Damon Stoudamire

dtm1997

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CDS confirmed aspects of his offense on ACCN this evening - pace & space, 5 out, small ball, playmaking wings, versatile guards, guards setting picks for guards...

Nothing surprising. A lot of terms folks have guessed at already. I'm sure there will be video posted shortly. Good interview. Mentioned a recruit visit starting tonight, which is Kante (didn't mention name, obviously).
 

calvin forever

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CDS confirmed aspects of his offense on ACCN this evening - pace & space, 5 out, small ball, playmaking wings, versatile guards, guards setting picks for guards...

Nothing surprising. A lot of terms folks have guessed at already. I'm sure there will be video posted shortly. Good interview. Mentioned a recruit visit starting tonight, which is Kante (didn't mention name, obviously).

Papa Kante? Would be a helluva nice get so late in the cycle.
 

Techster

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CDS confirmed aspects of his offense on ACCN this evening - pace & space, 5 out, small ball, playmaking wings, versatile guards, guards setting picks for guards...

Nothing surprising. A lot of terms folks have guessed at already. I'm sure there will be video posted shortly. Good interview. Mentioned a recruit visit starting tonight, which is Kante (didn't mention name, obviously).

Didn't Pastner use a lot of 5 out (with Lammers) with wings and guards cutting and setting picks early during his tenure here?

Seems like we went away from that in the later years.
 

gte447f

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Didn't Pastner use a lot of 5 out (with Lammers) with wings and guards cutting and setting picks early during his tenure here?

Seems like we went away from that in the later years.
Not really, as I recall. Lammers operated out of the high post, but he sometimes stretched it out to the top of the key and beyond, and he would sometimes roll from there to the 3 point area on the wing. It was Princeton when Princeton was working. It worked because lammers had the passing and shooting skills to make it work. We haven’t really had that since he graduated.
 

slugboy

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Didn't Pastner use a lot of 5 out (with Lammers) with wings and guards cutting and setting picks early during his tenure here?

Seems like we went away from that in the later years.
I remember him attempting a 5 out for four or five games
 

ESPNjacket

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Not really, as I recall. Lammers operated out of the high post, but he sometimes stretched it out to the top of the key and beyond, and he would sometimes roll from there to the 3 point area on the wing. It was Princeton when Princeton was working. It worked because lammers had the passing and shooting skills to make it work. We haven’t really had that since he graduated.
Banks was proficient at it also but not as versatile as Lammers.
 

57jacket

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I don't know Pacific but I'll take a shot at the Celtics.

They are all in on next gen stats using spacing and talent to focus the offense almost exclusively on 3 point shots or dribble drive attack the rim. You can see that in their shot chart from Game 7 Yes they will shoot some mid range shots but that is generally at the end of the clock or when they find the lane crowded and no kick out. IMO Brown and Smart shoot most of the mid range. That is the 20K foot view but I think the important view is to look how they run with and without Horford on the court.

Horford is a 40+% 3 point shooter. Highest on the team I think. With him they generally park him in the corner as a stretch 5 and pull the opposing 5 out of the paint simply on the threat of his shot. He will drive the close out but the key element is the threat of the 3 causes the lane to generally be clear or he is open for a kick out. So they run almost exclusively a 5 out set with Horford in the corner and other guys setting picks to get either movement or matchups that they exploit. Tatum (or Brown) is more of a point forward in this offense and they really don't run a PG focused set. I won't go into any specific sets as we don't have a Horford and as such won't be mimicing the Celtics 5 out look - at least not immediately.

For next year it is more instructive IMHO to look at the Celtics when they have Robert Williams in the game. 6'9" 230 lb high energy/high motor who plays a lot like a bigger even more athletic Franklin. Zero 3 point shots for the year and an average of 8 PPG on 71% shooting. Definition of a player you don't run a play for. Also only shot 61% from the FT line so no idea why he ever saw the court :cautious::barefoot: What you see with him looks a whole lot like the 4 out we ran with Franklin at the end of the year after we dumped the modified princeton - but with a bit more emphasis on creating mismatches especially in secondary transition. A lot more options than this but conceptually Williams will look to set an early high (past the top of the key) ball screen to see if he can either force a switch or beat his defender on a rim run. He generally then goes to the dunker spot while the perimeter 4 run their action looking for a dump off. He can come back for a second ball screen on occasion. I don't recall seeing him set a lot of off ball screens. Could be wrong there. He definitely is not a facilitator and rarely gets the ball except at the rim.

While I have focused on the 5 as I think that is what will be the limiting/controlling aspect of the offense, the key to the Celtics is obviously the talent of Tatum and Brown. Both of those guys can simply beat their guy off the dribble and get a shot pretty much whenever they want. So the Boston offense IMHO isn't so much focused on getting them open clean looks off of lots of off ball movement and screens instead is focused more on generating switches on these guys till they get the matchup they want and can exploit. Then it becomes dribble drive and lay off to the dunker or kick out with 2 rotation passes to an open 3 - but the key is the dribble drive. It is conceptually different than say the Golden State offense which is much more on off ball movement and screening but also has a Draymont Green who can facilitate from the mid post.

I fully expect us to go with one big and 4 perimeter players and look a lot like Boston with Williams. A lot of focus on causing switches and mismatches - One of the things I think we were bad at last year. I will be really interested to see what wrinkles he puts in as we obviously don't have talents like Tatum and Brown and our guys will need some help to get into position for shots or to create dribble drive opportunities. That will be the chess game for him.
Thanks. Excellent analysis. Looking forward to the season.
 

YlJacket

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I don't know Pacific but I'll take a shot at the Celtics.

They are all in on next gen stats using spacing and talent to focus the offense almost exclusively on 3 point shots or dribble drive attack the rim. You can see that in their shot chart from Game 7 Yes they will shoot some mid range shots but that is generally at the end of the clock or when they find the lane crowded and no kick out. IMO Brown and Smart shoot most of the mid range. That is the 20K foot view but I think the important view is to look how they run with and without Horford on the court.

Horford is a 40+% 3 point shooter. Highest on the team I think. With him they generally park him in the corner as a stretch 5 and pull the opposing 5 out of the paint simply on the threat of his shot. He will drive the close out but the key element is the threat of the 3 causes the lane to generally be clear or he is open for a kick out. So they run almost exclusively a 5 out set with Horford in the corner and other guys setting picks to get either movement or matchups that they exploit. Tatum (or Brown) is more of a point forward in this offense and they really don't run a PG focused set. I won't go into any specific sets as we don't have a Horford and as such won't be mimicing the Celtics 5 out look - at least not immediately.

For next year it is more instructive IMHO to look at the Celtics when they have Robert Williams in the game. 6'9" 230 lb high energy/high motor who plays a lot like a bigger even more athletic Franklin. Zero 3 point shots for the year and an average of 8 PPG on 71% shooting. Definition of a player you don't run a play for. Also only shot 61% from the FT line so no idea why he ever saw the court :cautious::barefoot: What you see with him looks a whole lot like the 4 out we ran with Franklin at the end of the year after we dumped the modified princeton - but with a bit more emphasis on creating mismatches especially in secondary transition. A lot more options than this but conceptually Williams will look to set an early high (past the top of the key) ball screen to see if he can either force a switch or beat his defender on a rim run. He generally then goes to the dunker spot while the perimeter 4 run their action looking for a dump off. He can come back for a second ball screen on occasion. I don't recall seeing him set a lot of off ball screens. Could be wrong there. He definitely is not a facilitator and rarely gets the ball except at the rim.

While I have focused on the 5 as I think that is what will be the limiting/controlling aspect of the offense, the key to the Celtics is obviously the talent of Tatum and Brown. Both of those guys can simply beat their guy off the dribble and get a shot pretty much whenever they want. So the Boston offense IMHO isn't so much focused on getting them open clean looks off of lots of off ball movement and screens instead is focused more on generating switches on these guys till they get the matchup they want and can exploit. Then it becomes dribble drive and lay off to the dunker or kick out with 2 rotation passes to an open 3 - but the key is the dribble drive. It is conceptually different than say the Golden State offense which is much more on off ball movement and screening but also has a Draymont Green who can facilitate from the mid post.

I fully expect us to go with one big and 4 perimeter players and look a lot like Boston with Williams. A lot of focus on causing switches and mismatches - One of the things I think we were bad at last year. I will be really interested to see what wrinkles he puts in as we obviously don't have talents like Tatum and Brown and our guys will need some help to get into position for shots or to create dribble drive opportunities. That will be the chess game for him.
I feel a bit sheepish after Boston's effort against Miami last night. But it did point out one issue that I think may carry over to CDS's efforts at GT. Boston's offense - even last night - is really good at spacing the floor and working to keep the lane open. And when Tatum and Brown are "on" it is a wonderful thing to watch. But last night there were only sort of "on" and Miami was doing a really good job on defense - and you saw a lot of possessions where Tatum or Brown got the ball 15/18 feet from the basket in an isolation situation and had to make one on one plays with help coming. IOW the offense wasn't doing much to help them - it was iso playing.

To say the least GT does not have a Tatum or Brown - even if you look relative to the talent we will be playing against. One of the things I will be watching for is how CDS puts the wrinkles into his version of the 5 out / 4 out sets in order to help Kelly or whomever get an advantageous matchup or get the ball in position to do something (shot/drive/whatever) and not just depend on spacing and winning one on one battles. Can he bring a bit of Denver or GS to the sets to help players who are not nearly as skilled as Tatum and Brown? That is part of the transition from the pro game and the Boston sets that I am going to be curious to see.
 

orientalnc

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I feel a bit sheepish after Boston's effort against Miami last night. But it did point out one issue that I think may carry over to CDS's efforts at GT. Boston's offense - even last night - is really good at spacing the floor and working to keep the lane open. And when Tatum and Brown are "on" it is a wonderful thing to watch. But last night there were only sort of "on" and Miami was doing a really good job on defense - and you saw a lot of possessions where Tatum or Brown got the ball 15/18 feet from the basket in an isolation situation and had to make one on one plays with help coming. IOW the offense wasn't doing much to help them - it was iso playing.

To say the least GT does not have a Tatum or Brown - even if you look relative to the talent we will be playing against. One of the things I will be watching for is how CDS puts the wrinkles into his version of the 5 out / 4 out sets in order to help Kelly or whomever get an advantageous matchup or get the ball in position to do something (shot/drive/whatever) and not just depend on spacing and winning one on one battles. Can he bring a bit of Denver or GS to the sets to help players who are not nearly as skilled as Tatum and Brown? That is part of the transition from the pro game and the Boston sets that I am going to be curious to see.
Boston runs that offense to take advantage of the skills that Tatum and Brown possess. Unless someone steps up for us, we won't run the iso very often. That said, the whole plan for Boston is to create mismatches on Tatum and Brown. Last night Miami countered that. The Heat and Celtics are pretty evenly matched, so don't expect the Boston offense to dominate.
 

MidtownJacket

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Boston runs that offense to take advantage of the skills that Tatum and Brown possess. Unless someone steps up for us, we won't run the iso very often. That said, the whole plan for Boston is to create mismatches on Tatum and Brown. Last night Miami countered that. The Heat and Celtics are pretty evenly matched, so don't expect the Boston offense to dominate.
Really hope Kelly comes back and looks for this kind of role (not that he is an equal of Tatum or Brown scoring wise) but he does fit well in a "get a mismatch with some motion" players
 

nod

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tbglover

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I’m not seeing that, seems like C’s are fighting pretty hard after being down 3-0, series now 3-2.
This was printed after Game 3 when the Celtics were blown out. Since then they have been putting in a good effort
 

kg01

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I think what we've seen is regression to the mean for both teams. MIA was playing at an uncharacteristically high level at the same time BOS was scuffling. Now that it's at game 7, anyone could win.

Eta. The talent advantage rests with BOS and it always has.
 

Peacone36

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I think what we've seen is regression to the mean for both teams. MIA was playing at an uncharacteristically high level at the same time BOS was scuffling. Now that it's at game 7, anyone could win.

Eta. The talent advantage rests with BOS and it always has.
Not everyone understands regression to the mean.
 

kg01

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Sometimes I can’t tell when you are being mean or if you are just regressing.
Oof. So, if Im hearing you right, you're basically saying peac is basically a late-30's pitcher still tryna go out there are rely on his fading fastball?

Even though all he can do is squeeze real hard and poot one over the plate at about 82 mph so he's getting hammer'd every night?

Is that basically what you're saying? That's harsh, NE stinger.
 
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