Conference Realignment

[stinger78]

Why does it matter to anyone if the Colorado quarterback has a Rolls Royce? If he wasn't playing football and his dad bought it for him would it still make you upset? College football is loaded with money now. How many more people watched Auburn in 2010 to see Cam Newton play? How many more people watched Florida in the late 2000s to see Tebow play? How many people watched Clemson games in the late 2010s to see Trevor Lawrence play? I am asking about people who had no interest in Auburn, Florida, nor Clemson, but watched those games to see those specific players. Those players made extra money for ESPN, extra money for the announcers, and extra money for Auburn/Florida/Clemson based on their name, and video image.



From what I can find, in 1982 only two Auburn football games were televised. This year, unless the FCS game was streaming only, every game will be televised. It is a different world in college athletics.

That college football is loaded with money now is THE problem.

 

[RonJohn]

That college football is loaded with money now is THE problem.

I agree with that. There are many people however who think that nothing is wrong with the money in college football, as long as the players don't have access to any of it. If the same money exists, and college players can't afford to order a pizza, all is good. If that money exists and a player can own a nice car, the system has been wrecked. In my opinion, the college system has been wrecked since at least the 90s, but people have been wearing blinders to it.

 

[Vespidae]

I agree with that. There are many people however who think that nothing is wrong with the money in college football, as long as the players don't have access to any of it. If the same money exists, and college players can't afford to order a pizza, all is good. If that money exists and a player can own a nice car, the system has been wrecked. In my opinion, the college system has been wrecked since at least the 90s, but people have been wearing blinders to it.

Has it been wrecked? I dunno. The same top 30 teams today are the same as 30 years ago.

I heard yesterday that in the pros, 38% of teams regularly make the playoffs and that college teams feel likewise... if they commit more, they should get more.

Dollars. I think in terms of if $192 million, what would that do to campus infrastructure, education, investment, etc. The numbers today are mind blowing in size.

Will I be there Saturday? Sure. Will I donate? No.

 

[stinger78]

I agree with that. There are many people however who think that nothing is wrong with the money in college football, as long as the players don't have access to any of it. If the same money exists, and college players can't afford to order a pizza, all is good. If that money exists and a player can own a nice car, the system has been wrecked. In my opinion, the college system has been wrecked since at least the 90s, but people have been wearing blinders to it.

College athletes have been rwceiving COA for over a decade now. That is in addition to the free degree and all the associated perks. Well in the 6-figures over 4 years, plus the degree itself for life. But we see now how valued that is.

 

[RonJohn]

College athletes have been rwceiving COA for over a decade now. That is in addition to the free degree and all the associated perks. Well in the 6-figures over 4 years, plus the degree itself for life. But we see now how valued that is.

The degree? GT has been pushing athletes to get degrees and to make personal decisions that affect them for the rest of their lives, regardless of their athletic performance for decades. I have talked to players from the early 80s tell me that Curry pushed them as hard in life as he did in football. UNC had fake degrees. How did those help their football players? The mutts were caught in the early 80s giving fake grades to football players. How does that help them later in life? Alabama has recruited players and cut them purely based on athletic performance since at least the 60s. How does that benefit those athletes?

NCAA football has not been following the amateur collegiate model for decades. The only rules to keep things operating as an amateur organization were related to the players. Like I said earlier, many people happily overlooked all of the issues with college athletics, until players started making money. If people had been adamant about maintaining an amateur spirit to college football for the past 50 years, we would not be in the place where we are now with respect to athletes being paid. We also wouldn't have $80 million dollar student athlete performance centers, $175 million indoor football practice facilities, $13 million per year coach's salaries, nor would we have every single college football game televised. People are now offended that players want to be paid, but should have been offended at the way "amateur collegeiate" football has been run for the last 40-50 years. If people had been offended at the move away from running college football under an amateur athletic model to running it as a business, we would not be in the position we are in today.

 

[Vespidae]

The degree? GT has been pushing athletes to get degrees and to make personal decisions that affect them for the rest of their lives, regardless of their athletic performance for decades. I have talked to players from the early 80s tell me that Curry pushed them as hard in life as he did in football. UNC had fake degrees. How did those help their football players? The mutts were caught in the early 80s giving fake grades to football players. How does that help them later in life? Alabama has recruited players and cut them purely based on athletic performance since at least the 60s. How does that benefit those athletes?

NCAA football has not been following the amateur collegiate model for decades. The only rules to keep things operating as an amateur organization were related to the players. Like I said earlier, many people happily overlooked all of the issues with college athletics, until players started making money. If people had been adamant about maintaining an amateur spirit to college football for the past 50 years, we would not be in the place where we are now with respect to athletes being paid. We also wouldn't have $80 million dollar student athlete performance centers, $175 million indoor football practice facilities, $13 million per year coach's salaries, nor would we have every single college football game televised. People are now offended that players want to be paid, but should have been offended at the way "amateur collegeiate" football has been run for the last 40-50 years. If people had been offended at the move away from running college football under an amateur athletic model to running it as a business, we would not be in the position we are in today.

Mostly true. The only solution now is for universities to pay students to attend. That would level the playing field.

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

If you want to level the playing field then we should have no rules. Let any school have any 11 players they want on the field at any given time. Have a hard date for the roster to be closed - say August 1st. Then play ball. If UGA wants to have 200 players on the team let them and their coaching staff deal with that. If you want all millionaires then let the coaching staff deal with it. Any rules you put in place will be manipulated by many and whoever is the enforcement branch of those rules will be bought off. The next step is having AI ref the games digitally so you don’t have homer refs determining the winner.

 

[LT 1967]

I agree with that. There are many people however who think that nothing is wrong with the money in college football, as long as the players don't have access to any of it. If the same money exists, and college players can't afford to order a pizza, all is good. If that money exists and a player can own a nice car, the system has been wrecked. In my opinion, the college system has been wrecked since at least the 90s, but people have been wearing blinders to it.

I definitely do not mind the college players making money from their football skills and the attention they bring to the universities. Plus, the players have to put in a lot of extra time in the weight room, film room, etc.

The part I do not like is the totally uncontrolled situation we currently have. Most sports organizations have rules in place to give each team within their conference or league an equal opportunity to compete for a championship. The most obvious example being the NFL with a salary cap for each team.

The House agreement is moving in that direction, with a salary cap of approximately 23 million per school for direct pay to athletes. Plus, the athletes can still have an NIL agreement. In the House agreement the NCAA has asked for a clearing house to confirm that an athlete's NIL deal actually requires some "work" on the part of the athlete, like an advertisement for a car dealer.

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

The House agreement is moving in that direction, with a salary cap of approximately 23 million per school for direct pay to athletes. Plus, the athletes can still have an NIL agreement. In the House agreement the NCAA has asked for a clearing house to confirm that an athlete's NIL deal actually requires some "work" on the part of the athlete, like an advertisement for a car dealer.

If you don’t see how that will manipulated then you haven’t been paying attention the past 40 years. Whatever “cap” or “requirements“ any governing entity will put in place will simply be ignored and done off the books. Sure, it sounds great to have Vandy and UGA both “capped” at 23 million. But do you really believe Bama and UGA will be fine with Vandy having the same number of 5 stars as they do? The only fair way is to have NO caps and then let everyone decide how much they want to spend for a win. A school like Vandy could easily outspend an Ole Miss if they decided that wins were that important just like GT could.

No one but me ever addresses the truth which we’ve all seen - when you put a rule in place only certain schools are held to that rule while others are given a free pass. That’s creates total anarchy and a fake sport. If I believed that schools like UGA, Bama, OSU, Oklahoma, etc would be punished the second they crossed the “23 million” cap then of course I’d be on board. But we know they won’t. Heck, I see high school kids getting offers to other high schools and the GHSA sits there and plays blind because the schools in power will never relinquish that power.

 

[RonJohn]

I definitely do not mind the college players making money from their football skills and the attention they bring to the universities. Plus, the players have to put in a lot of extra time in the weight room, film room, etc.

The part I do not like is the totally uncontrolled situation we currently have. Most sports organizations have rules in place to give each team within their conference or league an equal opportunity to compete for a championship. The most obvious example being the NFL with a salary cap for each team.

The House agreement is moving in that direction, with a salary cap of approximately 23 million per school for direct pay to athletes. Plus, the athletes can still have an NIL agreement. In the House agreement the NCAA has asked for a clearing house to confirm that an athlete's NIL deal actually requires some "work" on the part of the athlete, like an advertisement for a car dealer.

I still think it is going to take a collective bargaining agreement to have any resolution like you want. If the schools are deciding that the schools can pay directly to the athletes, but that it is a limited amount, how are they going to get around collusion lawsuits? Will the argument against such a lawsuit be that they aren't preventing actual NIL deals outside of the $23 million per school? That sounds a lot like a group of employers price-fixing the labor costs and claiming that it isn't collusion because the employees can make more money from side-gigs if they so choose.

I am not a lawyer. I know very little about employment law. However, I think that any limits on pay to athletes without a CBA will be difficult to get away with legally.

 

[ChicagobasedJacket]

I still think it is going to take a collective bargaining agreement to have any resolution like you want. If the schools are deciding that the schools can pay directly to the athletes, but that it is a limited amount, how are they going to get around collusion lawsuits? Will the argument against such a lawsuit be that they aren't preventing actual NIL deals outside of the $23 million per school? That sounds a lot like a group of employers price-fixing the labor costs and claiming that it isn't collusion because the employees can make more money from side-gigs if they so choose.

I am not a lawyer. I know very little about employment law. However, I think that any limits on pay to athletes without a CBA will be difficult to get away with legally.

Exactly, caps on income without collective bargaining would not withstand legal scrutiny in America. The NCAA definitely doesn’t want to go before the Supreme Court again.

 

[stinger78]

The degree? GT has been pushing athletes to get degrees and to make personal decisions that affect them for the rest of their lives, regardless of their athletic performance for decades. I have talked to players from the early 80s tell me that Curry pushed them as hard in life as he did in football. UNC had fake degrees. How did those help their football players? The mutts were caught in the early 80s giving fake grades to football players. How does that help them later in life? Alabama has recruited players and cut them purely based on athletic performance since at least the 60s. How does that benefit those athletes?

NCAA football has not been following the amateur collegiate model for decades. The only rules to keep things operating as an amateur organization were related to the players. Like I said earlier, many people happily overlooked all of the issues with college athletics, until players started making money. If people had been adamant about maintaining an amateur spirit to college football for the past 50 years, we would not be in the place where we are now with respect to athletes being paid. We also wouldn't have $80 million dollar student athlete performance centers, $175 million indoor football practice facilities, $13 million per year coach's salaries, nor would we have every single college football game televised. People are now offended that players want to be paid, but should have been offended at the way "amateur collegeiate" football has been run for the last 40-50 years. If people had been offended at the move away from running college football under an amateur athletic model to running it as a business, we would not be in the position we are in today.

You’re making my point for me, but GT has not been alone. Many others do the same: UVA, Dook, BC, Wake, Stanford, Cal, Vandy, Rice, academies, et al.

The Vince Dooley/Barry Switzer cabal in the early 80’s demonstrated that money matters (sic). What money touches it ultimately corrupts.

My point is GT has historically and successfully followed the
S-A paradigm fairly well, but now her alumni seem content to change. Why? To connect with programs that haven’t done so in our lifetimes? Again, why?

We almost never play B1G teams and few SECheat teams not named UGAg.

 

[iceeater1969]

You’re making my point for me, but GT has not been alone. Many others do the same: UVA, Dook, BC, Wake, Stanford, Cal, Vandy, Rice, academies, et al.

The Vince Dooley/Barry Switzer cabal in the early 80’s demonstrated that money matters (sic). What money touches it ultimately corrupts.

My point is GT has historically and successfully followed the
S-A paradigm fairly well, but now her alumni seem content to change. Why? To connect with programs that haven’t done so in our lifetimes? Again, why?

We almost never play B1G teams and few SECheat teams not named UGAg.

Looking at money.
We NOW are investing (new edge, fancy tv and seats) and spending(coach stsff, nil), player settlement allows school to pay$. gt is going to attract quality athletes from atl ga and major cities.

All with idea we will be getting bigger tv money down the road. What if..

But what if espn has to get lean to finance stupid disney decisions (Espn has recently laid of senior talking heads. )

The fcs and g5 will not go out of business. What if they form up effective regional streamable local products at reduced costs of broad cast. This will dilute the espn money.

Just as we finish spending a gambling scandal could shows some games are rigged and viewership drops.

what if the consumer protection agency getting active about the very large impact of footbal gambling on poor people. What if they add regulations and fines.

Onward thru the fog. Gt has started to move on the premise that major Metropolitan areas will do better than sparse rural areas.

 

[stinger 1957]

The government started the wrecking when they did title nine because CFB was where they looked to get the money for all the other sport cost and the CFB coaches recognized this and realized there was tremendous pressure put on CFB coaches to win because of need for money for title nine, It started the arms race with college coaches is the way I remember it. It was at that time the NCAA BB tournament was ramped up from what it had been in order to try and create money for the schools to try and meet the money demands of title nine and the added sport cost.
I expect if the truth were known a lot of people have no idea about most of this. The race to recruit better to win meant bigger, better facilities etc so more and more money was needed, Sports TV also started becoming a bigger and bigger part of college sports if I remember correctly. We had some TV coverage but it was nominal compared to today.
We might be in a different place today if the government had not gotten involved.
Will be some years but I expect the day is coming when it turns in another direction. I see a lot of forces coming that says to me it will end somewhere, sometime, somehow.

 

[RonJohn]

You’re making my point for me, but GT has not been alone. Many others do the same: UVA, Dook, BC, Wake, Stanford, Cal, Vandy, Rice, academies, et al.

The Vince Dooley/Barry Switzer cabal in the early 80’s demonstrated that money matters (sic). What money touches it ultimately corrupts.

My point is GT has historically and successfully followed the
S-A paradigm fairly well, but now her alumni seem content to change. Why? To connect with programs that haven’t done so in our lifetimes? Again, why?

We almost never play B1G teams and few SECheat teams not named UGAg.

It isn't just the treatment of SAs. GT athletics is run very much like a business. GT is currently running an effort to raise $500 million. Are you upset that GT is raising money to update BDS, Zelnak, and O'keefe? We are part of a system that is all run as a business. I think that it is inevitable at this point that the players will be declared employees by a judge or a government department.

My point is that these changes to the system have been going on for at least 40 years. Nobody was upset about athletics being run as a business until the athletes started getting some of the money.

 

[billga99]

It isn't just the treatment of SAs. GT athletics is run very much like a business. GT is currently running an effort to raise $500 million. Are you upset that GT is raising money to update BDS, Zelnak, and O'keefe? We are part of a system that is all run as a business. I think that it is inevitable at this point that the players will be declared employees by a judge or a government department.

My point is that these changes to the system have been going on for at least 40 years. Nobody was upset about athletics being run as a business until the athletes started getting some of the money.

i wonder if the 500MM includes paying off the old debt which is a burden for athletics. I would never expect them to say that since no one would contribute to pay off debt

 

[roadkill]

The government started the wrecking when they did title nine because CFB was where they looked to get the money for all the other sport cost and the CFB coaches recognized this and realized there was tremendous pressure put on CFB coaches to win because of need for money for title nine, It started the arms race with college coaches is the way I remember it. It was at that time the NCAA BB tournament was ramped up from what it had been in order to try and create money for the schools to try and meet the money demands of title nine and the added sport cost.
I expect if the truth were known a lot of people have no idea about most of this. The race to recruit better to win meant bigger, better facilities etc so more and more money was needed, Sports TV also started becoming a bigger and bigger part of college sports if I remember correctly. We had some TV coverage but it was nominal compared to today.
We might be in a different place today if the government had not gotten involved.
Will be some years but I expect the day is coming when it turns in another direction. I see a lot of forces coming that says to me it will end somewhere, sometime, somehow.

Conspiracy theory much? Too bad yours doesn't remotely pass a logic test.

 

[Root4GT]

The government started the wrecking when they did title nine because CFB was where they looked to get the money for all the other sport cost and the CFB coaches recognized this and realized there was tremendous pressure put on CFB coaches to win because of need for money for title nine, It started the arms race with college coaches is the way I remember it. It was at that time the NCAA BB tournament was ramped up from what it had been in order to try and create money for the schools to try and meet the money demands of title nine and the added sport cost.
I expect if the truth were known a lot of people have no idea about most of this. The race to recruit better to win meant bigger, better facilities etc so more and more money was needed, Sports TV also started becoming a bigger and bigger part of college sports if I remember correctly. We had some TV coverage but it was nominal compared to today.
We might be in a different place today if the government had not gotten involved.
Will be some years but I expect the day is coming when it turns in another direction. I see a lot of forces coming that says to me it will end somewhere, sometime, somehow.

Title IX is the only reason the US has Women's Olympic teams that are competitive now. Go around any City or Town on a Saturday or Sunday in the Fall or Spring and see the hundreds of thousands of girls that now play soccer on organized teams. Same in the Winter in gyms playing basketball. If Title IX was the cause for greed in College Athletics that is on the greedy and those that funded the greedy. Greed is the issue! It was coming Title IX or not!

 

[stinger 1957]

Root, It became greedy when title nine was implemented, I watched it happen. Don't know that it was coming or not, no way for me to tell that. I did not see it coming at that time and nothing today says to me it was coming. TV began ramping up about the time title nine came along and help feed the greed monster. I am one that believes you let these sort of things happen naturally and it will end up where it is supposed to be. I expect people that did not own Coca Cola stock thought Asa Candler was greedy to since they did not buy the stock. Those, I have found over the years, are the ones usually screaming the loudest yet they could have bought the stock. I've always thought that type person really was mad at themselves but just cannot own it. As far as I'm concerned it the same type person always yelling greed no matter where it's coming from. Academia is full of people of this nature, that is one of the reasons they're in academia and will never make it in the real world. There are do ers and the rest teach.

 

[stinger78]

It isn't just the treatment of SAs. GT athletics is run very much like a business. GT is currently running an effort to raise $500 million. Are you upset that GT is raising money to update BDS, Zelnak, and O'keefe? We are part of a system that is all run as a business. I think that it is inevitable at this point that the players will be declared employees by a judge or a government department.

My point is that these changes to the system have been going on for at least 40 years. Nobody was upset about athletics being run as a business until the athletes started getting some of the money.

Of course not. Perhaps I have misstated my issue. Perhaps you have misunderstood. Perhaps you are making the moral equivalency point that CFB has always been about money. It seems so. We will just agree to disagree: A petty theft is in no way the same as grand larceny.

I am fine with the upgrades. I have no issue with it.