Coronavirus Thread

[BuzzStone]

I have a question for those on here who are still in the workforce (no slight to you @Supersizethatorder-mutt). What is your company policy as far as sick leave & COVID-19?

Same policy as before. Use your vacation days if you have them, then STD.

 

[Techster]

Secretary Azar has not always given the president the worst-case scenario of what could happen. My understanding is he did not push to do aggressive additional testing in recent weeks, and that's partly because more testing might have led to more cases being discovered of coronavirus outbreak, and the president had made clear - the lower the numbers on coronavirus, the better for the president, the better for his potential reelection this fall.

---

The president famously axed a team in the White House about two years ago that was focused specifically on pandemic preparedness. He cut funding for a program that predicted when viruses could jump from animals to humans basically around the same time that this new coronavirus appears to have jumped from animals to humans in China. And there are big parts of the bureaucracy that he has either tried to cut or otherwise alienated and driven people away. I do think, Terry, it's possible that some of these moves have been overly emphasized. Several officials pointed out to me that the White House pandemic preparedness team was made up of just three or four people. And if that's the dividing line between a pandemic or not, the United States is perhaps more vulnerable than we realize. And we still have career scientists like Tony Fauci, who's clearly a star, working to fight this outbreak. But it does come back to the president bigger picture. He's chased off experts when we need them most, and he's claimed that he can get scientists back when he needs them, which is just not true.

Outside of the economic toll the virus will have (as we are seeing in the markets currently), this is the toll the virus can have from a medical standpoint which I touched on above:

The information that I have is the outbreak is almost certainly coming at some level, but what health officials can still do is slow the outbreak, mitigate the outbreak, for a bunch of very good reasons. One reason is because there's only so much capacity in the system if everyone gets sick or significant amounts of people get sick at the same time.

In a previous life, I worked for a hospital consulting firm, and hospitals used to have many more beds than they do now. They very aggressively have cut back on their capacity because they didn't want to have a lot of empty wards that they weren't using. That may make sense at normal times, but in a crisis moment, it means there's only so many beds to go around. Health officials don't want a crunch of people rushing to the hospital at the same time. It's bad for coronavirus patients, and it's just as bad for everyone else if doctors are spread thin and worn down.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

You should start by getting outside of your bubble.



So how has the United States' response been?

"Our response is much, much worse than almost any other country that's been affected," Jha says.

He uses the words "stunning," "fiasco" and "mind-blowing" to describe how bad it is.

What's not being widely reported (yet...but don't worry, I'm sure it's going to blow up very soon), and this is may be scarier than the virus itself because the virus itself can be contained and mitigated, is that there seems to be willful acts by our government to suppress the actual number positive cases for political optics. Willful ignorance and bad acts by our government can not be mitigated or contained. In fact, they shut down a lab in Washington for using a test that was developed to identify the first case of community contact in the United States, but since it was not the "official" CDC test (that was later found to give false readings) they told the facility to suspend all testing and shut them down. Testing is still not being widely done, even though we have the means from the private sector and independant labs, because testing leads to more positive identifications. For some (doesn't take a giant leap to figure out who), positive identification is a bad thing when governments in every other country battling this are aggressively seeking out positive infections to contain it and mitigate it. We had a chance for containment earlier, and now we've lost that window.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/11/podcasts/the-daily/coronavirus-us-testing.html?showTranscript=1

The United States is now rapidly, and literally, becoming a petri dish. I heard an infectious disease expert say that most people don't take these things seriously until someone they know, or they themselves, becomes infected and dies. I would never wish that on anyone, but if people don't take these things more seriously, then people will die. Even if you're not elderly or have a underlying health issues, you can still get extremely sick to the point is hospitalizes you. THAT is what people are ignoring...everyone is just looking at death totals. There is a WIDE band of what can happen when you become infected. It's not just a low fever or death. Quite a few will become hospitalized. Even if hospitalization doesn't lead to death, it can lead to inundating our medical systems and taking away resources that would otherwise be targeting other issues.

Let's get something straight. This virus is NOT the fault of our government. They did not create it. However, they are ultimately responsible for the containment and mitigation of it. So far they have failed horribly in containment, and now they are failing horribly at mitigating it.

That one part you said about Washington is an example of how people are taking incompetence and turning it into some sinister political took. There’s waaay to much injection of opinion - we are doing X because Trump Y. That’s 99.9% always the writers opinion and they have no evidence behind it. The CDCs first batch of tests were all f’d up. That’s why they ordered people to throw hem out and start over - not o keep the numbers down. And our FDA processes are a mess. It takes years to get certified as a testing and production facility. That’s part of what Dr. Fauci said when he said the rest of the world is set up to ramp up testing, but not us. It’s important we separate our governments incompetence from our hatred and disdain for Trump. He can’t just wave a magic wand and change this.

We should all remember that our government is the one who couldn’t even implement cash for clunkers correctly. We don’t hardly do anything right or well. I hope we continue to remember all this every time our first reaction is to give yet another thing to the government to run.

 

[Techster]

That one part you said about Washington is an example of how people are taking incompetence and turning it into some sinister political took. There’s waaay to much injection of opinion - we are doing X because Trump Y. That’s 99.9% always the writers opinion and they have no evidence behind it. The CDCs first batch of tests were all f’d up. That’s why they ordered people to throw hem out and start over - not o keep the numbers down. And our FDA processes are a mess. It takes years to get certified as a testing and production facility. That’s part of what Dr. Fauci said when he said the rest of the world is set up to ramp up testing, but not us. It’s important we separate our governments incompetence from our hatred and disdain for Trump. He can’t just wave a magic wand and change this.

We should all remember that our government is the one who couldn’t even implement cash for clunkers correctly. We don’t hardly do anything right or well. I hope we continue to remember all this every time our first reaction is to give yet another thing to the government to run.

Why is it that you never read anything before you respond. I'm not trying to attack you, but this is a repeated pattern from you.

For instance: It's not opinion that test labs across the nation have developed their own tests to identify positive samples for the coronavirus. In fact, several article I've posted as well as others has pointed that out. Is it true that some labs take years to develop FDA "approved" test? Sure, but there is a waiver in times of dire circumstances that can be done to speed of the process. Dr Chu (a lab scientist in Washington that ID'd "patient zero" in the US) applied for such waiver and never heard back. In fact, they shut her lab down. Again, that is pointed out in the articles. Would you deem this a "dire" circumstance?

We don't need a "magic wand". You're telling me small countries like Taiwan and Vietnam with FAR less resources can get testing done, ID the infected, contain them, and mitigate the spread...but the United States will need several years to do this because it takes years to get certified? Your remark is absolutely bonkers.

That is my whole point. Smaller nations, with far less resources, are getting ahead of the threat this virus represents, but the United States can't? Our federal goverment has pretty much been nonexistent in all of this outside of trying to enact monetary policy...which if their goal was to prop up the markets, it's failed. Oh, and there's that travel ban...which is too late considering outbreaks in different states is being reported daily. It's already here.

Again, it's not Trump's fault the virus is at our shores. It is his fault he's not doing more...in fact, he has the power to go to the CDC and FDA and tell them that if there are test out there that can ID positive virus samples, fast track it so we can aggressively get that done. Especially since the CDC can't seem to get out of their own way. That still has not happened. Let's go further...did you know that these tests can be made by individual labs, and how to do it is readily available? Probably not since you didn't read any of the articles that were posted. BTW, that's how Dr Chu developed the test to identify the US's "patient zero".

 

[Deleted member 2897]

This guy runs Bidens digital campaign. This is the sort of ridiculousness that is unhelpful. Accusing Trump of intentionally trying to make the virus worse.



This is from the guy who has been wrong about every major foreign policy in his career. Iraq, the surge, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, ISIS, and so on.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

Why is it that you never read anything before you respond. I'm not trying to attack you, but this is a repeated pattern from you.

For instance: It's not opinion that test labs across the nation have developed their own tests to identify positive samples for the coronavirus. In fact, several article I've posted as well as others has pointed that out. Is it true that some labs take years to develop FDA "approved" test? Sure, but there is a waiver in times of dire circumstances that can be done to speed of the process. Dr Chu (a lab scientist in Washington that ID'd "patient zero" in the US) applied for such waiver and never heard back. In fact, they shut her lab down. Again, that is pointed out in the articles. Would you deem this a "dire" circumstance?

We don't need a "magic wand". You're telling me small countries like Taiwan and Vietnam with FAR less resources can get testing done, ID the infected, contain them, and mitigate the spread...but the United States will need several years to do this because it takes years to get certified? Your remark is absolutely bonkers.

That is my whole point. Smaller nations, with far less resources, are getting ahead of the threat this virus represents, but the United States can't? Our federal goverment has pretty much been nonexistent in all of this outside of trying to enact monetary policy...which if their goal was to prop up the markets, it's failed. Oh, and there's that travel ban...which is too late considering outbreaks in different states is being reported daily. It's already here.

Again, it's not Trump's fault the virus is at our shores. It is his fault he's not doing more...in fact, he has the power to go to the CDC and FDA and tell them that if there are test out there that can ID positive virus samples, fast track it so we can aggressively get that done. Especially since the CDC can't seem to get out of their own way. That still has not happened. Let's go further...did you know that these tests can be made by individual labs, and how to do it is readily available? Probably not since you didn't read any of the articles that were posted. BTW, that's how Dr Chu developed the test to identify the US's "patient zero".

When someone responds to you, your first reaction is to accuse them of not having read what you posted. Might it be that someone has an honest disagreement with you? It’s really not a good look. Everything you just said actually backs up what I’m trying to get across to you. The smaller countries are a lot more nimble and don’t have nearly the myriad of regulations that we do – especially around healthcare. These regulations were put in place with good intentions – we don’t want medical devices and drugs and treatments entering the country that haven’t been super thoroughly tested and certified. Other countries don’t do that. I have a daughter with type one diabetes. Europe has had an advanced insulin pump control mechanism in place for several years. Our FDA has still not approved that. SEVERAL YEARS. Despite all of the data from patients having used it for several years with tremendous positive benefits. If you and I were the president and vice president right now, and knew that we needed to slash the regulations to allow for testing to be ramped up, we could not easily do that. We could scream, wave our arms and make demands, but it’s not that simple. Companies are not going to jump in and just take someone’s word that they won’t have liability. And never mind the regulation changes, Congress still hasn’t even passed the emergency funding bill that they’ve been talking about for over a month.

 

[Techster]

When someone responds to you, your first reaction is to accuse them of not having read what you posted. Might it be that someone has an honest disagreement with you? It’s really not a good look. Everything you just said actually backs up what I’m trying to get across to you. The smaller countries are a lot more nimble and don’t have nearly the myriad of regulations that we do – especially around healthcare. These regulations were put in place with good intentions – we don’t want medical devices and drugs and treatments entering the country that haven’t been super thoroughly tested and certified. Other countries don’t do that. I have a daughter with type one diabetes. Europe has had an advanced insulin pump control mechanism in place for several years. Our FDA has still not approved that. SEVERAL YEARS. If you were I were the president and vice president right now, and knew that we needed to slash the regulations to allow for testing to be ramped up, we could not easily do that. We could scream, wave our arms and make demands, but it’s not that simple. Companies are not going to jump in and just take someone’s word that they won’t have liability.

SMH...you still don't get it. That bolded part was addressed, but it appears you didn't read it. That's fine. Have a good day.

 

[RonJohn]

And our FDA processes are a mess. It takes years to get certified as a testing and production facility.

The process works well for protecting the public from ineffective or dangerous medicines, procedures, etc. The process doesn't work well for fast, off the cuff reactions. There are also more systematic reasons that the medical system in the U.S. isn't quick. The tort system is extremely messed up here. I almost guarantee that if a company quickly began conducting tests, there would eventually be a class action lawsuit. (The test missed someone positive, the test had too many false positives, the testing procedure caused an itch that didn't disappear for two months, ....) Liability insurance companies would probably not want to cover claims against hurried testing methods. There would need to be legal indemnity for companies to be able to work that quickly. There would also need to be some level of vetting of entities who test or develop tests to ensure that they know what they are doing.

During a crisis or issue is not the time to argue about who is to blame for causing or not preventing the issue. I have seen it plenty of times in projects at work. Things aren't working and too many people take up too much time and attention to blame others or defend themselves while whatever issue there is continues to remain an issue. In many cases after the issue is resolved, people forget about the issue completely. There is always time after an issue is resolved to determine what caused the issue and put steps into place to minimize the same issue happening again. It takes gravitas to concentrate on solving the issue instead of assigning blame. It then takes diligence to remember to address underlying issues after the issue is resolved.

In this case, at this point we should be asking if shutdowns are an overreaction. Is two weeks long enough, or will it just allow people to infect family members who then are still within the two-week period when shutdowns are ended and they are back in public? Do people really need 20 bundles of toilet paper and 15 loaves of bread that will go bad before they can possibly eat it? Concentrate on what we need to do now, not to blame the President, the CDC, the FDA, the Chinese, the US military, or anyone else.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

SMH...you still don't get it. That bolded part was addressed, but it appears you didn't read it. That's fine. Have a good day.

There you go again LOL. Relax. It’s okay to have people disagree with you. It doesn’t mean they aren’t listening. It doesn’t mean they think you’re not smart.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

Why is it that you never read anything before you respond. I'm not trying to attack you, but this is a repeated pattern from you.

For instance: It's not opinion that test labs across the nation have developed their own tests to identify positive samples for the coronavirus. In fact, several article I've posted as well as others has pointed that out. Is it true that some labs take years to develop FDA "approved" test? Sure, but there is a waiver in times of dire circumstances that can be done to speed of the process. Dr Chu (a lab scientist in Washington that ID'd "patient zero" in the US) applied for such waiver and never heard back. In fact, they shut her lab down. Again, that is pointed out in the articles. Would you deem this a "dire" circumstance?

We don't need a "magic wand". You're telling me small countries like Taiwan and Vietnam with FAR less resources can get testing done, ID the infected, contain them, and mitigate the spread...but the United States will need several years to do this because it takes years to get certified? Your remark is absolutely bonkers.

That is my whole point. Smaller nations, with far less resources, are getting ahead of the threat this virus represents, but the United States can't? Our federal goverment has pretty much been nonexistent in all of this outside of trying to enact monetary policy...which if their goal was to prop up the markets, it's failed. Oh, and there's that travel ban...which is too late considering outbreaks in different states is being reported daily. It's already here.

Again, it's not Trump's fault the virus is at our shores. It is his fault he's not doing more...in fact, he has the power to go to the CDC and FDA and tell them that if there are test out there that can ID positive virus samples, fast track it so we can aggressively get that done. Especially since the CDC can't seem to get out of their own way. That still has not happened. Let's go further...did you know that these tests can be made by individual labs, and how to do it is readily available? Probably not since you didn't read any of the articles that were posted. BTW, that's how Dr Chu developed the test to identify the US's "patient zero".

BTW, what the Fed has been doing wasn’t designed or intentioned to prop up the stock market.

 

[Techster]

For those that point to the "low" death rate as the reason the virus is just all hype:



It's just not the ultimate results of what can happen to the infected (death), but the ancillary results of all of this. I hope we won't have to find out, but given our woefully inadequate response has been since Day1, I don't have much optimism.

 

[armeck]

For those that point to the "low" death rate as the reason the virus is just all hype:



It's just not the ultimate results of what can happen to the infected (death), but the ancillary results of all of this. I hope we won't have to find out, but given our woefully inadequate response has been since Day1, I don't have much optimism.

This is the scenario that people should be concerned with. When things get dismissed with a "oh, the flu is worse, this is all just media panic" I know they really don't fully grasp the holistic issues at hand. Plan for the worst, hope for the best.

 

[Techster]

Morbid irony humor alert:

 

[Deleted member 2897]

This is the scenario that people should be concerned with. When things get dismissed with a "oh, the flu is worse, this is all just media panic" I know they really don't fully grasp the holistic issues at hand. Plan for the worst, hope for the best.

I have forgotten the number, and I could be wrong with my recollection of it here, but that is the same thing that has concerned me for a while – it was somewhere around 5% of people who get the virus develop serious complications that requires hospitalization. The flu is still very active where I am. And I think I read that we only have about 50,000 respirators in the entire country combined... Many of which are constantly used for other health issues obviously.

 

[Milwaukee]

For those that point to the "low" death rate as the reason the virus is just all hype:



It's just not the ultimate results of what can happen to the infected (death), but the ancillary results of all of this. I hope we won't have to find out, but given our woefully inadequate response has been since Day1, I don't have much optimism.

It’s going to get A LOT worse here but it’s not because of our President as you keep insinuating. But if you’re not ready for what’s coming then you need to buckle up. Hundreds of thousands of Americans will he diagnosed in the coming weeks, if not millions. It’s a cold weather virus, it will pass. But you and others will act like the sky is falling unfortunately.

 

[JacketRacket]

It’s going to get A LOT worse here but it’s not because of our President as you keep insinuating. But if you’re not ready for what’s coming then you need to buckle up. Hundreds of thousands of Americans will he diagnosed in the coming weeks, if not millions. It’s a cold weather virus, it will pass. But you and others will act like the sky is falling unfortunately.

No, there won't be that many Americans diagnosed with it. We literally don't have enough test kits to diagnose that many people or test that many times. That's part of the issue right now. We have no real way to monitor impact and exposure, yet. Only 75k test kits are available and only at 73 sites (as of Monday).

Sure, life will move on and if you're not part of an at risk population, you'll statistically be okay. But take it seriously, we need to limit the spread wherever we can so that the at risk populations can have a better chance.

 

[Milwaukee]

Sure, life will move on and if you're not part of an at risk population, you'll statistically be okay. But take it seriously, we need to limit the spread wherever we can so that the at risk populations can have a better chance.

Absolutely. As with any cold weather virus, be vigilant and responsible with people at risk.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

It’s going to get A LOT worse here but it’s not because of our President as you keep insinuating. But if you’re not ready for what’s coming then you need to buckle up. Hundreds of thousands of Americans will he diagnosed in the coming weeks, if not millions. It’s a cold weather virus, it will pass. But you and others will act like the sky is falling unfortunately.

I certainly hope that your prediction does not come through. But if you look across most other countries and scale that to our population, it certainly is in the range of possibilities. Our population equivalent positive tests compared to Italy would be 95,000. Equivalent to Norway would be 45,000. Iceland 70,000. South Korea 55,000. Switzerland 35,000. France 15,000. I would think we would end up somewhere similar to everyone else, which would imply with our population somewhere between 15,000 and 100,000.

 

[Milwaukee]

Millennials are calling Coronavirus the “Boomer Remover”. Lmao gotta have a sense of humor in these times.

 

[bobongo]

This is the scenario that people should be concerned with. When things get dismissed with a "oh, the flu is worse, this is all just media panic" I know they really don't fully grasp the holistic issues at hand. Plan for the worst, hope for the best.

One difference from the flu is that a person can be infected with this virus a good bit longer than the flu and be contagious longer before he/she has symptoms, or may hardly show symptoms at all. That's why it is spread more rapidly than the flu, unless there are steps taken to limit social interaction.