Coronavirus Thread

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Boaty1

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If patient zero died on the spot we wouldn't have been in this situation...but here we are. China deserves a LOT of blame, but to sit here with "ifs and buts" and not address containment and treatment in a coordinated effort and constantly point fingers does what? The virus isn't going to stop in its tracks and wait for China to admit fault or pay for damages.

We either deal with this in a coordinated effort or we all reap the devastation both economically and personally together. The virus is out of the bag...it's not going back in regardless of what China did or didn't do.

The virus isn't going away regardless of what we do. No level of mitigation will kill this thing. China is proof of that.

How long do you propose we stay in lockdown mode? What metrics are you looking for our nation/world to meet before we open things back up?
 
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You missed my point about patient zero.

You're right, China should be held accountable. Their day of reckoning will come...and Trump is actually working on a plan with other countries that I actually think is pretty good. The bigger issue is, until they're held accountable, what is the world going to do about containing and treating the virus? You can sit there complain about what China did or didn't do, but what good is that now? The virus is out of the box and it's not going back in. The only way to fight the virus is together, and in a coordinated fashion. Complaining about China doesn't do anyone any good.

No man is an island.
I don't disagree with that, but the fact is that there are many people in this country who don't want even to consider China, whether now or in the future, because of their investments there. And many, not all, in the media are complicit in their denial. Yes, the focus now should be in treating, curing, preventing the virus, but some of those same China-deniers are also complicit, for various reasons, in blocking or hindering efforts to attain the immediate goal. The whole deal with hydroxychloroquine and the hoarding of PPE's and the draconian measures instituted in some places is doing more to put power and politics over reason and viable efforts, and none of that is IMO good for the supposedly common goal.
 

Techster

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The virus isn't going away regardless of what we do. No level of mitigation will kill this thing. China is proof of that.

How long do you propose we stay in lockdown mode? What metrics are you looking for our nation/world to meet before we open things back up?

I think we are beyond a full scale lockdown. It would have been more impactful the first month or two the world found out, but since every country (and every state within the US) did not coordinate their efforts, the full scale lockdown was really moot. The world, and the US, has missed the window for lockdowns to become truly effective. Our economy and the world's economy will not be able to handle a prolonged full scale lockdown.

At this point, it's about limiting exposure. There are things we can do in a coordinated way that can help open the economy up yet limit exposure. Unfortunately, we have to get past the thought that things will be back to normal until we develop a vaccine. There are inconveniences we will have to put up with, and some of the things we use to enjoy will be limited.
 

GT_EE78

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I would think that ANY medication that even seems to help some would be worth of consideration, instead of the continuing negative, mostly false or exaggerated, claims that some have given us. I heard a doctor from a nursing home in Texas last night state unequivocally that by administering HCQ to his residents, he saw an almost 100% success rate. Sure, that's not an official study, and is only observational in nature, but so what? It apparently worked. So why not look more into it, instead of, in some cases, banning doctors from prescribing it? It just seems blatantly obvious that it's all political. Those on the left, including some doctors, don't want it to work, solely because Trump suggested that it might.
I'm glad you mentioned that. It is a hopeful story for those suffering with coronavirus.Summary detail below:

The Resort at Texas nursing home had an outbreak of coronavirus that infected 56 residents.
Dr. Robin Armstrong immediately administered hydroxychloroquine along with Zpac and Zinc.
Only one nursing home patient died since the doctor prescribed the hydroxychloroquine. 55 made it.
> sure this story is anecdotal,but given the amazing success treating the coronavirus, it sure seems antidotal too.
> I'm not suggesting that media would rather see people die, but media coverage has been disingenuous and sad
> although political motivations exist we'll learn more in the coming weeks/months about how big pharma is spending and lobbying.
 

GTRX7

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It sure ain't, and concentration is only one piece of it.

Try this one - go stand 30 feet away from someone indoors who sprays Fabreeze for 1 second. Then go stand 30 feet away from someone outdoors downwind and have them spray Fabreeze for 1 second. Fun!

Yup, it is that simple. In the scenario you describe, I suspect that exposure would be fairly negligible in both cases if they stayed in place for 30 seconds, so no real difference. However, if both people stay in place for 5 minutes, I would absolutely 100% bet on the guy indoors standing 30 feet away getting more exposure than the guy downwind outdoors 30 feet away.
 
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I'm glad you mentioned that. It is a hopeful story for those suffering with coronavirus.Summary detail below:

The Resort at Texas nursing home had an outbreak of coronavirus that infected 56 residents.
Dr. Robin Armstrong immediately administered hydroxychloroquine along with Zpac and Zinc.
Only one nursing home patient died since the doctor prescribed the hydroxychloroquine. 55 made it.
> sure this story is anecdotal,but given the amazing success treating the coronavirus, it sure seems antidotal too.
> I'm not suggesting that media would rather see people die, but media coverage has been disingenuous and sad
> although political motivations exist we'll learn more in the coming weeks/months about how big pharma is spending and lobbying.
Glad you provided the names. I saw the report, but I didn't remember the name of the home or the doctor.
 

bobongo

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I don't disagree with that, but the fact is that there are many people in this country who don't want even to consider China, whether now or in the future, because of their investments there. And many, not all, in the media are complicit in their denial. Yes, the focus now should be in treating, curing, preventing the virus, but some of those same China-deniers are also complicit, for various reasons, in blocking or hindering efforts to attain the immediate goal. The whole deal with hydroxychloroquine and the hoarding of PPE's and the draconian measures instituted in some places is doing more to put power and politics over reason and viable efforts, and none of that is IMO good for the supposedly common goal.

The way I look at this is that no matter whether the virus came from a lab in Wuhan or a bat in a wet market, both are probably accidents but exhibit a terrible carelessness. I find it astounding that China has done nothing to curb the operation of the wet markets, which, whether they're culpable in the current crisis, are a clear and present danger to world health. In any case, China's secrecy and hoarding of medical supplies are inexcusable. And it should be investigated whether this was an accident as well.

As for the media, they're reporting all of this so your consternation regarding them is overdone. We won't be served by yet another attack on the free press. Such attacks play directly into the hands of despots. Do not blame the messenger. The story is getting out and all these possibilities are being talked about and investigated. As for hydroxychloroquine, it has been investigated by medical science and seems to have been proven too dangerous, no matter what one doctor somewhere says. There are more promising potential treatments out there.
 

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Yup, it is that simple. In the scenario you describe, I suspect that exposure would be fairly negligible in both cases if they stayed in place for 30 seconds, so no real difference. However, if both people stay in place for 5 minutes, I would absolutely 100% bet on the guy indoors standing 30 feet away getting more exposure than the guy downwind outdoors 30 feet away.

How much exposure is enough? In other words if someone spit in my mouth or I drank 2 gallons of Coronavirus beer, either way I’ve got it. Mmmm, now I’m thirsty.
 
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The way I look at this is that no matter whether the virus came from a lab in Wuhan or a bat in a wet market, both are probably accidents but exhibit a terrible carelessness. I find it astounding that China has done nothing to curb the operation of the wet markets, which, whether they're culpable in the current crisis, are a clear and present danger to world health. In any case, China's secrecy and hoarding of medical supplies are inexcusable. And it should be investigated whether this was an accident as well.

As for the media, they're reporting all of this so your consternation regarding them is overdone. We won't be served by yet another attack on the free press. Such attacks play directly into the hands of despots. Do not blame the messenger. The story is getting out and all these possibilities are being talked about and investigated. As for hydroxychloroquine, it has been investigated by medical science and seems to have been proven too dangerous, no matter what one doctor somewhere says. There are more promising potential treatments out there.
A free press SHOULD be a responsible press, and we are seeing very little of that today. And do you not think that when people on the left slam and besmirch the most conservative media outlets we have in Fox News and some print media, that the left is advocating a "free press" in doing so? What's good for the goose, is good for the gander. The conservative media sure got it right about Russian collusion, while the MSM spread lies for 3 years, and when they were proven to be lies just let it drop, never retracting or apologizing. And if you don't think the attacks by the left on conservative media is playing directly into the hands of despots, then you are blind. We can witness now the behavior of despot wannabes in various blue states in the country, while the red state governments are trying to let the people decide.
Hydroxycholoroquine has been around and widely used for 70+ years. It has SOME negative side-effects that have been known since day 1. It has definitely not been proven to be a dangerous drug. Again, that is the result of lies spread by big pharma and the anti-Trump media, who would probably reject a cure for cancer if he suggested its efficacy. Have we heard of any deaths in the past 6 months due to HCL usage? NOPE. But we HAVE heard of some apparent successes in treatment of Copid with the drug. The newest name to be bandied about (the one that begins with the letter "r") is no more PROVEN in its results than HCL, but of course it bears looking into, at the same time continuing to look into HCL and any other treatments that might arise.
 
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RonJohn

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While this conclusion may be true, seems pretty clear that Sweden has proved their model led to more deaths so far compared to its similarly situated neighbors. And it is still yet unclear how much better, if any, it’s strategy was for the economy. Guess it depends which one you are more willing to gamble with - lives or money?

It is also possible that deaths in the more locked down locations are only pushed out instead of avoided. If you look at the generic epidemiology charts, when you flatten the curve, you extend it out for a much longer time. There were concerns a few weeks ago that the tail on the IHME model wasn't long enough. In areas that had passed the peaks, the drop off wasn't happening as fast as the model had predicted. I don't know it to be the case, but that would make sense from looking at the generic charts.

You have to consider exceeding medical capacity, but IF flattening the curve as much as we have hasn't reduced the number of deaths, but only extended the time it takes to reach them, then it isn't just a question of lives vs money. It is possible that a certain number of people will die no matter how much things are shut down. At that point it would only be how much economic pain we want to suffer. It is possible that if we stay completely shut down for 18 months that a vaccine might be available and actually save some of those lives. A vaccine isn't certain. The economic pain from extending this type of shutdown for 18 months would end up costing lives. The meat industry is having issues. If meat becomes unavailable or too expensive for the majority of people vegans might be happy. However, vegetable farmers have been concerned that they won't be able to harvest their crops. If meat, fruits, and vegetables become unavailable or too expensive for the majority of people there will be more deaths from starvation than from COVID-19.

The shut downs happened to try to keep from stressing medical capacity. Doing a hard shut down made sense at the time. We should have immediately started looking for things that little to no chance of spreading infection and reopening those things. We should have been looking for ways to allow people to work with lowered chance of becoming infected. That isn't just for being able to reopen closed businesses, but to protect workers in essential businesses also. It doesn't have to be only a lives-vs-money balance. If we don't protect the food supply workers, then there won't be food for the rest to eat. If we keep paying more money to the non-essential business employees through unemployment than the food supply workers make working, then eventually there will be a revolt by food supply workers. I don't expect a slaughter house to be able to determine what they should do. We should try to establish some guidelines: separation, ventilation, sanitation, quality of masks and other PPE, etc. Release such guidelines and there will be work for: industrial engineers(separation), HVAC contractors(ventilation), chemical companies(sanitation), paper or clothing companies(masks, PPE).

Those proposals are just generic ideas on my part. My point is we should be trying to both protect people and allow them to be productive. We need to be opening businesses/activities that are low risk for infection. We need to be looking for ways to protect people at other businesses/activities. Orange County California asked the governor to just tell them what the rules are to open beaches, like Ventura County, and they will follow them. Waffle House asked the Georgia governor for the regulations to be able to open and said that they will follow them. I don't know that restaurants are a good idea at this point and I don't know that the regulations for restaurants in Georgia are effective. However, people are willing to abide by whatever reasonable regulations enable them to do more. At some point (and actually already happening somewhat) people are just going to ignore all regulations and do whatever they want to.

It isn't just lives-vs-money. It is how many lives are actually saved/lost if we remain where we are or if we increase the medical burden closer to capacity. It is how many lives will be lost if the food supply is impacted greatly. It is how many lives will be lost if we enter a depression like in the 1930s. There is so much more impacted and at stake. Those don't make it on the news because it takes longer to discuss than sound bites and bickering with no actual discussion of ideas.
 

GT_EE78

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As for hydroxychloroquine, it has been investigated by medical science and seems to have been proven too dangerous,
False.
It's been considered safe and effective now for about 70 years. AND approved by FDA for about that long too!
Doctors know this , as do the people who have taken it for RA,Lupus,malaria prevention,etal
 

RonJohn

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I would think that ANY medication that even seems to help some would be worth of consideration, instead of the continuing negative, mostly false or exaggerated, claims that some have given us. I heard a doctor from a nursing home in Texas last night state unequivocally that by administering HCQ to his residents, he saw an almost 100% success rate. Sure, that's not an official study, and is only observational in nature, but so what? It apparently worked. So why not look more into it, instead of, in some cases, banning doctors from prescribing it? It just seems blatantly obvious that it's all political. Those on the left, including some doctors, don't want it to work, solely because Trump suggested that it might.

There are clinical studies being conducted, so they are looking more into it. I don't see politics in maintaining medical safeguards. Remdesivir was touted after similar results from clinical trials as HCQ from non-clinical trials. Get actual clinical information about HCQ and it will be touted as well. It is dangerous for non-medical or non-scientific people to believe that they know more about medicine than scientists and doctors. There might be some scientists and doctors who believe the HCQ works, but science doesn't determine truth from believe, it determines truth from proof. Let the clinical trials play out. We might find that HCQ is effective. We might find out that survivor plasma is effective. We might find out that the artificial antibody is effective. We need peer reviewed proof instead of hacked together studies and conjecture.
 

GTRX7

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It is also possible that deaths in the more locked down locations are only pushed out instead of avoided. If you look at the generic epidemiology charts, when you flatten the curve, you extend it out for a much longer time. There were concerns a few weeks ago that the tail on the IHME model wasn't long enough. In areas that had passed the peaks, the drop off wasn't happening as fast as the model had predicted. I don't know it to be the case, but that would make sense from looking at the generic charts.

You have to consider exceeding medical capacity, but IF flattening the curve as much as we have hasn't reduced the number of deaths, but only extended the time it takes to reach them, then it isn't just a question of lives vs money. It is possible that a certain number of people will die no matter how much things are shut down. At that point it would only be how much economic pain we want to suffer. It is possible that if we stay completely shut down for 18 months that a vaccine might be available and actually save some of those lives. A vaccine isn't certain. The economic pain from extending this type of shutdown for 18 months would end up costing lives. The meat industry is having issues. If meat becomes unavailable or too expensive for the majority of people vegans might be happy. However, vegetable farmers have been concerned that they won't be able to harvest their crops. If meat, fruits, and vegetables become unavailable or too expensive for the majority of people there will be more deaths from starvation than from COVID-19.

The shut downs happened to try to keep from stressing medical capacity. Doing a hard shut down made sense at the time. We should have immediately started looking for things that little to no chance of spreading infection and reopening those things. We should have been looking for ways to allow people to work with lowered chance of becoming infected. That isn't just for being able to reopen closed businesses, but to protect workers in essential businesses also. It doesn't have to be only a lives-vs-money balance. If we don't protect the food supply workers, then there won't be food for the rest to eat. If we keep paying more money to the non-essential business employees through unemployment than the food supply workers make working, then eventually there will be a revolt by food supply workers. I don't expect a slaughter house to be able to determine what they should do. We should try to establish some guidelines: separation, ventilation, sanitation, quality of masks and other PPE, etc. Release such guidelines and there will be work for: industrial engineers(separation), HVAC contractors(ventilation), chemical companies(sanitation), paper or clothing companies(masks, PPE).

Those proposals are just generic ideas on my part. My point is we should be trying to both protect people and allow them to be productive. We need to be opening businesses/activities that are low risk for infection. We need to be looking for ways to protect people at other businesses/activities. Orange County California asked the governor to just tell them what the rules are to open beaches, like Ventura County, and they will follow them. Waffle House asked the Georgia governor for the regulations to be able to open and said that they will follow them. I don't know that restaurants are a good idea at this point and I don't know that the regulations for restaurants in Georgia are effective. However, people are willing to abide by whatever reasonable regulations enable them to do more. At some point (and actually already happening somewhat) people are just going to ignore all regulations and do whatever they want to.

It isn't just lives-vs-money. It is how many lives are actually saved/lost if we remain where we are or if we increase the medical burden closer to capacity. It is how many lives will be lost if the food supply is impacted greatly. It is how many lives will be lost if we enter a depression like in the 1930s. There is so much more impacted and at stake. Those don't make it on the news because it takes longer to discuss than sound bites and bickering with no actual discussion of ideas.

I think it is extremely unlikely that Sweden's neighboring countries will reach the same mortality rate as Sweden, even in the long run. Flattening and extending the curve doesnt just delay the inevitable. As you state, it allows time for the development of a vaccine. But, even if a vaccine is never developed, it also allows for the development of treatments, the ability to ramp up testing to the point where testing and tracking is possible, and it reduces/eliminates hospitals becoming overwhelmed.

More than that, your assumption that the lock down countries will stay locked down for 18 months is not reality. In fact, because Sweden's neighboring countries have been able to so successfully stem the original spread of the virus, they are already beginning to open up in a smart, controlled way. Importantly, they are doing it at a time when the infection rate has actually reduced, not like the US, where we are just reaching peak in many places or only flat in others. Hopefully, those counties can therefore track and trace and avoid a second peak.
 
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There are clinical studies being conducted, so they are looking more into it. I don't see politics in maintaining medical safeguards. Remdesivir was touted after similar results from clinical trials as HCQ from non-clinical trials. Get actual clinical information about HCQ and it will be touted as well. It is dangerous for non-medical or non-scientific people to believe that they know more about medicine than scientists and doctors. There might be some scientists and doctors who believe the HCQ works, but science doesn't determine truth from believe, it determines truth from proof. Let the clinical trials play out. We might find that HCQ is effective. We might find out that survivor plasma is effective. We might find out that the artificial antibody is effective. We need peer reviewed proof instead of hacked together studies and conjecture.
I don't disagree with that. The problem, however, is that every clinical study thus far being performed on HCL is constantly picked apart by the media. I have no idea how efficacious those studies have been, but I would imagine that they have been no more or less worthy of consideration than clinical studies for a vast number of other unrelated drugs. It just seems that somebody for unknown reasons decided to wage a campaign against HCL, and nothing will silence them.
 

bobongo

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False.
It's been considered safe and effective now for about 70 years. AND approved by FDA for about that long too!
Doctors know this , as do the people who have taken it for RA,Lupus,malaria prevention,etal

Yeah, of course it has, but not for coronavirus. Too many overlapping heart complications.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2020/04/15/coronavirus-chloroquine-test-halted-drug/2983129001/

https://thehill.com/policy/internat...opped-after-irregular-heart-beats-detected-in
 
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Yeah, of course it has, but not for coronavirus. Too many overlapping heart complications.
And you don't think there are "overlapping heart complications" for other diseases as well? Do you think that everyone who has taken HCL for malaria protection has had healthy hearts? Do you know of anyone taking HCL for Covid who have died from heart problems?
 

bobongo

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And you don't think there are "overlapping heart complications" for other diseases as well? Do you think that everyone who has taken HCL for malaria protection has had healthy hearts? Do you know of anyone taking HCL for Covid who have died from heart problems?

Super, drugs taken for one thing are not necessarily appropriate for another.
 
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