Coronavirus Thread

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Supersizethatorder-mutt

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The Israeli Pharmaceutical Company Teva has made an incredible donation to the US’ efforts to fight the coronavirus in the form of 6 million doses of chloroquine. Teva is immediately donating 6 Million hydroxychloroquine sulfate tablets to US hospitals by March 31, with over 10 Million within a month to meet the urgent demand for the medicine as an investigational target to treat
 

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Browsing through: https://www.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

Yesterday's numbers aren't in there yet - only goes through 3/22. But on that day, pretty much every country in Europe had their single worst day yet.

However, South Korea had an amazingly good day then. Lets hope it continues. They were starting to show the signs of a second new wave of infections. If 1 country can get to a manageable equilibrium, it gives everyone else a blueprint.
 
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Supersizethatorder-mutt said:
The Israeli Pharmaceutical Company Teva has made an incredible donation to the US’ efforts to fight the coronavirus in the form of 6 million doses of chloroquine. Teva is immediately donating 6 Million hydroxychloroquine sulfate tablets to US hospitals by March 31, with over 10 Million within a month to meet the urgent demand for the medicine as an investigational target to treat
Click to expand...

A man in Phoenix died after self medicating with chloroquine (in a tablet used to clean fish tanks):
https://nypost.com/2020/03/23/man-d...h-chloroquine-phosphate-to-treat-coronavirus/

The study that is being touted as evidence that chloroquine is effective had 26 participants who took the medicine. One of those participants died, resulting in a mortality rate of 3.8%. The denominator in that study is known as 26, so the mortality rate can be calculated definitively. The question can be asked if the person who died was so close to dying that the chloroquine could not have made a difference. However, the question can also be asked if those who recovered were close to recovering and would have recovered even without the chloroquine.

One case of annecdotal evidence is very little to use for doctors to prescribe a medicine. It is far too low for people to try to self medicate without knowing additional ingredients, side effects, and drug interactions.
 

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RonJohn said:
A man in Phoenix died after self medicating with chloroquine (in a tablet used to clean fish tanks):
https://nypost.com/2020/03/23/man-d...h-chloroquine-phosphate-to-treat-coronavirus/

The study that is being touted as evidence that chloroquine is effective had 26 participants who took the medicine. One of those participants died, resulting in a mortality rate of 3.8%. The denominator in that study is known as 26, so the mortality rate can be calculated definitively. The question can be asked if the person who died was so close to dying that the chloroquine could not have made a difference. However, the question can also be asked if those who recovered were close to recovering and would have recovered even without the chloroquine.

One case of annecdotal evidence is very little to use for doctors to prescribe a medicine. It is far too low for people to try to self medicate without knowing additional ingredients, side effects, and drug interactions.
Click to expand...

Darwin's theory at work?
 

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RonJohn said:
A man in Phoenix died after self medicating with chloroquine (in a tablet used to clean fish tanks):
https://nypost.com/2020/03/23/man-d...h-chloroquine-phosphate-to-treat-coronavirus/

The study that is being touted as evidence that chloroquine is effective had 26 participants who took the medicine. One of those participants died, resulting in a mortality rate of 3.8%. The denominator in that study is known as 26, so the mortality rate can be calculated definitively. The question can be asked if the person who died was so close to dying that the chloroquine could not have made a difference. However, the question can also be asked if those who recovered were close to recovering and would have recovered even without the chloroquine.

One case of annecdotal evidence is very little to use for doctors to prescribe a medicine. It is far too low for people to try to self medicate without knowing additional ingredients, side effects, and drug interactions.
Click to expand...

That is why they are doing trials. There is strong anecdotal evidence, but those datapoints were not done in a way to definitively determine the safety and efficacy of the medicine. (In other words, does it work, how well does it work, and is it safe.)

One part the rest of the world has done very well that our FDA has sucked about is weighing the balance appropriately between being 100% precise and wasting time. For example, these drugs have been on the market a long time and the side effects are known well. If you target people that are in very serious condition in the first place, what have you got to lose? Nobody is advocating prescribing this across the country to everyone yet. What the aggressive folks are saying is lets be responsibly aggressive - target those in most need with nothing to lose and do it in a way so that when we're done with this next phase it meets all the protocols for the FDAs requirements to approve for a larger use of it.

Traditionally, the FDA has stood there stoically with its arms crossed saying No. No bending or changing of any rules until they 100% know everything about a drug. That's why even the most world renowned epidemiologists in the world still have a lane they need to stay in.
 

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bwelbo said:
That is why they are doing trials. There is strong anecdotal evidence, but those datapoints were not done in a way to definitively determine the safety and efficacy of the medicine. (In other words, does it work, how well does it work, and is it safe.)

One part the rest of the world has done very well that our FDA has sucked about is weighing the balance appropriately between being 100% precise and wasting time. For example, these drugs have been on the market a long time and the side effects are known well. If you target people that are in very serious condition in the first place, what have you got to lose? Nobody is advocating prescribing this across the country to everyone yet. What the aggressive folks are saying is lets be responsibly aggressive - target those in most need with nothing to lose and do it in a way so that when we're done with this next phase it meets all the protocols for the FDAs requirements to approve for a larger use of it.

Traditionally, the FDA has stood there stoically with its arms crossed saying No. No bending or changing of any rules until they 100% know everything about a drug. That's why even the most world renowned epidemiologists in the world still have a lane they need to stay in.
Click to expand...
The answer, of course, as relayed by a real paramedic while a health professional stood by aghast, is to fire up a blow dryer and stick it up your nose.

All that aside I think your post makes sense given the times we live, and die, in.
 
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RonJohn said:
A man in Phoenix died after self medicating with chloroquine (in a tablet used to clean fish tanks):
https://nypost.com/2020/03/23/man-d...h-chloroquine-phosphate-to-treat-coronavirus/

The study that is being touted as evidence that chloroquine is effective had 26 participants who took the medicine. One of those participants died, resulting in a mortality rate of 3.8%. The denominator in that study is known as 26, so the mortality rate can be calculated definitively. The question can be asked if the person who died was so close to dying that the chloroquine could not have made a difference. However, the question can also be asked if those who recovered were close to recovering and would have recovered even without the chloroquine.

One case of annecdotal evidence is very little to use for doctors to prescribe a medicine. It is far too low for people to try to self medicate without knowing additional ingredients, side effects, and drug interactions.
Click to expand...

I'm seeing people on Facebook tout chloroquine as a "savior" without actually reading what's said about it. People grasp on to what they want to...and that's certainly reflected in life overall. Dr. Fauci is on record warning people that there are still reservations, and he's trying to push back:

https://news.yahoo.com/fauci-temper...hloroquine-use-for-coronavirus-181035811.html

One day after Trump said chloroquine had shown “very encouraging early results” treating COVID-19 and would be rolled out to patients “almost immediately,” Dr. Anthony Fauci was asked at a briefing in Washington whether there was any evidence to suggest that taking the drug would help prevent a person from coming down with COVID-19.

“The answer is no. And the evidence that you’re talking about, John [Roberts, Fox News correspondent], is anecdotal evidence, so as the commissioner of FDA and the president mentioned yesterday, we’re trying to strike a balance between making something with a potential of an effect to the American people available, at the same time we do it under the auspices of a protocol that would give us information to determine if it’s truly safe and truly effective,” Fauci said. “But the information that you’re referring to specifically is anecdotal; it was not done in a controlled clinical trial, so you really can’t make any definitive statement about it.”

...Trump was then asked by Roberts whether chloroquine had been shown to be effective against SARS during the 2002-03 outbreak of that virus.

“It was very, as I understand that,” Trump said before turning to Fauci. “Is that a correct statement? It was fairly effective against SARS.”

Fauci then stepped to the podium to throw cold water on that characterization.

“You’ve got to be careful when you say ‘fairly effective.’ It was never done in a clinical trial that compared it to anything. It was given to individuals and felt that maybe it works,” Fauci said.
 
Supersizethatorder-mutt

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RonJohn said:
A man in Phoenix died after self medicating with chloroquine (in a tablet used to clean fish tanks):
https://nypost.com/2020/03/23/man-d...h-chloroquine-phosphate-to-treat-coronavirus/

The study that is being touted as evidence that chloroquine is effective had 26 participants who took the medicine. One of those participants died, resulting in a mortality rate of 3.8%. The denominator in that study is known as 26, so the mortality rate can be calculated definitively. The question can be asked if the person who died was so close to dying that the chloroquine could not have made a difference. However, the question can also be asked if those who recovered were close to recovering and would have recovered even without the chloroquine.

One case of annecdotal evidence is very little to use for doctors to prescribe a medicine. It is far too low for people to try to self medicate without knowing additional ingredients, side effects, and drug interactions.
Click to expand...
One case of anecdotal evidence is very little to use for doctors not to consider a given medication. But what happened in this case was not a doctor's mistake, but the stupidity of a man and his wife. I feel sorry for them, but the blame is at their feet.
 
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