Deleted member 2897
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Stay 5 miles away from cars. Yes, same thing.
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Stay 5 miles away from cars. Yes, same thing.
LibertyTurns
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One country is somewhat transparent about their operations and another is completely not. You obvious trust another country more than your own. That’s your prerogative, but does not make it correct. These facilities are dual purpose and if you’re trying to conceal your research you don’t go declaring it to the world with a big sign on the front of your building. I thought that would be obvious.
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I know a Geography PhD that works for the CDC. They hired him because he not only could do the stats but specializes in how to regionalize data.
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This may have been posted, but while I’m seeing a ton about hydrochloroquine and remdesivir and vaccine trials, masks look like the best bet still:
https://arxiv.org/pdf/2004.13553.pdf
Wired and Fox and other news outlets covered that paper, like in these stories: https://www.wired.com/story/its-time-to-face-facts-america-masks-work/
https://www.foxnews.com/science/coronavirus-infections-plunge-80-percent-wore-masks
If we can get 80% mask wearing, we’re in good shape. In metro Atlanta, it looks a lot closer to 50% right now. 80% drives the deaths down significantly; 50%, not as much.
The paper gets a little confusing because it gives stats for cases and for deaths, and it would be easier to compare the different projections if they were all the same measure—but that’s for my reading.
Here’s an article on the antivirals and other drugs: https://www.healthline.com/health-n...-at-with-vaccines-and-treatments-for-covid-19
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takethepoints
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In line with the more nerdy side of this thread, here's Henry:
https://crookedtimber.org/2020/05/12/public-choice/
I think this is spot on. One thing that has been systematically ignored - and that's what it is; everybody knows this - is the asymmetric power relationships that are forcing the workers who are already suffering the most from the virus back to work. The general public wants no part of it yet; they don't feel safe, for good reason. Go to the beach, yes; go back to a crowded office with a strong air conditioning system or an assembly line with no real social distancing, no. But many have no choice.
I've heard a lot of responses to this. I'll let the guys (in this case) at Crooked Timber reply to a set of them as well:
https://crookedtimber.org/2012/07/01/let-it-bleed-libertarianism-and-the-workplace/
Warning: this is a long post. Definitely worth reading, however.
https://crookedtimber.org/2020/05/12/public-choice/
I think this is spot on. One thing that has been systematically ignored - and that's what it is; everybody knows this - is the asymmetric power relationships that are forcing the workers who are already suffering the most from the virus back to work. The general public wants no part of it yet; they don't feel safe, for good reason. Go to the beach, yes; go back to a crowded office with a strong air conditioning system or an assembly line with no real social distancing, no. But many have no choice.
I've heard a lot of responses to this. I'll let the guys (in this case) at Crooked Timber reply to a set of them as well:
https://crookedtimber.org/2012/07/01/let-it-bleed-libertarianism-and-the-workplace/
Warning: this is a long post. Definitely worth reading, however.
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“Some people – employees with poor bargaining power and no savings – may find themselves effectively coerced into a return to work as normal.”
Yea well I mean if they’re currently not working and later they’re not working, then they’re not working.
The guy across the street from me manages a large section of a manufacturing plant in the area. He oversees several dozen employees. They were all called back to work to start a week ago Monday. Everybody but a handful said they were coming back. He told a handful they could have an extra week to think about it if they wanted, but he would then need to fill their roles with other employees if they don’t come back.
Not 1 of them suggested he shut the plant down and put all 75 of them out of work. They worked together to get the employees to file for unemployment and stay home. The current law allows for a boosted pay for at least another couple months. True, if they are comfortable down the road in returning to work, their jobs might not be available to them. But situations like that come up every single day, Do I stay home with kids longer. One of my parents needs extra care. Special needs child. Etc.
takethepoints
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This is a false dichotomy and you know it.
If we weren't in the middle of an epidemic involving a disease that is easily contagious and deadly too boot, then the argument might have some relevance. (Though, as the second link shows, not a whole lot.) But, of course, we are. It isn't that your bud should close his plant; it's that we should provide him with the wherewithal to a) keep everyone on staff until it is safe to move them back to work and b) make the workplace safe for his employees. We did that and he still insists that his workers show up when a) he finds it profitable and b) when he finds conditions that may threaten their health sufficiently reduced.
I'm not certain, but I bet the employment contract his workers signed on for didn't include, "Show up for work when I think you should put your health at risk." But that's what he's saying, stripped of all the ornaments. Since the government has stepped in and given him leeway to avoid such a coercive and arrogant course, I'd say he's obliged to at least take his workers views on their own health with more then a grain of salt. To portray his insistence as business as usual is disingenuous at best. To portray it as within his rights means that his employees don't have any.
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Uhhhhhhhh, huh? A bunch of assertions as usual that nobody is saying. In fact, I showed how this company did the opposite. Nobody forced anybody wo work - he made sure they were taken care of. Not sure how much more clearly I could have worded that. Not sure how you read it in the opposite. No he's not saying to show up and work when its unsafe. Everybody gets new gloves and a new mask each day to start the shift. Hand sanitizer stations abound. They are socially distanced. Everybody gets their temperature checked before they can enter the plant. There's nothing else I heard he can do to make it any more safe. Now having said that, these people in the job they're in will get (as best I can tell) the vast majority of their income replaced through unemployment.
What would you advise be different? You said keep them on staff. So now companies have to pay employees to not work? We did NOT do that. They can't do that if they're paying employees also to work. The loans don't work that way - you can't be at full employment and also pay other employees who aren't working on the side. You're also assuming everybody can qualify for loans and gets the money, which is also incorrect.
Sometimes people have extraneous circumstances and can't work even though they really want to. Sometimes people hate their boss. Sometimes they're susceptible to a virus and are worried about working anymore. Well, it is what it is. Life is not fair. Vaccines haven't cured the Flu either. Those people that don't feel comfortable today likely won't in 3 months, 6 months, and in 2 years. The notion they should just sit there and draw a salary is an unworkable position for a variety of reasons. Don't take it out on the employer or the other employees. If you're frustrated because some people can't work and its not fair, then take it out on the incompetent government who once again failed at the basic idea we all knew was coming and had to be addressed.
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Deleted member 2897
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Too late to edit, but from the government's own website on the PPP, here are the rules you have to attest to (this is a copy/paste from the website for the rules of the loans):
- Current economic uncertainty makes the loan necessary to support your ongoing operations.
- The funds will be used to retain workers and maintain payroll or to make mortgage, lease, and utility payments.
Basically, you'd have to falsify the paperwork in order to qualify for the loan to cover these employees that aren't actually working because they were not comfortable coming into work.
These people can get boosted unemployment for at least another 3 months. So my recommendation is they look for another job that they would feel comfortable in - in the meantime they'd be getting paid the vast majority of their old salary for at least the next 3 months (it will likely be extended) anyway while they search for another job.
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On the world news tonight, they said that official deaths in Brazil are probably 15 times higher than what is reported. Mexico they said has very little testing ability too, and deaths are probably 5 times higher. Makes sense, because there’s no way we’re a third of the global cases and deaths.
forensicbuzz
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This may be a little off-topic, but some of the recent posts brought this to mind...
Do you know why they called the pandemic in 1917/18 the Spanish Influenza? Well, it isn't because it started in Spain. It actually started in China.
How then did it take on the moniker "Spanish Flu?" Well, because it was wartime. Neither side of the conflict in WWI wanted the enemy to know how badly the flu was devastating their ranks, so they grossly under-reported their numbers. Spain, on the other hand, was a neutral country and didn't have a dog in the fight, so they reported their numbers more accurately. The high infection rates in Spain reported in the Press led people to think that Spain was a major hot spot, thus it became known as the Spanish Flu. It's all about controlling the message.
Do you know why they called the pandemic in 1917/18 the Spanish Influenza? Well, it isn't because it started in Spain. It actually started in China.
How then did it take on the moniker "Spanish Flu?" Well, because it was wartime. Neither side of the conflict in WWI wanted the enemy to know how badly the flu was devastating their ranks, so they grossly under-reported their numbers. Spain, on the other hand, was a neutral country and didn't have a dog in the fight, so they reported their numbers more accurately. The high infection rates in Spain reported in the Press led people to think that Spain was a major hot spot, thus it became known as the Spanish Flu. It's all about controlling the message.
Supersizethatorder-mutt
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Something very interesting I learned tonight: Liberty University in Lynchburg, VA resumed on-campus classes, including dorms after Spring break in March, and since that time, they have not had one single case of Covid on campus.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...irus-disaster-now-the-model-to-follow-falwell
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...irus-disaster-now-the-model-to-follow-falwell
RonJohn
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They didn't resume on-campus classes. They had students in the dorms, but even those students were taking their classes online. Those students had to follow social distancing guidelines. Meals were not available to eat in the cafeterias, they had to be take-out. If you look at the chart posted in that article, the number of students on campus after/before Spring break is lower than the ratio of on campus resident students at UCLA and TA&M, so Liberty was more closed than UCLA.
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College will be interesting to watch. Can you imagine paying $50k for out of state tuition somewhere to have your kid living at home with you taking internet based classes? There’s gonna be some enrollment changes......
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I read another history of the Spanish Flu where the origin was at Ft Riley, Kansas. The writer related it to the horses for cavalry, but at any rate the surrounding area was a large farming area with lots of livestock.
Spain objected to the name, and there’s decent evidence the name is because our newspapers didn’t want it called “Deadly Kansas Flu”
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Milwaukee
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GT_EE78
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> China reported only 6 cases and 0 deaths yesterday
Bloomberg: Don’t look now, but China just locked down over 100 million in new COVID-19 outbreak
https://hotair.com/archives/ed-morr...ust-locked-100-million-new-covid-19-outbreak/
Bloomberg: Don’t look now, but China just locked down over 100 million in new COVID-19 outbreak
https://hotair.com/archives/ed-morr...ust-locked-100-million-new-covid-19-outbreak/
MWBATL
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I don't know about that. I understand that Liberty had 1,200 students on campus during this "panic" and had no cases ...let's repeat that...ZERO cases... that were traceable to campus origins.
If your point is that it wasn't a "normal" campus environment, you are certainly correct. Labs were however open, but 2 out of every 3 pouter workstations were closed to maintain distancing. It remains an unknown as to how many covid cases would concur if a "normal" reopening were to occur. My guess is that we'll never know, because although I believe college campuses will indeed re-open this Fall, I do also believe there will be added safety measures taken...similar yo but not as extreme as those taken at Liberty.
Now, if we want to talk about the media reaction among "experts" about Liberty's re-opening, that is more appropriate for the political threads. All I'll say is...."panic" is a good descriptor.
MWBATL
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Proving yet again that all lockdowns do is slow the spread, and that eventually this virus will make its way everywhere.
forensicbuzz
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I've heard Kansas, China, and France. The Spanish actually called it French Flu.
MWBATL
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Another interesting take on what the future might look like:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/supers...onavirus-11589977873?mod=cxrecs_join#cxrecs_s
Basic thrust is that we can return to "normal" as long as we restrict large group gatherings and wear masks. This affects large cities the most, as metro transit systems qualify...as well of course as sporting events. BUT, the good news is that sporting events without fans seem much more likely to be safe. I wouldn't want to own a bar right about now though. Goodness knows how long before they will be allowed to re-open.
It will be interesting....
https://www.wsj.com/articles/supers...onavirus-11589977873?mod=cxrecs_join#cxrecs_s
Basic thrust is that we can return to "normal" as long as we restrict large group gatherings and wear masks. This affects large cities the most, as metro transit systems qualify...as well of course as sporting events. BUT, the good news is that sporting events without fans seem much more likely to be safe. I wouldn't want to own a bar right about now though. Goodness knows how long before they will be allowed to re-open.
It will be interesting....
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