Coronavirus Thread

[RonJohn]

I don't know about that. I understand that Liberty had 1,200 students on campus during this "panic" and had no cases ...let's repeat that...ZERO cases... that were traceable to campus origins.

If your point is that it wasn't a "normal" campus environment, you are certainly correct. Labs were however open, but 2 out of every 3 pouter workstations were closed to maintain distancing. It remains an unknown as to how many covid cases would concur if a "normal" reopening were to occur. My guess is that we'll never know, because although I believe college campuses will indeed re-open this Fall, I do also believe there will be added safety measures taken...similar yo but not as extreme as those taken at Liberty.

Now, if we want to talk about the media reaction among "experts" about Liberty's re-opening, that is more appropriate for the political threads. All I'll say is...."panic" is a good descriptor.

My points were that: It wasn't "on-campus" classes even the students in dorms took the classes online, there were fewer students in the dorms than at UCLA and Texas A&M, There were fewer students in the dorms as a ratio to normal students in the dorms than at UCLA and Texas A&M, Liberty was operating basically the same as other universities.

There were other universities who were "open" similarly to what Liberty was.(students living in dorms, cafeterias open for take-out only, etc) There isn't a huge difference in what UCLA did and what Liberty did.

Liberty originally announced they were going to resume classes as normal after Spring break. They had pushback from students and parents and decided to do mostly online classes. There is a lot of confusion about what they said they were going to do, and then what they actually did in the media and in the public. There was criticism in the media about the original plan to completely resume, and that criticism didn't stop after they decided to not resume. If you have seen my posts in general, you will know that I am not a big fan of how news media covers most stories.

 

[MWBATL]

My points were that: It wasn't "on-campus" classes even the students in dorms took the classes online, there were fewer students in the dorms than at UCLA and Texas A&M, There were fewer students in the dorms as a ratio to normal students in the dorms than at UCLA and Texas A&M, Liberty was operating basically the same as other universities.

There were other universities who were "open" similarly to what Liberty was.(students living in dorms, cafeterias open for take-out only, etc) There isn't a huge difference in what UCLA did and what Liberty did.

Liberty originally announced they were going to resume classes as normal after Spring break. They had pushback from students and parents and decided to do mostly online classes. There is a lot of confusion about what they said they were going to do, and then what they actually did in the media and in the public. There was criticism in the media about the original plan to completely resume, and that criticism didn't stop after they decided to not resume. If you have seen my posts in general, you will know that I am not a big fan of how news media covers most stories.

I think I was trying to agree with you...apologies if I wasn't clear. Liberty was NOT running a "normal" campus environment. It can be a model for the Fall (I am unaware of what UCLA and Texas A&M did..sound like it was quite similar), The only "correction" I'd suggest to your explanation is that Liberty did not bow to negative feedback...3 days after they announced their re-opening plans, yer Governor of Virginina prohibited gatherings of more than 50 people, which effectively shut down Liberty's plans for on campus classes. Each of us can decide if that helped their situation (or not). I am guessing it did...

 

[MWBATL]

5. Or, in short, you are concerned about a speculative number - I haven't seen study one on this cited here - while I have a present disease and sound predictions about its future course to draw on.

By the way, this debate goes back a few days, but the the argument that "other" deaths are not occurring in large numbers is beginning to face the music of actually begin accounted for.....

https://www.wsj.com/articles/its-deadly-to-fear-the-emergency-room-11589927538?mod=opinion_lead_pos8

Just in NYC, almost 5,300 deaths in just over 7 weeks, according to this article. I have not vetted the numbers myself, but if accurate they provide a backdrop to the anecdotal stories we are hearing in large numbers about people avoiding our medical system because of the covid media panic.

 

[MWBATL]

One last comment and factoid.....for those who don't believe we can safeguard the most vulnerable amongst us safely....

Proportion of population over 65
Florida 20.5%
NY 16.4%

Deaths per 100,000 from covid
Florida 10 per 100,000
NY 147 per 100,000

Somehow, Florida has outperformed NY....by a LOT....during this pandemic.

 

[RonJohn]

I think I was trying to agree with you...apologies if I wasn't clear. Liberty was NOT running a "normal" campus environment. It can be a model for the Fall (I am unaware of what UCLA and Texas A&M did..sound like it was quite similar), The only "correction" I'd suggest to your explanation is that Liberty did not bow to negative feedback...3 days after they announced their re-opening plans, yer Governor of Virginina prohibited gatherings of more than 50 people, which effectively shut down Liberty's plans for on campus classes. Each of us can decide if that helped their situation (or not). I am guessing it did...

I haven't seen a number, but there were students still in dorms at GT. At GT, those students had to request some kind of exception to stay there. There is a notice on the GT website telling students that if they need to stay on campus during the Summer that they have to apply for another exception even if they were approved for Spring. I don't know what was considered when granting permission for a student to live on campus, but I would imagine there were some students who for a variety of reasons either couldn't travel home or couldn't get other housing. I would think that most universities were the same and that some accommodations had to be made for students in such positions.

I think most of the confusion about what universities in general and different universities specifically did is because of sloppy reporting. The reporting made is sound as if nobody was allowed to walk on campus. It is easier to report that a university is "shut down" than it is to describe what "shut down" means. Many people assume that "shut down" means not open for anything. The news media seems to be content with allowing their audience to misunderstand.

 

[GT_EE78]

Proving yet again that all lockdowns do is slow the spread, and that eventually this virus will make its way everywhere.

The Chinese Communist Party would like nothing better than keeping our economy locked down for ever.
Likely why they left Wuhan open for international travel while banning travel within the country.

 

[GT_EE78]

> This is encouraging. Hope it proves true
Breakthrough South Korean Study Finds Recovered COVID Patients Who Test Positive Aren't Infectious
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopoliti...overed-covid-patients-who-test-positive-arent

 

[Deleted member 2897]

One last comment and factoid.....for those who don't believe we can safeguard the most vulnerable amongst us safely....

Proportion of population over 65
Florida 20.5%
NY 16.4%

Deaths per 100,000 from covid
Florida 10 per 100,000
NY 147 per 100,000

Somehow, Florida has outperformed NY....by a LOT....during this pandemic.

Governor Cuomo had directed COVID patients to be sent to nursing homes. That's not hyperbole or a false assertion. Its true, and is shockingly disgusting really. I have no idea why he was doing that. He isn't doing it anymore, but the damage was done.

Some states like Florida focused like a laser on nursing and elder care homes and facilities early and quickly. Florida has even been mass transferring nursing home patients to hospitals if people start testing positive - like they send the entire nursing home to a hospital whether they have tested positive or not (so long as someone there tested positive), so every minute of early treatment can be accomplished to try and save time and lives. They also prioritized PPE, sanitation/hygiene, and blocked all visitors early and often. All of these things are common sense, but many states still haven't done that. I think the majority of deaths in the majority of states are from nursing homes, which represent a tiny slice of the population. Why more people haven't focused on that demographic when we know they are the most vulnerable is beyond me.

 

[Supersizethatorder-mutt]

They didn't resume on-campus classes. They had students in the dorms, but even those students were taking their classes online. Those students had to follow social distancing guidelines. Meals were not available to eat in the cafeterias, they had to be take-out. If you look at the chart posted in that article, the number of students on campus after/before Spring break is lower than the ratio of on campus resident students at UCLA and TA&M, so Liberty was more closed than UCLA.

Yes, since I made my post, I have become aware that Falwell Jr, in an interview I saw with him, was very misleading.

 

[GTRX7]

One last comment and factoid.....for those who don't believe we can safeguard the most vulnerable amongst us safely....

Proportion of population over 65
Florida 20.5%
NY 16.4%

Deaths per 100,000 from covid
Florida 10 per 100,000
NY 147 per 100,000

Somehow, Florida has outperformed NY....by a LOT....during this pandemic.

Florida has a population density of about 360 people per square mile. Greater New York City, which accounts for 67% of New York's deaths, has a population density of about 22,400 people per square mile. Manhattan, which accounts for the greatest portion, has a population density of about 67,000 people per square mile. Pretty sure that has something to do with the how well each "performed". It is not a coincidence that most of the places in the US with the highest numbers of deaths are in big cities, while the least densely populated states like Alaska, Montana, Wyoming, Utah, Idaho, etc. are at the very bottom in terms of death per 100,000.

Note that I am not saying that the correlation is exact, as population density does not insure that a breakout will occur in a particular area. But, when a breakout does occur, it is MUCH harder to control in areas with high population densities than low. Unsurprisingly, Miami-Dade county, the densest populated county in Florida with a population density around 1,400 people per square mile (still almost 15 times less dense than the greater NYC population), has a rate of deaths from COVID of over twice the rest of Florida at about 21 per 100,000.

 

[GT_EE78]

Quarantine Soccer
Goalie cat is the breakout star of quarantine soccer

 

[Deleted member 2897]

Quarantine Soccer
Goalie cat is the breakout star of quarantine soccer

CAT: “Don’t bring that weak **** in here!“

 

[IEEEWreck]

Florida has a population density of about 360 people per square mile. Greater New York City, which accounts for 67% of New York's deaths, has a population density of about 22,400 people per square mile. Manhattan, which accounts for the greatest portion, has a population density of about 67,000 people per square mile. Pretty sure that has something to do with the how well each "performed". It is not a coincidence that most of the places in the US with the highest numbers of deaths are in big cities, while the least densely populated states like Alaska, Montana, Wyoming, Utah, Idaho, etc. are at the very bottom in terms of death per 100,000.

Note that I am not saying that the correlation is exact, as population density does not insure that a breakout will occur in a particular area. But, when a breakout does occur, it is MUCH harder to control in areas with high population densities than low. Unsurprisingly, Miami-Dade county, the densest populated county in Florida with a population density around 1,400 people per square mile (still almost 15 times less dense than the greater NYC population), has a rate of deaths from COVID of over twice the rest of Florida at about 21 per 100,000.

It's also important to note that despite governor Jeanshorts refusal to act in a timely manner, Miami, Tampa, and Jacksonville all took extremely quick action to implement social distancing. That largely arrested the spread before it got to the nursing home belt and gave those communities time and space to take their own mitigation measures.

But don't kid yourself about nursing home mitigation, it's not a mystery and it's not pretty. We know what protection requires because we've dealt with infectious disease outbreaks before. You need isolation wards, lots of manpower, lots of PPE, lots of sanitization, and a ISYE's wet dream of fanatical devotion to procedure and human motion.

This is just engineering- we know the physics and the mathematics. The dark part is that we know that no one will actually implement effective protection in nursing homes because there's not enough people, money, or equipment.

Unfortunately we stopped listening to the engineers in this country and started listening to accountants and business majors sometime in the 80's. Listening to DeSantis speculate on handing janitors masks and gloves in nursing homes is eerily similar to how Boeing executives talked about building a 737 that's inherently unstable and hey software can probably make that ok, right?

No failure analysis, no quantification of risk, just "well I don't want to do what works so I'll just do what I want instead and it'll work out."

We better do all we can to stop CoVID from spreading to Orlando, Palm Beach, and Naples significantly, because if we don't there's gonna be a lot of dead retirees.


Also, re Liberty:

I am shocked, absolutely shocked that Jerry Falwell Jr is enriching himself at the expense of Liberty students and then lying about it. It's not like that's the school's model or anything.

 

[GTRX7]

It's also important to note that despite governor Jeanshorts refusal to act in a timely manner, Miami, Tampa, and Jacksonville all took extremely quick action to implement social distancing. That largely arrested the spread before it got to the nursing home belt and gave those communities time and space to take their own mitigation measures.

But don't kid yourself about nursing home mitigation, it's not a mystery and it's not pretty. We know what protection requires because we've dealt with infectious disease outbreaks before. You need isolation wards, lots of manpower, lots of PPE, lots of sanitization, and a ISYE's wet dream of fanatical devotion to procedure and human motion.

This is just engineering- we know the physics and the mathematics. The dark part is that we know that no one will actually implement effective protection in nursing homes because there's not enough people, money, or equipment.

Unfortunately we stopped listening to the engineers in this country and started listening to accountants and business majors sometime in the 80's. Listening to DeSantis speculate on handing janitors masks and gloves in nursing homes is eerily similar to how Boeing executives talked about building a 737 that's inherently unstable and hey software can probably make that ok, right?

No failure analysis, no quantification of risk, just "well I don't want to do what works so I'll just do what I want instead and it'll work out."

We better do all we can to stop CoVID from spreading to Orlando, Palm Beach, and Naples significantly, because if we don't there's gonna be a lot of dead retirees.


Also, re Liberty:

I am shocked, absolutely shocked that Jerry Falwell Jr is enriching himself at the expense of Liberty students and then lying about it. It's not like that's the school's model or anything.

I agree. Isolating old people can be done, but it aint easy like some suggest. It does take a lot of manpower by people who are not over 65 to operate, maintain, and care for nursing homes and their patients. Old people also have families that presumably would like to visit them. And those workers and family members have their own families, who have their own jobs and friends and activities, etc. Quickly, we see that contact and potential transmission from beyond just the old people we have "isolated" is expanding exponentially. Increasing mass gatherings for those under 65 necessarily and absolutely increases risk on those over 65 - period - even if people over 65 do not personally attend those gatherings. Now, is that increase an acceptable risk? That is a harder question. Certainly with the right precautions ( heightened sanitation, proper PPE, testing and tracking, everybody else wearing masks (not just old people!), increased social distancing etc.), we might be able to do an acceptable job. But those efforts do necessarily still involve some commitment on the part of the whole society unless we 100% isolate all employees, health care workers, family members, etc that also come into contact with older folks -- an unrealistic and impossible task.

 

[MountainBuzzMan]

I haven't seen a number, but there were students still in dorms at GT. At GT, those students had to request some kind of exception to stay there. There is a notice on the GT website telling students that if they need to stay on campus during the Summer that they have to apply for another exception even if they were approved for Spring. I don't know what was considered when granting permission for a student to live on campus, but I would imagine there were some students who for a variety of reasons either couldn't travel home or couldn't get other housing. I would think that most universities were the same and that some accommodations had to be made for students in such positions.

I think most of the confusion about what universities in general and different universities specifically did is because of sloppy reporting. The reporting made is sound as if nobody was allowed to walk on campus. It is easier to report that a university is "shut down" than it is to describe what "shut down" means. Many people assume that "shut down" means not open for anything. The news media seems to be content with allowing their audience to misunderstand.

From our condo in midtown we can see the University House student housing for Tech and they look to be half full now. I believe they are almost 100% Tech students as well.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

Also, re Liberty:

I am shocked, absolutely shocked that Jerry Falwell Jr is enriching himself at the expense of Liberty students and then lying about it. It's not like that's the school's model or anything.

Somehow, Liberty blew itself up from the inside and ceased to be the University it always was beginning a few years ago. Liberty hired Ian McCaw for athletics director who had resigned in disgraced from Baylor (remember all those scandals that occurred under him) not 6 months previous. Then they hired Hugh Freeze as head football coach - yes the same Hugh Freeze who oversaw nothing but continuous scandals while coaching at Ole Miss. Their culture to me is a sleezy wolf in sheep's clothing.

 

[BuzzStone]

Somehow, Liberty blew itself up from the inside and ceased to be the University it always was beginning a few years ago. Liberty hired Ian McCaw for athletics director who had resigned in disgraced from Baylor (remember all those scandals that occurred under him) not 6 months previous. Then they hired Hugh Freeze as head football coach - yes the same Hugh Freeze who oversaw nothing but continuous scandals while coaching at Ole Miss. Their culture to me is a sleezy wolf in sheep's clothing.

Any "university" that teaches young earth creationism is sleazy.

 

[Milwaukee]

Straight up Gangster

 

[Milwaukee]

 

[Deleted member 2897]

Any "university" that teaches young earth creationism is sleazy.

Have fun in the ignore bin. I remember when you took us down this massive vile anti-Christian death spiral a couple years ago. Not taking the bait.