Coronavirus Thread

[LawyersGunsandMoney]

The "Fuhrer" bunker? Really? I am working from home and actually find that I am working more, not less. We have my wife's 85 year old mother living with us; who has a history of respiratory problems. Guess what? We are super cautious about going out and tend to stay away from folks in the grocery store or other places that don't wear masks. We don't want to risk her health by being cavalier in this day in time. We certainly don't want an eternal lockdown - we need to get our kid out of the house and doing stuff, but we also don't want to rush it. I recognize that people want to get back to work and I am ok with that. But let's also recognize that we are not through with this and need to continue to be cautious.

I allowed that some people hold to their position in good faith. I assume that’s you. My issue is with the ones who seem to think this is the Walking Dead but with Netflix and takeout. I didn’t identify anyone here as that. I don’t know you. I mean the people I know in real life.

I’ll even grant you that many people on team 2 have gone too far and are disrupting law enforcement and private businesses. However it’s not as widespread as the media likes to portray.

 

[LawyersGunsandMoney]

Right, but I don't know anybody who thinks operating a church right now without any changes is a good idea. Just because we can find some that do doesn't mean they amount to a material percentage of churches overall. We can't science by anecdote. We can't shut down all restaurants, for example, because there are some out there who aren't behaving safely.

But more than this: I’m still nervous about what constitutes an emergency. Some folks could (and do) argue that heart disease is a serious national health crisis; it targets poor people and children (vulnerable groups); it is not essential; it damages public health ($$$$ lost to economic loss and medical costs); it has overrun the health system. Ergo, it’s not entirely incoherent to say the national interest is best served by banning fast food.

We don’t do that here because in America you really do have the right to binge on cheese whiz until you suffer a heart attack.

 

[LibertyTurns]

I started to post this article/video, yesterday; but frankly, was not totally comfortable with it. It makes me squirm a little. But here you go... related to what you just posted. They use a metric "Years of Lost Life"
https://www.justfacts.com/news_covi...nnOh6_-uZ3ijB2dRTxVgVLTIO9LwNAvwCISHq7mGch9rc

We make the same decision with traffic lights. You have to kill enough people to get a traffic light, even more to put up an overpass. The “we want to kill Granny” crowd want a traffic light at every driveway. The rest of us just want to be left alone. We’ll look both ways before we cross the street like our Mothers taught us to do.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

But more than this: I’m still nervous about what constitutes an emergency. Some folks could (and do) argue that heart disease is a serious national health crisis; it targets poor people and children (vulnerable groups); it is not essential; it damages public health ($$$$ lost to economic loss and medical costs); it has overrun the health system. Ergo, it’s not entirely incoherent to say the national interest is best served by banning fast food.

We don’t do that here because in America you really do have the right to binge on cheese whiz until you suffer a heart attack.

Obesity is a major risk factor in all kinds of health issues, but certainly is with COVID-19. Perhaps we need to declare a national health emergency to mandate exercise and set maximum daily calorie intakeS.

 

[LawyersGunsandMoney]

I'm a little of #1 and #2, there is more nuance than you are laying out. I am a federal worker, working form home, zero disruption in my cash flow. My wife is a therapist and while she has been able to do telehealth options from home, that is a temporary measure because eventually the insurance companies will rescind their "telehealth from home exemption". she can still do remote therapy, but it will have to be in her office. I am being recalled into a building of about 300 in a massive cubicle farm on June 22. There are strict face covering and cleaning guidelines for my workplace.

I don't think everything should stay locked down, but I think that large gatherings should be banned (concerts, movies, churches). I think face coverings should be mandated. I think any business who can effectively follow the guidelines should be allowed to be open.

The problem for me is that so many of your #2 people want to leave their masks off, and live in FREEDOM!!! MY FB timeline was full of cross familial gatherings, pool parties, group beach outings. It is no wonder infections are spiking again.

Do you think it’s realistic to expect people in a continent-straddling empire of some 350 million souls of many cultures and tongues and locales to live under social distancing for up to two years? Asking a collective body to pit abstract concepts of public health against hardwired instinctual sociality just isn’t going to work long term. We need to keep to the original goal of not overwhelming hospitals.

 

[FredJacket]

Obesity is a major risk factor in all kinds of health issues, but certainly is with COVID-19. Perhaps we need to declare a national health emergency to mandate exercise and set maximum daily calorie intakeS.

I like this. A BMI check at say DisneyWorld. You get to skip everyone in line with a higher BMI. Incentives where it hurts.

 

[LawyersGunsandMoney]

I like this. A BMI check at say DisneyWorld. You get to skip everyone in line with a higher BMI. Incentives where it hurts.

And unlike some of the pandemic-inspired discrimination, obesity is not a protected class! We could literally pass legislation for mandatory fat camps and it would be less unconstitutional than some things I’ve seen proposed or implemented.

 

[Wrecked]

There is no essential need for church SERVICES. Which, I feel I've been pretty clear about. As you said, you can get your worship on online, all that is missing is the social aspect - which is not essential. I am not suggesting banning churches...

Communion is an essential part of some church services, for some, it is the major part of the service. Kinda hard to take communion online. Religion is the essential essence of why we exist (in my belief) and one of the main reasons its a fundamental right GUARANTEED in our Constitution. Yes one can practice religion without a church, but where two or more or gathered in Jesus' he will be there. For you to believe its not essential is fine, but for you to say its not essential for someone else is dismissive of their beliefs.

 

[LawyersGunsandMoney]

Communion is an essential part of some church services, for some, it is the major part of the service. Kinda hard to take communion online. Religion is the essential essence of why we exist (in my belief) and one of the main reasons its a fundamental right GUARANTEED in our Constitution. Yes one can practice religion without a church, but where two or more or gathered in Jesus' he will be there. For you to believe its not essential is fine, but for you to say its not essential for someone else is dismissive of their beliefs.

In person corporate worship with communion is essential to my theology, but we have tried to practice stringent safety standards. I don’t think I can worship online, but if other people feel they can I am not going to cast aspersions on them.

 

[GoldZ]

We make the same decision with traffic lights. You have to kill enough people to get a traffic light, even more to put up an overpass. The “we want to kill Granny” crowd want a traffic light at every driveway. The rest of us just want to be left alone. We’ll look both ways before we cross the street like our Mothers taught us to do.

Sorry LT (sorry because imo you are a good poster), but this is an empty hat. The Granny crowd wants you to wear a fkn mask....ok? Like your Mother would have taught you to do.

 

[LibertyTurns]

Sorry LT (sorry because imo you are a good poster), but this is an empty hat. The Granny crowd wants you to wear a fkn mask....ok? Like your Mother would have taught you to do.

Probably a bad analogy, but this whole C19 deal & the hand wringing over freedom/no freedom is tiring. An avowed Libertarian (think it might have been @LawyersGunsandMoney) declared aptly that we should allow people to choose & respect their choices.

 

[takethepoints]

If we are willing to shut down the entire country, put 40 million people out of work, and spend trillions of printed money to fight the problem, surely we can focus an adequate percentage of those efforts on the worst part of the problem. A tiny fraction of Americans live in nursing homes and senior care type facilities, yet in most states they count for over half the deaths. If it means restricting visitors, full time full on PPE, and everything else, then why can't we do that? 4% of the population lives in those facilities and comprise 50% of the deaths. Shouldn't be that difficult of a problem to make a significant improvement in the death rate when its confined to such a small group.

Or you could do what they did in Kerala. See:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...helped-save-it-from-covid-19?CMP=share_btn_tw

This isn't rocket science by any means; you identify the carriers, find their contacts, and isolate/treat both. What you are talking about is what happens when you don't plan to take on the disease and get your rear in gear. And that is what we have been doing since we first learned about it. If a state in India with a per capita income of ~ $3000 a year can do this, so could we.

Of course, it helps if you have a democratic government run by a left front built around the Commies. They take planning seriously in Kerala. It's a very interesting place. Here's some material on it:

https://msuweb.montclair.edu/~franker/frankepaperskerala.htm

A quick look is Franke's youtube vids.

 

[takethepoints]

Finally a sane thought in this whole thread. If we as a country spent a TINY percentage of what we have been spending in stimulus money to quarantine the truly at risk, we could reduce our death rate dramatically. We have been using a shotgun when a laser scalpel would have worked better.

This might be true. Problem = the results of the Indiana survey I posted here recently indicated that 45% of the infected cases were asymptomatic; i.e. around half of all the infected cases didn't know they had the disease yet and were shedding virus all over the place. I agree that we could do a WHOLE lot better then we are, but saying that we can just isolate people in nursing homes and all of a sudden our problems with the disease will be over is magical thinking. I might also point out two other salient facts:

* There are 51M people over 65 in the US and 41M who are under 65 and have serious medical conditions. We are not talking about a small number of potential deaths and illnesses here. That's 38% of the total adult population of the country. (https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-cov...serious-illness-if-infected-with-coronavirus/) I also note that the bulk of those over 65 live in rural areas where health care delivery has been compromised.

• As pointed out above, in many states about 50% of all deaths (not cases, deaths) are in nursing homes. That leaves 50% of the other deaths and a larger percentage (we don't have the data) of severe cases to be distributed among the rest of the population. Why am I not reassured?

 

[Deleted member 2897]

This might be true. Problem = the results of the Indiana survey I posted here recently indicated that 45% of the infected cases were asymptomatic; i.e. around half of all the infected cases didn't know they had the disease yet and were shedding virus all over the place. I agree that we could do a WHOLE lot better then we are, but saying that we can just isolate people in nursing homes and all of a sudden our problems with the disease will be over is magical thinking. I might also point out two other salient facts:

* There are 51M people over 65 in the US and 41M who are under 65 and have serious medical conditions. We are not talking about a small number of potential deaths and illnesses here. That's 38% of the total adult population of the country. (https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-cov...serious-illness-if-infected-with-coronavirus/) I also note that the bulk of those over 65 live in rural areas where health care delivery has been compromised.

• As pointed out above, in many states about 50% of all deaths (not cases, deaths) are in nursing homes. That leaves 50% of the other deaths and a larger percentage (we don't have the data) of severe cases to be distributed among the rest of the population. Why am I not reassured?

You love to just make things up. I don’t get it. Who here is saying just isolate people in nursing homes and magically things will clear up? Come on man. We’re saying when 50% of the deaths are from 4% of the population not spread out but living in clearly defined facilities, we can do better.

On contract tracing, I’m not sure why you bring up communism and also why you’re so obsessed with something you contend we are all but ignoring. It sounds like you have no idea states are already doing this, and that they’ve been doing it for a long time, and about 100,000 people are employed around the country to do it. We got a contact back in March because our teenage daughter was determined to have possibly come in contact with someone who had tested positive. Can we do better? Of course. I do admit to getting a chuckle about the moving target. We need to be Singapore. Oops let’s be South Korea. Oops let’s ge Germany. Oops let’s be New Zealand. Let’s be like a communist state in India! I mean you’re right - locking people up in windowless rooms under the thumb of armed police will in fact help stop the spread. LOL.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

You love to just make things up. I don’t get it. Who here is saying just isolate people in nursing homes and magically things will clear up? Come on man. We’re saying when 50% of the deaths are from 4% of the population not spread out but living in clearly defined facilities, we can do better.

On contract tracing, I’m not sure why you bring up communism and also why you’re so obsessed with something you contend we are all but ignoring. It sounds like you have no idea states are already doing this, and that they’ve been doing it for a long time, and about 100,000 people are employed around the country to do it. We got a contact back in March because our teenage daughter was determined to have possibly come in contact with someone who had tested positive. Can we do better? Of course. I do admit to getting a chuckle about the moving target. We need to be Singapore. Oops let’s be South Korea. Oops let’s ge Germany. Oops let’s be New Zealand. Let’s be like a communist state in India! I mean you’re right - locking people up in windowless rooms under the thumb of armed police will in fact help stop the spread. LOL.

Also, being communist, Kerala shut down all their hotels and stopped both international and domestic transportation. To even drive around in a car you had to get permission and a time restricted QR Code to show through checkpoints. All kinds of things you don’t do in a free society.

 

[RonJohn]

This might be true. Problem = the results of the Indiana survey I posted here recently indicated that 45% of the infected cases were asymptomatic; i.e. around half of all the infected cases didn't know they had the disease yet and were shedding virus all over the place. I agree that we could do a WHOLE lot better then we are, but saying that we can just isolate people in nursing homes and all of a sudden our problems with the disease will be over is magical thinking.

I had said pretty far back that policies that prevented people from moving and businesses which had no possible (or extremely unlikely) impact on slowing the virus would eventually cause people to push back very hard. In at least one state, people were prevented from fishing in a state park by themselves. Now some people believe they have a Constitutional right to enter a Family Dollar without a mask even if the property owner requests that they wear a mask.

I am not interested in discussing (or at least arguing about) the politics, but that is a large part of the problem. Politicians don't want to discuss actual issues and actual solutions because you can't do that in "talking points". News outlets don't want to discuss actual issues and actual solutions because it doesn't make exciting television/radio for ratings. Politicians want to bash the other side. News outlets want to cover: deaths, misery, politicians arguing. Any discussion about relaxing regulations even lightly is termed "opening up". According to how things are reported, "opening up" is going to cause great death and misery, even if it is only allowing a father to take his son to a state park and fish. According to how things are reported, "opening up" is going to get the economy back on track, even if it is only allowing a father to take his son to a state park and fish.

If things had not been so politically divisive on both sides from the beginning, it might be easier now to get the public to follow policies that actually can make a difference for the disease and for the economy. As it is, there are still people who are afraid to walk out of their homes and there are people who want to get in the face of and scream at anyone who wears a mask in public. Too many people are fully on "this side" or "that side" and too few people are acting like a society of Americans.

 

[Techster]

If things had not been so politically divisive on both sides from the beginning, it might be easier now to get the public to follow policies that actually can make a difference for the disease and for the economy. As it is, there are still people who are afraid to walk out of their homes and there are people who want to get in the face of and scream at anyone who wears a mask in public. Too many people are fully on "this side" or "that side" and too few people are acting like a society of Americans.

This.

I just want our elected officials to give us the facts and let us make our own decisions. It's a f'ing travesty real numbers are being obfuscated or flat out being manipulated. It makes it so hard to conduct business, and for scientists to help guide the public.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

I had said pretty far back that policies that prevented people from moving and businesses which had no possible (or extremely unlikely) impact on slowing the virus would eventually cause people to push back very hard. In at least one state, people were prevented from fishing in a state park by themselves. Now some people believe they have a Constitutional right to enter a Family Dollar without a mask even if the property owner requests that they wear a mask.

I am not interested in discussing (or at least arguing about) the politics, but that is a large part of the problem. Politicians don't want to discuss actual issues and actual solutions because you can't do that in "talking points". News outlets don't want to discuss actual issues and actual solutions because it doesn't make exciting television/radio for ratings. Politicians want to bash the other side. News outlets want to cover: deaths, misery, politicians arguing. Any discussion about relaxing regulations even lightly is termed "opening up". According to how things are reported, "opening up" is going to cause great death and misery, even if it is only allowing a father to take his son to a state park and fish. According to how things are reported, "opening up" is going to get the economy back on track, even if it is only allowing a father to take his son to a state park and fish.

If things had not been so politically divisive on both sides from the beginning, it might be easier now to get the public to follow policies that actually can make a difference for the disease and for the economy. As it is, there are still people who are afraid to walk out of their homes and there are people who want to get in the face of and scream at anyone who wears a mask in public. Too many people are fully on "this side" or "that side" and too few people are acting like a society of Americans.

Yup, and we have the perfect storm - a bunch of politicians already in the middle of trying to impeach Trump, announcing they think the economic damage from the virus can get Trump out of office. And Trump is a vile bull in a china shop - he intentionally says and does things specifically to bother people. I mean, we all know who he is so there is no need to add more illustrations. But we have the perfect storm of imbeciles in charge. I can't wait to read Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx's books they write after the dust settles.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

Nationally, we just had 3 straight days under 20k new cases per day. That's the first time we've had that in the US since March.

 

[takethepoints]

Also, being communist, Kerala shut down all their hotels and stopped both international and domestic transportation. To even drive around in a car you had to get permission and a time restricted QR Code to show through checkpoints. All kinds of things you don’t do in a free society.

Yet the "left front" keeps getting elected, over and over and over again.

There's a reason for that. This explains it:

https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED400149.pdf

Take a look.