Coronavirus Thread

[MWBATL]

Interesting discussion on Sweden and their approach to the chinese virus.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/weighing-swedens-coronavirus-model-11588631127?mod=opinion_lead_pos1

The points that really caught my eye were:

Mr. Tengell said the Swedish model assumes Covid-19 won’t be disappearing, and he has some support in unlikely quarters. “If we are to reach a new normal, in many ways Sweden represents a future model,” said World Health Organization official Michael Ryan last week. “If we wish to get back to a society in which we don’t have lockdowns, then society may need to adapt for a medium or potentially a longer period of time.”

Sweden, deeply intertwined in the global economy, unfortunately shows that some pandemic-caused economic pain is inevitable. The country’s central bank predicts gross domestic product will contract 6.9% or 9.7% in 2020, depending on how long the virus lingers. Its neighbors expect similar numbers. Unemployment could rise to 8.8% or 10.1%, up from 7.2% today. The Swedish hope is that its economy may pick up faster after its less damaging restrictions are lifted.

No one knows which mitigation strategy will save the most lives while doing the least economic harm. But the rush to condemn Sweden isn’t helpful. American governors should study the Swedish model as they begin relaxing statewide lockdowns.

 

[MWBATL]

This is a classic example of trying to find the truth in today's new media. On the one had we get this news report out of Australia:

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/c...m/news-story/55add857058731c9c71c0e96ad17da60

This article is a report about a dossier put together by Intelligence experts from 5 western allies (US, Australia, New Zealand, UK, and Canada). It certainly paints a sinister picture that would lead one to strongly suspect that the coronavirus escaped from the high level lad in Wuhan that was conducting research on...bat coronaviruses. It points out the warning sent out by US officials after a visit to the lab in early 2018 about inadequate safety measures and insufficient trained staff at the lab. Then a worker at the lab, (supposedly "Patient zero") disappeared and her bio and picture deleted form the Wuhan lab website. Hmmmmm. (To be fair, this article does state that official positions are that the virus originated in the wet market. It however raises the questions about it, and certainly indicates there is no evidence to conclude that is the case.)

Then, a day or two later, as if in an answering volley, comes this:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/04/politics/coronavirus-intelligence/index.html

(There are plenty of others out there, I just selected the CNN article) This article states that the same report states that it is "highly unlikely" that the virus escaped from a lab but that it originated in the wet market. Even though no bats are sold in the wet market. No bats live within 600 miles of the Wuhan wet market. Nevertheless, the CNN report lists comments form two unnamed diplomats who have seen the report and state that it likely originated int he wet market. (The CNN report doe snot comment on those two facts.)

When you read the articles in detail, you are left with complete confusion...apparently, the intelligence report being reference hedges its bets somewhat, and uses mostly "maybe" and "likely" terms to describe what happened. In other words, we do not really know what the report says, and we are getting very conflicting views on it from our news media.....all of whom seem ot have an axe to grind (one way or the other). The Daily Telegraph is a conservative media outlet in Australia. We all know where CNN stands.

The bottom line for me is that it seems very difficult to really get facts these days....articles seem jammed with reporters' or unnamed sources' opinions....and then we are all supposed to believe this stuff. I read those two articles and have NO CLUE whether the virus originated in a lab or in a wet market....but the details mentioned in the first article certainly lead me to be suspicious.

It would surely be nice to just get...some honest to goodness FACTS instead of spin.

Please note, I am not (particularly) trying to pick on CNN or the Daily Telegraph....I am finding this is the case with just about all news media these days.

 

[LibertyTurns]

@MWBATL No offense to those in the Intel business because it’s a fine way of making a living, but Intel Analysts are the military’s version of a career politician. Likely, could be, no evidence of but ...., we think, it appears, etc are all standard weasel words. If you don’t like what the Analyst told you, go one desk over and ask the next one or go to the guy’s boss and have him “relook” it. I know you probably know this but it isn’t arithmetic where 2 + 2 = 4. You’re asking people to reach conclusions with imperfect info often relying on human sources that have their own biases.

That’s why we have careerists like the Dookie researcher that defends her fellow lab. She wants the next lucrative contract with the Wuhan Lab, WHO, CDC, etc and doesn’t want the US to shutdown her gravy train.

 

[GoldZ]

Depends on whether you're using BMI as a measure of obesity. As a 6'0" man, if I weigh 195 pounds, I'm considered obese. That's just ridiculous. Now as a 6'0" 275-pound man, I agree, I'm obese (morbidly).

Agree on the cut off issue on the BMI charts, and most doctors I know do too. Sadly though, all it takes is basic observation. A trip to Walmart, any Mall, a cruise ship with predominately Americans, or a football game, is all you have to do. Needing to lose 20 lbs. is one thing, but needing to lose 40++ is what the Covid stats are not kind to.

 

[GTRX7]

If there is a breeze outdoors or you’re say running with someone, you have to keep extra distance. Airborne particles can travel much further if the air is moving.

Go try this experiment. Stand outside 6 feet from somebody as they spray fabreeze and each of you stand there for 30 seconds. Then go stand indoors 10 feet from somebody as they spray fabreeze and stand there for 30 seconds. Pretty sure you know which one will smell more strongly and for a much longer time will — indoors. It ain’t complicated.

 

[GTRX7]

No one knows which mitigation strategy will save the most lives while doing the least economic harm. But the rush to condemn Sweden isn’t helpful. American governors should study the Swedish model as they begin relaxing statewide lockdowns.

While this conclusion may be true, seems pretty clear that Sweden has proved their model led to more deaths so far compared to its similarly situated neighbors. And it is still yet unclear how much better, if any, it’s strategy was for the economy. Guess it depends which one you are more willing to gamble with - lives or money?

 

[grandpa jacket]

U.S. Absent from Coronavirus Virtual Vaccine Summit:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...spicuously-absent/ar-BB13AE4p?ocid=spartandhp

From the article:
"A senior Trump administration official said Monday the United States “welcomes” the efforts of the conference participants. He did not explain why the United States did not join them."

Kinda explains it all.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

Go try this experiment. Stand outside 6 feet from somebody as they spray fabreeze and each of you stand there for 30 seconds. Then go stand indoors 10 feet from somebody as they spray fabreeze and stand there for 30 seconds. Pretty sure you know which one will smell more strongly and for a much longer time will — indoors. It ain’t complicated.

It sure ain't, and concentration is only one piece of it.

Try this one - go stand 30 feet away from someone indoors who sprays Fabreeze for 1 second. Then go stand 30 feet away from someone outdoors downwind and have them spray Fabreeze for 1 second. Fun!

 

[GT_EE78]

Sorry, I don't post here every day and then I got the post button out of reflex, but I couldn't let this one pass. This is the way pseudoscience takes advantage of the rigorous controls of real science, by shifting positions rapidly as a number of real studies come out.

Again, the French studies out of Marseilles are of extremely poor quality. ..

Suggesting that Dr Didier Raoult's work is poor quality is absurd, but that's what some media propaganda does. he is one of the world's most respected experts for infectious disease.His studies aren't clinical trials by US standards nor should they be.He practices in Europe and follows their standards as he should. Those standards are less stringent than US so maybe that's what you were trying to point out.Sure there were small preliminary studies done.They secured funding for larger studies as is normal. 91.7% success (1061 patients) 0 side-effects is huge! . From wikipedia:
.
Didier Raoult (born March 13, 1952)[1] is a French physician and microbiologist. He holds M.D. and Ph.D. degrees and specializes in infectious diseases.
He has more than 2,300 indexed publications including 8 in Science, and 3 in Nature, the two most visible scientific journals according to the N&S index.
According to the Thomson Reuters source "Highly Cited Researchers List", Raoult is among the most influential researchers in his field and his publications are among the 1% most consulted in academic journals. He is one of the 99 most cited microbiologists in the world and one of the 73 most highly cited French scientists. One reason biased media loves to bash him is that he has been critical of math models used for support of bogus climate change stories.
.
A classic example of pseudoscience used by the media is conflating HCQ/CQ.they are separate medications. CQ is the red herring.it is rarely used.HCQ has been safe and effective for about 70 years and was created to avoid the CQ side effects. Once conflated then the side effects are mentioned to distort from honest coverage. Here's an article that explains a lot of the nonsense being used to attack hydroxychloroquine.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/05/02/pseudo-science-behind-the-assault-on-hydroxychloroquine/

 

[slugboy]

While this conclusion may be true, seems pretty clear that Sweden has proved their model led to more deaths so far compared to its similarly situated neighbors. And it is still yet unclear how much better, if any, it’s strategy was for the economy. Guess it depends which one you are more willing to gamble with - lives or money?

In addition , Apple iOS (iPhone) location data seems to show that Sweden’s behavior without a lockdown looks close to ours with a lockdown. That is, they aren’t traveling much or visiting stores often.

They also have federalized medical care (socialized medicine).

Their culture is different than ours.

We might not get the same results from the same strategy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Supersizethatorder-mutt]

Kinda explains it all.

So please tell us, oh wise one, what does it explain and what is the "all" you speak of.

 

[Techster]

Kinda explains it all.

The Covid-19 virus is good example of how global the world has become. Unless a country plans on isolating itself socially (no more travel in or out) and economically (no more trade in or out), there is no way to combat this virus without the cooperation of everyone. In some ways, what's going on in the United States is good microcosm of how it would play out around the world if every state doesn't implement the same measures, whatever they may be. Because of travels from city to city and state to state, what happens in one region affects the other. Right now, there is not a consensus among states and even cities on containment, so the virus will continue to spread because people move from city to city/state to state. You can apply that to movement around the world, it becomes a global effort on containment and treatment.

I don't expect this to go away anytime soon, especially if re-infection occurs which they are beginning to believe is a real possibility, until a legitimate vaccine is developed.

 

[Supersizethatorder-mutt]

Suggesting that Dr Didier Raoult's work is poor quality is absurd, but that's what some media propaganda does. he is one of the world's most respected experts for infectious disease.His studies aren't clinical trials by US standards nor should they be.He practices in Europe and follows their standards as he should. Those standards are less stringent than US so maybe that's what you were trying to point out.Sure there were small preliminary studies done.They secured funding for larger studies as is normal. 91.7% success (1061 patients) 0 side-effects is huge! . From wikipedia:
.
Didier Raoult (born March 13, 1952)[1] is a French physician and microbiologist. He holds M.D. and Ph.D. degrees and specializes in infectious diseases.
He has more than 2,300 indexed publications including 8 in Science, and 3 in Nature, the two most visible scientific journals according to the N&S index.
According to the Thomson Reuters source "Highly Cited Researchers List", Raoult is among the most influential researchers in his field and his publications are among the 1% most consulted in academic journals. He is one of the 99 most cited microbiologists in the world and one of the 73 most highly cited French scientists. One reason biased media loves to bash him is that he has been critical of math models used for support of bogus climate change stories.
.
A classic example of pseudoscience used by the media is conflating HCQ/CQ.they are separate medications. CQ is the red herring.it is rarely used.HCQ has been safe and effective for about 70 years and was created to avoid the CQ side effects. Once conflated then the side effects are mentioned to distort from honest coverage. Here's an article that explains a lot of the nonsense being used to attack hydroxychloroquine.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/05/02/pseudo-science-behind-the-assault-on-hydroxychloroquine/

I would think that ANY medication that even seems to help some would be worth of consideration, instead of the continuing negative, mostly false or exaggerated, claims that some have given us. I heard a doctor from a nursing home in Texas last night state unequivocally that by administering HCQ to his residents, he saw an almost 100% success rate. Sure, that's not an official study, and is only observational in nature, but so what? It apparently worked. So why not look more into it, instead of, in some cases, banning doctors from prescribing it? It just seems blatantly obvious that it's all political. Those on the left, including some doctors, don't want it to work, solely because Trump suggested that it might.

 

[Supersizethatorder-mutt]

The Covid-19 virus is good example of how global the world has become. Unless a country plans on isolating itself socially (no more travel in or out) and economically (no more trade in or out), there is no way to combat this virus without the cooperation of everyone. In some ways, what's going on in the United States is good microcosm of how it would play out around the world if every state doesn't implement the same measures, whatever they may be. Because of travels from city to city and state to state, what happens in one region affects the other. Right now, there is not a consensus among states and even cities on containment, so the virus will continue to spread because people move from city to city/state to state. You can apply that to movement around the world, it becomes a global effort on containment and treatment.

I don't expect this to go away anytime soon, especially if re-infection occurs which they are beginning to believe is a real possibility, until a legitimate vaccine is developed.

And if China had banned all international travel to and from Wuhan, like it banned all domestic travel to and from Wuhan, then maybe it would have been contained from the outset.

 

[Techster]

And if China had banned all international travel to and from Wuhan, like it banned all domestic travel to and from Wuhan, then maybe it would have been contained from the outset.

If patient zero died on the spot we wouldn't have been in this situation...but here we are. China deserves a LOT of blame, but to sit here with "ifs and buts" and not address containment and treatment in a coordinated effort and constantly point fingers does what? The virus isn't going to stop in its tracks and wait for China to admit fault or pay for damages.

We either deal with this in a coordinated effort or we all reap the devastation both economically and personally together. The virus is out of the bag...it's not going back in regardless of what China did or didn't do.

 

[FredJacket]

If patient zero died on the spot we wouldn't have been in this situation...but here we are. China deserves a LOT of blame, but to sit here with "ifs and buts" and not address containment and treatment in a coordinated effort and constantly point fingers does what? The virus isn't going to stop in its tracks and wait for China to admit fault or pay for damages.

We either deal with this in a coordinated effort or we all reap the devastation both economically and personally together. The virus is out of the bag...it's not going back in regardless of what China did or didn't do.

I think there is an old saying.... All politics are viral. ...or maybe I have that wrong.

 

[Supersizethatorder-mutt]

If patient zero died on the spot we wouldn't have been in this situation...but here we are. China deserves a LOT of blame, but to sit here with "ifs and buts" and not address containment and treatment in a coordinated effort and constantly point fingers does what? The virus isn't going to stop in its tracks and wait for China to admit fault or pay for damages.

We either deal with this in a coordinated effort or we all reap the devastation both economically and personally together. The virus is out of the bag...it's not going back in regardless of what China did or didn't do.

China, nor anyone else, had any say-so in whether patient zero lived or died. They had everything to say about international flights to and from Wuhan. They protected their own people and said "screw you" to the rest of the world. They should be held accountable for all their actions.

 

[Techster]

I think there is an old saying.... All politics are viral. ...or maybe I have that wrong.

I think it's "All politicians are viruses"?

 

[Techster]

China, nor anyone else, had any say-so in whether patient zero lived or died. They had everything to say about international flights to and from Wuhan. They protected their own people and said "screw you" to the rest of the world. They should be held accountable for all their actions.

You missed my point about patient zero.

You're right, China should be held accountable. Their day of reckoning will come...and Trump is actually working on a plan with other countries that I actually think is pretty good. The bigger issue is, until they're held accountable, what is the world going to do about containing and treating the virus? You can sit there complain about what China did or didn't do, but what good is that now? The virus is out of the box and it's not going back in. The only way to fight the virus is together, and in a coordinated fashion. Complaining about China doesn't do anyone any good.

No man is an island.

 

[MWBATL]

While this conclusion may be true, seems pretty clear that Sweden has proved their model led to more deaths so far compared to its similarly situated neighbors. And it is still yet unclear how much better, if any, it’s strategy was for the economy. Guess it depends which one you are more willing to gamble with - lives or money?

It is a little more grey than that....deaths in the long run may equalize (depending upon when and if vaccine or treatments are found for the virus)..and as you say it is unclear if the economic benefits have been worth the risk they decided to take....but their point was that too much blame and outrage has been pointed their way, when in point of fact their way (in the LONG RUN) might (N.B.- MIGHT) turn out to be a good approach. Even the WHO has said so (for those who value that organization's opinion).