, they (tOSU, Michigan, etc.) would be all over their Administration to get them into that elite league. Then it would snowball.

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

And I keep looking at this going...the SEC won what? Isn't this about winning and losing football games? The SEC is Bama, plain and simple. three fourths of the conference is vey comparable to the ACC. In fact I would argue that Miami, UNC are probably closing in on UGA. And As I said, let's see what happens 9/4. UGA was a so so team last year.
Money, There is only one Saban out there now and all the money in the world can not buy you wins unless you find a very good coach. And frankly there aren't that many out there.

Ok, sorry but the stats don’t say that. Over the last 20 years the SEC has won 11 National Titles in football by 4 different teams (Bama. Auburn, LSU, and Florida). That’s over 50%. The next closest is the ACC with 4 by 3 different teams (Clemson, FSU, and Miami). The SEC won 7 in a row from 2006 to 2012. They’ve won the last 2 in a row by 2 different teams and 4 of the last 6.

To beat your enemy you gotta respect them.

 

[RonJohn]

They'll follow their teams and grouse about the SEC getting all the press. But, if all the best players were going to 1 league, they (tOSU, Michigan, etc.) would be all over their Administration to get them into that elite league. Then it would snowball.

But you are going in circles. You originally said that IF the SEC becomes considered the "A-league", then the top players will want to go there exclusively. I retorted that it is possible for that to happen in the future, but if the SEC is isolated it will make it more difficult to get to that level because of regionality. Now, this response seems to imply that it is a given that the SEC WILL get all of the top players no matter what part of the country they are from. IF they are isolated, the SEC might be able to use marketing to convince the rest of the country that the SouthEastern championship is actually the national championship, but it is also very possible that they wouldn't be able to.

 

[forensicbuzz]

But you are going in circles. You originally said that IF the SEC becomes considered the "A-league", then the top players will want to go there exclusively. I retorted that it is possible for that to happen in the future, but if the SEC is isolated it will make it more difficult to get to that level because of regionality. Now, this response seems to imply that it is a given that the SEC WILL get all of the top players no matter what part of the country they are from. IF they are isolated, the SEC might be able to use marketing to convince the rest of the country that the SouthEastern championship is actually the national championship, but it is also very possible that they wouldn't be able to.

I'm not going in circles. Everything I've said is linear. My points were unrelated. The first one was about players and the perceptions of elite HS players and coaches, this one was regarding boosters of currently elite teams that would be on the outside looking in. It is always a circle with the players as in the more elite players in the league, the more the undecided elite players will want to join that league. Reach a critical mass and then you have programs on the outside that are being adversely affected with recruiting and will seek to become part of the new elite.

They don't have to convince the rest of the country, they just need to convince the elite athletes that these teams are going to be their best opportunity to shine.

 

[RonJohn]

Ok, sorry but the stats don’t say that. Over the last 20 years the SEC has won 11 National Titles in football by 4 different teams (Bama. Auburn, LSU, and Florida). That’s over 50%. The next closest is the ACC with 4 by 3 different teams (Clemson, FSU, and Miami). The SEC won 7 in a row from 2006 to 2012. They’ve won the last 2 in a row by 2 different teams and 4 of the last 6.

To beat your enemy you gotta respect them.

Blah, blah, blah. Alabama has won 6 of those national championships. LSU won 3. Auburn and UF each won 1. UF has had some up and down years. Auburn had one great year, lost the SEC championship in one year, and has been an also-ran except for that. LSU has been all over the map. They won the title in 2019, then went 50% in 2020. Alabama is the only consistently great team in the SEC.

Finebaum and his followers say that the SEC is the best because they win rivalry weekend. When the ACC wins rivalry weekend, those games don't really matter. When WF beats Mississippi, it doesn't mean anything because Mississippi is a bottom feeder but when Mississippi beats top 5 UF a few weeks after that, it is proof that the SEC is top heavy. People who live and breath by Finebaum don't understand how to actually use statistics. In fact they will use a statistic to show how dominate that SEC is, then the next year they will discount that statistic if it shows something different. The general tactic is to make a decisions, then look for statistics that support your belief.

 

[RonJohn]

I'm not going in circles. Everything I've said is linear. My points were unrelated. The first one was about players and the perceptions of elite HS players and coaches, this one was regarding boosters of currently elite teams that would be on the outside looking in. It is always a circle with the players as in the more elite players in the league, the more the undecided elite players will want to join that league. Reach a critical mass and then you have programs on the outside that are being adversely affected with recruiting and will seek to become part of the new elite.

They don't have to convince the rest of the country, they just need to convince the elite athletes that these teams are going to be their best opportunity to shine.

And my response was that IF the SEC is isolated to being simply a Southern entity, it will be much harder for them to reach that pinnacle. You seem to be accepting that the SEC is the goal of every elite player already. Do football players in Wisconsin not dream of playing at Wisconsin? Do football players in California not dream of playing at USC? Do football players in Ohio not dream of playing at Ohio State? I am in the Southeast and see all of the SEC hype. You are in the Midwest, so you could probably answer whether high school football players currently discount Wisconsin, Northwestern, and Ohio State and only dream of playing for LSU or Alabama. I think the reason that the conferences are meeting to discuss an alliance is to ensure that they can remain relevant. If they just let the SEC do anything they want to do without anything to counter it, we will get to that point. However, I don't think we are there yet.

 

[Coloradojacket]

Ok, sorry but the stats don’t say that. Over the last 20 years the SEC has won 11 National Titles in football by 4 different teams (Bama. Auburn, LSU, and Florida). That’s over 50%. The next closest is the ACC with 4 by 3 different teams (Clemson, FSU, and Miami). The SEC won 7 in a row from 2006 to 2012. They’ve won the last 2 in a row by 2 different teams and 4 of the last 6.

To beat your enemy you gotta respect them.

Understand but most of those are Saban and Alabama. Ole Miss, Miss State, Kentucky, Vandy, South Carolina, Arkansas, Missouri and now Auburn, Tennessee....not exactly terrors to have to play.
My point is that this is not really about the SEC, it is the arms war with Nick Saban and right now it is more than money.

 

[WreckinGT]

I think you are wrong. If a team wants to leave they will find a way to leave. They always have.

Then why are OU and TX waiting until 2025?

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Then why are OU and TX waiting until 2025?

Because that’s the date they decided they really wanted to leave

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

Understand but most of those are Saban and Alabama. Ole Miss, Miss State, Kentucky, Vandy, South Carolina, Arkansas, Missouri and now Auburn, Tennessee....not exactly terrors to have to play.
My point is that this is not really about the SEC, it is the arms war with Nick Saban and right now it is more than money.

So you are simply discounting National Titles by LSU, Florida, and Auburn by saying it’s all Saban? Listen, we all know games are won in the trenches which is why are all excited that Collins has been filling out trenches. It’s not all Saban. Auburn won because they had everything in place and when that generational QB came to then it took them to the top. Same with LSU. The SEC as a whole has depth along the lines because they don’t play school. To simply discount multiple teams using the same formula to win Natties just isn’t being honest. If we had Cam Newton no way we win a Natty because we didn‘t have the other parts.

I agree that not every year those SEC teams are strong. But, the stats tell us they are at a level with their 85 that if they get a special QB they win it. The ACC outside of Clemson is not anywhere close to that depth (because we play school and war daddies go to the SEC to get drafted not for school. Again, they have had 4 teams win titles in 20 years (2 in the last 2 years). If anything Saban is making all of them better to beat him.

 

[Technut1990]

Its not a regional thing. If and I say ”if” because I’m not going to look for stats, the SEC schools are easier to get into AND graduate from then by default a majority of true athletes that seek to use college as a stepping stone to the Pros will enroll in the SEC. There has been a lot of discussion here about AAU schools and their standards, I’ll assume we all agree ACC schools are harder academically. If both are true then which conference gets the B & C high school stud RB ?

Im not knocking Tech, The ACC or trying to elevate The SEC but it’s just a given that The SEC will enroll MORE highly regarded SAs than the other conferences. I’m not sure about The PAC 12s academic standards outside of Stanford so there may be options for west coast kids.

To freeze out the SEC everything has to be the same, you just can’t freeze out any conference that has predominantly southern state schools who are known for their football and who have lower academic standards. The avg. SAT score at Auburn is 1320 and At Duke it’s 1510 whose gonna get the majority of best athletic SA’s ? Auburn will get 5 for every 1 at Duke.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

Thank you. I’ve been saying that for years on this board. In athletics there is no “in between”. You either train or you don’t. GT and many others have tried to ride the middle of having real student athletics and still trying to win. It doesn’t work like that. The SEC has sold their soul regarding education in order to win. And they succeed across all sports.

 

[Technut1990]

https://www.collegesimply.com/colleges/florida/university-of-florida/admission/

https://www.collegesimply.com/colleges/georgia/georgia-institute-of-technology-main-campus/admission/

Techs acceptance rate is lower by far and their SAT standards are much higher

 

[85Escape]

Yeah, academically it isn't even close. It's about the same difference between us and them academically as it is in football. The average ACC school is so far ahead of the average SEC school academically that it isn't even debatable by those of us who recruit regularly. Night and Day. But for some reason if we tout someone's athletic prowess that's cool, but to tout someone's intelligence is somehow demeaning to those less gifted. Narrative.

But I don't think the Alliance is interested in 'closing out the SEC.' Why would they be? They simply want to make sure that the circularity machine that is the SEC doesn't close everyone else out. You know how it is...the SEC is the most awesome because of...well, Alabama. Therefore all the schools that Bama beats every year are also good...for some reason. So they all get ranked highly, and when they lose to each other it is 'quality losses.' When they get beat by someone from outside the conference it is a 'fluke', because we just know that the SEC is better, right? With a 12 game championship the SEC is hoping to get six of the slots, get all the payout and slowly but surely push the other conferences out of the picture.

What they are doing isn't bad or evil, but is it a bit dirty and anyone who apologizes for them is either an idiot, naïve or has a vested interest in that outcome (in my opinion.)

Their goal is to make as much money on the backs of free athlete labor as possible. More money = higher AD pay = lake houses and European Vacations. Follow. The. Money.

 

[Coloradojacket]

https://www.collegesimply.com/colleges/florida/university-of-florida/admission/

https://www.collegesimply.com/colleges/georgia/georgia-institute-of-technology-main-campus/admission/

Techs acceptance rate is lower by far and their SAT standards are much higher

CPJ said it best at Tech they want you to be MIT Monday through Friday and be Florida State on Saturday. Not going to happen.