Coronavirus Thread

  • Thread starter Deleted member 2897
  • Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.

WreckinGT

Helluva Engineer
Messages
3,196
If we hadn't kept things shut down that have zero impact on spreading the virus longer than we should have, then more people might be more receptive to good measures like wearing masks.

People were too entrenched that nothing was safe in April. I saw a video of a police officer giving a ticket to a person for eating in his car in a parking lot because he was violating social distancing regulations.(It was in Canada, not the US) I predicted a long time ago that people were going to push back too hard against such regulations that were pushing too hard. I think people should be wearing masks in public. It is an easy thing to do.

Your description of people opposed to masks as being crybabies doesn't work to convince them that they should. It does the exact opposite and gets them more entrenched to fight against you. Reason works a lot better than derision. Unfortunately there are very few reasonable people having public discussions. Talking heads on so-called news networks across the spectrum would rather talk about what idiots people who don't agree with them are.
Our shut down was a joke for the most part. You could only go to Target, Walmart, the Grocery Store, Home Depot, the Liquor Store, any pharmacy, etc. you also were forced into the horrible experience of picking up your food curbside instead of sitting inside at your favorite restaurant. We couldn’t even do that for very long before people lost their minds. Compare that to countries that had actual shutdowns that lasted twice as long and are still going through phases of reopening.

And I’m sorry, but being super duper nice about asking people to wear masks isn’t bringing these people around. They are too far gone.
 

RonJohn

Helluva Engineer
Messages
5,048
Our shut down was a joke for the most part. You could only go to Target, Walmart, the Grocery Store, Home Depot, the Liquor Store, any pharmacy, etc. you also were forced into the horrible experience of picking up your food curbside instead of sitting inside at your favorite restaurant. We couldn’t even do that for very long before people lost their minds. Compare that to countries that had actual shutdowns that lasted twice as long and are still going through phases of reopening.

What would your shutdown recommendation have been? Not allow people to go to a pharmacy? Not allow people to go to a grocery store? Not allow policemen and firemen to work? Not allow food factory workers to work? If we had an actual real shutdown everything and did those things for any period of time, more people would have died than are now projected to die from COVID-19. Especially in urban areas, people are dependent upon food factories and grocery stores. I could potentially get some limited vegetables from our plants, catch some fish, and kill some squirrels or something to get food. People who live in Midtown Atlanta could not. (I couldn't have gotten vegetables from plants in March/April)

Were there some things that should have been shut down that were not? Maybe. But there were definitely things that were shut down that had zero impact on spreading the virus. Stopping hard was probably the right thing to do. Immediately after the stop, we should have been looking to details of things that could have little to no impact on spreading the virus, but one political side was screaming that "opening up" was bad, even if "opening up" only meant allowing a person to fish by themselves.

People now declare "freedom" when not wanting to wear a mask. A person is free to swing their arms violently as they walk down the street. But as soon as they are within a couple of feed of another person, they are not because their "freedom" doesn't include striking another person. People have "freedom" not to wear masks as long as they are at home, in their car, or isolated from other people. That "freedom" does not extend to putting droplets in the air that other people breathe that potentially contains virus. Unless you have immunity, your droplets could have the virus whether you feel sick at the moment or not.
 

WreckinGT

Helluva Engineer
Messages
3,196
What would your shutdown recommendation have been? Not allow people to go to a pharmacy? Not allow people to go to a grocery store? Not allow policemen and firemen to work? Not allow food factory workers to work? If we had an actual real shutdown everything and did those things for any period of time, more people would have died than are now projected to die from COVID-19. Especially in urban areas, people are dependent upon food factories and grocery stores. I could potentially get some limited vegetables from our plants, catch some fish, and kill some squirrels or something to get food. People who live in Midtown Atlanta could not. (I couldn't have gotten vegetables from plants in March/April)

Were there some things that should have been shut down that were not? Maybe. But there were definitely things that were shut down that had zero impact on spreading the virus. Stopping hard was probably the right thing to do. Immediately after the stop, we should have been looking to details of things that could have little to no impact on spreading the virus, but one political side was screaming that "opening up" was bad, even if "opening up" only meant allowing a person to fish by themselves.

People now declare "freedom" when not wanting to wear a mask. A person is free to swing their arms violently as they walk down the street. But as soon as they are within a couple of feed of another person, they are not because their "freedom" doesn't include striking another person. People have "freedom" not to wear masks as long as they are at home, in their car, or isolated from other people. That "freedom" does not extend to putting droplets in the air that other people breathe that potentially contains virus. Unless you have immunity, your droplets could have the virus whether you feel sick at the moment or not.
I was never against anything that can easily be done with social distancing like fishing, hiking, or even golf. There were plenty of shutdown procedures instituted in other countries that we could have adopted as well though. You can shutdown and still allow limited access to essentials, and make getting those essentials as safe as possible. My local liquor store and grocery store were packed nearly every day during our shutdown. Packed with plenty of people not wearing masks. Traffic was honestly not much different than normal. Just read about other countries and how they approached this. Our approach was pretty obviously less serious, and it seems now we have given up completely. We are ready to open major theme parks while numbers are setting records. We probably never should have shut down if that was the best effort we were going to give.
 

Techster

Helluva Engineer
Messages
18,390
Arizona now redlining on ICU capacity after Texas reported it yesterday. Close to hitting the 50K+ infections per day mark.

 

slugboy

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
11,725
Friend pointed me to this research link: https://www.covid19.uga.edu/stochastic-GA.html.

(Sorry, it’s from UGA’s school of Ecology and Epidemiology. I don’t have something similar from Emory).

b81bde3c107ae4fbca32e091ea695e28.jpg



2d3540cbbe13b80db938cfb2f4393a06.jpg


The projections are short term—just to August (about the time that schools start back). The model is available at GitHub if you want to run it yourself and tweak it.

I don’t think we’re “going back to normal” over the summer—I’ve seen some of that, but there’s at least some caution from people.

I’m leaning into the “all models are wrong, but some are informative” mindset.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

MWBATL

Helluva Engineer
Messages
6,589
Really, he said Ron DeSantis's managing of Corona in FL was the model for the nation. Yes, your hero Clay Travis:

True, I am being a drama queen, but at least I'm not willfully ignorant of what all the data means. But keep referencing your hero Clay Travis.

Yeah, it is a horrible thing to praise a state whose death rate is still one of the lowest in the country. My god, how ignorant can one be?

Yet you keeping quoting and linking news sources who have consistently been over-reacting to the problems we face....on every topic. Talk about needing to look in a mirror.....sheesh!
 

Techster

Helluva Engineer
Messages
18,390
Yeah, it is a horrible thing to praise a state whose death rate is still one of the lowest in the country. My god, how ignorant can one be?

Yet you keeping quoting and linking news sources who have consistently been over-reacting to the problems we face....on every topic. Talk about needing to look in a mirror.....sheesh!

DeSantis has reclassified the criteria for both hospitalizations and deaths, or flat out hiding them...and he did it to obfuscate the real numbers because the real numbers would be referendum on how poorly he managed the virus:

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article242552796.html

https://www.tampabay.com/news/healt...onavirus-death-data-the-state-made-them-stop/

The articles detail the data discrepancy and flat out obfuscation DeSantis has been practicing with respect to the data. If you want to praise DeSantis for his handling of things, that's your perogative, but what he's doing is a good part of why people like you don't take this seriously. Instead of giving everyone the data and letting scientist and medical professionals make decisions on the best course to deal with this, DeSantis is trying to paint a false rosy picture for his ineptitude. Then we have people like you who think everything is all fine and dandy and make the problem worse.

I highly suggest you do some research before criticizing someone else. Of course, if you think praise for someone who hides data and obfuscates the truth is warranted, then that probably says something about you.
 

Deleted member 2897

Guest
DeSantis has reclassified the criteria for both hospitalizations and deaths, or flat out hiding them...and he did it to obfuscate the real numbers because the real numbers would be referendum on how poorly he managed the virus:

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article242552796.html

https://www.tampabay.com/news/healt...onavirus-death-data-the-state-made-them-stop/

The articles detail the data discrepancy and flat out obfuscation DeSantis has been practicing with respect to the data. If you want to praise DeSantis for his handling of things, that's your perogative, but what he's doing is a good part of why people like you don't take this seriously. Instead of giving everyone the data and letting scientist and medical professionals make decisions on the best course to deal with this, DeSantis is trying to paint a false rosy picture for his ineptitude. Then we have people like you who think everything is all fine and dandy and make the problem worse.

I highly suggest you do some research before criticizing someone else. Of course, if you think praise for someone who hides data and obfuscates the truth is warranted, then that probably says something about you.

I just read those 2 articles. 1 count says the discrepancy in deaths is 0.5% (one counted 1399 and other counted 1321) and the other says their discrepancy is 10%. One doesn't include non-Florida residents in their counts. There's also always a delay with death certificate filings. Either way its a problem, but those numbers to me don't materially change any argument. I don't see how you could change your mind to conclude someone did poorly or instead they did great over a data discrepancy of that magnitude. IIWII.
 

Techster

Helluva Engineer
Messages
18,390
I just read those 2 articles. 1 count says the discrepancy in deaths is 0.5% (one counted 1399 and other counted 1321) and the other says their discrepancy is 10%. One doesn't include non-Florida residents in their counts. There's also always a delay with death certificate filings. Either way its a problem, but those numbers to me don't materially change any argument. I don't see how you could conclude someone did poorly or great over a data discrepancy of that magnitude. IIWII.

The problem is that when you misrepresent data or try to hide data, it brings to question all the data. Reporters and researchers had to dig for that information...so now you question whether they found all the data or missed something. That also skews the numbers. No need for it unless you're trying to hide something.

Would you invest in a company if you found out they hid information? Would you trust the information they gave you after that?

I don't have time to do it, but it would be interesting to track total confirmed cases, and calculate the percentage of hospitalizations and deaths to confirmed cases. You would assume the percentages would cluster in a narrow band range. It would be interesting to see the outliers.
 

Deleted member 2897

Guest
The problem is that when you misrepresent data or try to hide data, it brings to question all the data. Reporters and researchers had to dig for that information...so now you question whether they found all the data or missed something. That also skews the numbers. No need for it unless you're trying to hide something.

Would you invest in a company if you found out they hid information? Would you trust the information they gave you after that?

I don't have time to do it, but it would be interesting to track total confirmed cases, and calculate the percentage of hospitalizations and deaths to confirmed cases. You would assume the percentages would cluster in a narrow band range. It would be interesting to see the outliers.

Yea, I totally get it. But to me personally, I don’t understand how they can publish this information anyway. I would not want all of the detailed death/health records of family members available publicly. Who knows what sorts of health insurance, life insurance, company death payouts, litigation, and everything else could be affected by that. All of the data should be reported, but blacked out any personal identifying information.
 

Techster

Helluva Engineer
Messages
18,390
Yea, I totally get it. But to me personally, I don’t understand how they can publish this information anyway. I would not want all of the detailed death/health records of family members available publicly. Who knows what sorts of health insurance, life insurance, company death payouts, litigation, and everything else could be affected by that. All of the data should be reported, but blacked out any personal identifying information.

I'm not sure why they can't publish data without personal information. I believe other states do it...but I'm not sure so feel free to correct me.

Researchers have had funding pulled because of hiding data. CEOs and managers of companies get fired for hiding information. The worker's comp and general liability policies I have for my companies would be voided and I would go to jail for hiding data. YOU would go to jail for hiding information on insurance claims.

That fact that the governor of a state is literally hiding data for a life and death situation is absolutely unconscionable.
 

Deleted member 2897

Guest
I'm not sure why they can't publish data without personal information. I believe other states do it...but I'm not sure so feel free to correct me.

I don't know - in the article it said they used to include people's names and other personal identifying information. It also mentioned county attorneys in some places had dictated they stop releasing that information. And at other points in the articles it mentions privacy issues as well.
 

RonJohn

Helluva Engineer
Messages
5,048
I was never against anything that can easily be done with social distancing like fishing, hiking, or even golf. There were plenty of shutdown procedures instituted in other countries that we could have adopted as well though. You can shutdown and still allow limited access to essentials, and make getting those essentials as safe as possible. My local liquor store and grocery store were packed nearly every day during our shutdown. Packed with plenty of people not wearing masks. Traffic was honestly not much different than normal. Just read about other countries and how they approached this. Our approach was pretty obviously less serious, and it seems now we have given up completely. We are ready to open major theme parks while numbers are setting records. We probably never should have shut down if that was the best effort we were going to give.

I didn't visit a liquor store, but the local grocery stores were limiting occupancy.

I have been working from home mostly since mid-March, but I have gone to my office some. In early May, after "re-opening" in Georgia, I drove on I-20 and entered the connector during what would have been rush hour three days in a row. There was no slowdown on I-20 into the city. There was no slowdown on the ramp to the connector. There was no slowdown on the connector. Pre-shutdown all of those areas would have had slow downs, and the ramp to the connector would have been stop and go. Where did you drive in late March and April that the traffic congestion was "not much different than normal"?

I went to Universal Studios a week and a half ago, so I have attended a major theme park already. They conducted daily temperature checks. They required masks to be worn, even though the temperature was in the high 80s lower 90s with high humidity. That wasn't exactly comfortable, but it was tolerable. It is now 11 days since I left Universal and I don't have any symptoms yet.

As I stated before, immediately after the shutdown officials should have looked for things that could have been relaxed without spreading the virus. Instead things were added, such as Michigan prohibiting a person from driving to a second home even to check for basement flooding after rain. Officials and businesses should have been looking at ways to operate more businesses with precautions. Instead we got extremes of: Nothing at all can reopen under any circumstances whatsoever to I have the "freedom" to go into a privately owned business without a mask even if the owner makes it a requirement to enter their property. There were many things that could have been reasonable relaxed, but I guess discussing such things reasonably is too difficult for people who either say "no" to everything or "you can't stop me" to everything.

I think the big problem now is that people have completely stopped listening. Political leaders in both parties have been polarizing. The media has been exploitative and polarizing. When all of the public discussion is basically people taking extreme positions and yelling at each other, why should people listen?
 

Deleted member 2897

Guest
I didn't visit a liquor store, but the local grocery stores were limiting occupancy.

I have been working from home mostly since mid-March, but I have gone to my office some. In early May, after "re-opening" in Georgia, I drove on I-20 and entered the connector during what would have been rush hour three days in a row. There was no slowdown on I-20 into the city. There was no slowdown on the ramp to the connector. There was no slowdown on the connector. Pre-shutdown all of those areas would have had slow downs, and the ramp to the connector would have been stop and go. Where did you drive in late March and April that the traffic congestion was "not much different than normal"?

I went to Universal Studios a week and a half ago, so I have attended a major theme park already. They conducted daily temperature checks. They required masks to be worn, even though the temperature was in the high 80s lower 90s with high humidity. That wasn't exactly comfortable, but it was tolerable. It is now 11 days since I left Universal and I don't have any symptoms yet.

As I stated before, immediately after the shutdown officials should have looked for things that could have been relaxed without spreading the virus. Instead things were added, such as Michigan prohibiting a person from driving to a second home even to check for basement flooding after rain. Officials and businesses should have been looking at ways to operate more businesses with precautions. Instead we got extremes of: Nothing at all can reopen under any circumstances whatsoever to I have the "freedom" to go into a privately owned business without a mask even if the owner makes it a requirement to enter their property. There were many things that could have been reasonable relaxed, but I guess discussing such things reasonably is too difficult for people who either say "no" to everything or "you can't stop me" to everything.

I think the big problem now is that people have completely stopped listening. Political leaders in both parties have been polarizing. The media has been exploitative and polarizing. When all of the public discussion is basically people taking extreme positions and yelling at each other, why should people listen?

Here is a county ordinance requiring face masks be worn. Scroll down to the last page and look at some of the bulletpoints that are exceptions. People of color currently account for a disproportionate number of cases, a disproportionate number of hospitalizations, and disproportionate number of deaths. Why on earth do we keep taking anti-science positions on these things, which will only serve to exacerbate the health issues? When the CDC says we don't need to wear masks, and when local governments make assertions and directives that are anti-science, what is the average person to think? You can't help but think these people don't actually care about what's real or not, its more of a crusade than anything else.
https://www.co.lincoln.or.us/sites/...an_services/page/7581/directive_6-16-2020.pdf
 

Techster

Helluva Engineer
Messages
18,390
Another shutdown would be untenable...and probably suicide for our economy. We just need people to be smart and do the things that minimize infection risk:

 

WreckinGT

Helluva Engineer
Messages
3,196
I didn't visit a liquor store, but the local grocery stores were limiting occupancy.

I have been working from home mostly since mid-March, but I have gone to my office some. In early May, after "re-opening" in Georgia, I drove on I-20 and entered the connector during what would have been rush hour three days in a row. There was no slowdown on I-20 into the city. There was no slowdown on the ramp to the connector. There was no slowdown on the connector. Pre-shutdown all of those areas would have had slow downs, and the ramp to the connector would have been stop and go. Where did you drive in late March and April that the traffic congestion was "not much different than normal"?

I went to Universal Studios a week and a half ago, so I have attended a major theme park already. They conducted daily temperature checks. They required masks to be worn, even though the temperature was in the high 80s lower 90s with high humidity. That wasn't exactly comfortable, but it was tolerable. It is now 11 days since I left Universal and I don't have any symptoms yet.

As I stated before, immediately after the shutdown officials should have looked for things that could have been relaxed without spreading the virus. Instead things were added, such as Michigan prohibiting a person from driving to a second home even to check for basement flooding after rain. Officials and businesses should have been looking at ways to operate more businesses with precautions. Instead we got extremes of: Nothing at all can reopen under any circumstances whatsoever to I have the "freedom" to go into a privately owned business without a mask even if the owner makes it a requirement to enter their property. There were many things that could have been reasonable relaxed, but I guess discussing such things reasonably is too difficult for people who either say "no" to everything or "you can't stop me" to everything.

I think the big problem now is that people have completely stopped listening. Political leaders in both parties have been polarizing. The media has been exploitative and polarizing. When all of the public discussion is basically people taking extreme positions and yelling at each other, why should people listen?
Local grocery stores here (Marietta, East Cobb) were absolutely not limiting occupancy. They did draw some arrows on the floor though that some people paid attention to and some didn't. With traffic, I was talking about local traffic. I haven't been on a highway since February. I am genuinely happy that you didn't get the virus from a very ill advised trip to Universal Studios, but surely you have noticed that Florida is setting records in cases right now because others who did similar things weren't as lucky as you, right?

I am with you on the polarization argument. We have a serious problem in this country in that half of the country hates the other half and that manifests itself into everything including even public health. Im still not sure why people needed to take sides on this issue. Blaming politicians and the media is pointless though. The problem is with the people. We aren't victims. This is the way people want it to be.
 

RonJohn

Helluva Engineer
Messages
5,048
I am genuinely happy that you didn't get the virus from a very ill advised trip to Universal Studios, but surely you have noticed that Florida is setting records in cases right now because others who did similar things weren't as lucky as you, right?

At Universal Studios they were enforcing masks. People for the most part were paying attention to the six feet markers in the queues. They did check the temperatures of everyone every day. I don't think it is zero risk. However, I think that if everyone in the country acted the way they force you to act in order to be at the park that infections in the country would go down.
 

WreckinGT

Helluva Engineer
Messages
3,196
A sad story for those who keep beating the young people are at little risk drum.

https://www.newswest9.com/amp/artic...arty/287-ea8960ea-4c3c-40c1-b75e-f4437fe6f836

A young person thought he had a slight cough that he got from working. He actually had Covid. He went to a birthday party for a family member that probably never should have happened. 7 family members at that party also got Covid and spread it to 10 more family members. One of the people who got it is fighting breast cancer and thankfully is recovering from Covid. Two others were elderly. Both are still being hospitalized and one is on life support. Yes, the young person is going to be fine. The rest of his family is not.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top