Clinton & Trump are criminals and should be in jail. /sarcasm

[UgaBlows]

Forgive my ignorance, but is it illegal to use a 3rd party company (not from a hostile foreign country) to try and obtain opposition research on an opponent? Where's the scandal in this?

 

[ilovetheoption]

Forgive my ignorance, but is it illegal to use a 3rd party company (not from a hostile foreign country) to try and obtain opposition research on an opponent? Where's the scandal in this?

I think that's in question. I haven't been following the issue closely, but I want to say the law has language like "material Aid" or something to that effect. I'm open to being corrected here but I think that is both the issue behind the Democratic claims of trump getting Russia's help to win the election, and the Republicans claims that Democrats financed the anti Trump dossier.

 

[UgaBlows]

Some decent info about it here, it seems like there is a problem with the money that was spent not being reported correctly on campaign finance disclosure.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/25/us/politics/steele-dossier-trump-expained.html

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

Republican donor hired Fusion to dig up dirt on Trump...Steele and the dossier didn't begin until the DNC hired Fusion.

But yes...the establishment in both parties are dirty.

The incongruity is the lack of hysteria when the Dems get busted for what they were screaming Trump was guilty of.

 

[UgaBlows]

Republican donor hired Fusion to dig up dirt on Trump...Steele and the dossier didn't begin until the DNC hired Fusion.

But yes...the establishment in both parties are dirty.

The incongruity is the lack of hysteria when the Dems get busted for what they were screaming Trump was guilty of.

It's not really incongruity because the two issues are nothing alike. The Dossier was obtained in a legal and normal manner. The accusations against trump's campaign is collusion with a foreign hostile government to sway/change/steal an election.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

It's not really incongruity because the two issues are nothing alike. The Dossier was obtained in a legal and normal manner. The accusations against trump's campaign is collusion with a foreign hostile government to sway/change/steal an election.

I disagree but please cite on example of evidence of your allegation.

 

[UgaBlows]

I disagree but please cite on example of evidence of your allegation.

Evidence? i think thats what Mueller and his team are working on.

As far as comparing the two different situations, If you can't tell the difference between legal opposition research vs. trump Jr, Manafort and Kushner all meeting with a kremlin lawyer to get dirt on Clinton, knowing full well that it is part of the Russian government effort to help trump win then i can't really help you.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

It's not really incongruity because the two issues are nothing alike. The Dossier was obtained in a legal and normal manner. The accusations against trump's campaign is collusion with a foreign hostile government to sway/change/steal an election.

This is a complete misread of the facts.

The dossier is fake. The FBI knew it was fake information and came from rival campaigns, yet they used it to justify surveilling the Trump campaign for a year. Then the Obama Administration (which included numerous Clinton campaign people) unmasked the surveillance information to see who was doing what.

The FBI, Intelligence Agencies, Obama Administration, and Clinton campaign all conspired together based on nothing.

 

[UgaBlows]

Sorry but the dossier has not yet been proven fake.

Also false that it was used to begin the surveillence, investigation. Multiple agency heads have stated that the dossier was not used to begin the trump-russia investigation. Surveillence of trump campaign members started because they were having convo's with foreign intelligence.

This is all a pathetic attempt by the trump camp to get in front of upcoming court trials and attempt to get evidence barred from admission.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

Sorry but the dossier has not yet been proven fake.

Also false that it was used to begin the surveillence, investigation. Multiple agency heads have stated that the dossier was not used to begin the trump-russia investigation. Surveillence of trump campaign members started because they were having convo's with foreign intelligence.

This is all a pathetic attempt by the trump camp to get in front of upcoming court trials and attempt to get evidence barred from admission.

Um, yes it is fake. Its been what - a year now, and they never proved the stuff.

Also, in terms of starting the investigation, I'm just going off of what the intelligence people said. James Brennan in the CIA said specifically under oath that was a key part of justifying their investigation. And that dossier was also used to justify FISA requests for wire taps.

You do realize that you won't know if someone was having conversations with foreign people unless you are surveilling them in the first place, correct? And how do you get approval to unmask who is talking to these people? This is all tied together. If you think its not, I can't help you. Everyone on both sides of the aisle has said so.

This is not an attempt to get out in front of anything. Remember that what Manafort is likely getting in trouble for (we will see once the real information comes out publicly) was the payments from Ukraine/Russia back in 2014 that he broke laws around for not disclosing/etc. It was literally 3 years ago. Now I'm speculating a little, I'll grant you that, because all we know about the indictment is what came from illegally leaking information. Which by the way, is just another piece in a long line of illegality that nobody seems to care about. I guess if you're inside the intelligence agencies and FBI, you are above the law.

This is why its so important to either fire Mueller or get this done ASAP. Its been YEARS and they can't find anything? Lets see what they have on Manafort. If its anything other than what he did in 2014 that everyone already knew about, we need to get all this shut down. Hold Manafort accountable, but end the nonsense.

 

[UgaBlows]

Really?

"In May, Gowdy asked former CIA Director John Brennan whether his agency had relied on the unverified dossier in forming its conclusions about the Russian influence campaign. No, Brennan told him.

"It wasn't part of the corpus of intelligence information that we had," Brennan said. "It was not in any way used as a basis for the intelligence community assessment that was done."

 

[UgaBlows]

We won't know jack about how much of the dossier has been verified until Mueller and the fbi release their finding on trump and his associates. It's patently ridiculous to keep shouting that it's all fake when you absolutely don't know yet, nobody in the public does yet.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

Really?

"In May, Gowdy asked former CIA Director John Brennan whether his agency had relied on the unverified dossier in forming its conclusions about the Russian influence campaign. No, Brennan told him.

"It wasn't part of the corpus of intelligence information that we had," Brennan said. "It was not in any way used as a basis for the intelligence community assessment that was done."

I would recommend you go to one of the Liberal fact check sites to read up on this. What you'll read is your exact quote. What you'll also read is information that directly contradicts it interestingly enough. What those sites state is that the FBI and Intelligence Agencies DID rely on the fake dossier. And secret FISA wiretap requests WERE MADE and WERE APPROVED based on it. You'll read all of that on those fact checking websites.

That specific quote from Brennan was that the fake dossier wasn't used for the intelligence ASSESSMENT of whether Russia tried to influence the US election or not.

This stuff is incredible Clinton-type double speak. You have to be really clever to go back and read the back story and context on where these quotes came from to really understand it.

The intelligence agencies did NOT rely on the fake dossier to determine whether or not Russia influenced the election. The intelligence agencies DID rely on the fake dossier to forward their secret investigations and surveillance of Trump's campaign.

 

[UgaBlows]

"You do realize that you won't know if someone was having conversations with foreign people unless you are surveilling them in the first place, correct? And how do you get approval to unmask who is talking to these people? This is all tied together. If you think its not, I can't help you. Everyone on both sides of the aisle has said so."

When you are dumb enough to talk treason or illegal sanctions relief to a russian diplomat/spy then yes you should know that you will be surveilled. If it is a matter of national security or treasonous behavior then yes that person should be unmasked and investigated.

 

[UgaBlows]

I would recommend you go to one of the Liberal fact check sites to read up on this. What you'll read is your exact quote. What you'll also read is information that directly contradicts it interestingly enough. What those sites state is that the FBI and Intelligence Agencies DID rely on the fake dossier. And secret FISA wiretap requests WERE MADE and WERE APPROVED based on it. You'll read all of that on those fact checking websites.

That specific quote from Brennan was that the fake dossier wasn't used for the intelligence ASSESSMENT of whether Russia tried to influence the US election or not.

This stuff is incredible Clinton-type double speak. You have to be really clever to go back and read the back story and context on where these quotes came from to really understand it.

The intelligence agencies did NOT rely on the fake dossier to determine whether or not Russia influenced the election. The intelligence agencies DID rely on the fake dossier to forward their secret investigations and surveillance of Trump's campaign.

Again you have NO idea if it is fake, or how much the fbi has proven or verified from the dossier. What you are helping trump do is put doubt in peoples minds about it because you and they are scared ****less of what Mueller and his team are going to find on your precious dear leader. Why the big hurry to end the investigation and fire Mueller?

 

[Deleted member 2897]

Again you have NO idea if it is fake, or how much the fbi has proven or verified from the dossier. What you are helping trump do is put doubt in peoples minds about it because you and they are scared ****less of what Mueller and his team are going to find on your precious dear leader. Why the big hurry to end the investigation and fire Mueller?

I do know its fake, because even the news media says it is unverified. If that stuff in there were true, with everything else that has leaked, you can be damned sure the other stuff would have leaked. And why would they sit on it all this time instead of prosecuting? I guess we will find out who is right.

With regards to the surveillance and unmasking, I'm not talking about the Russian people. I'm talking about the Americans. POLITICAL people like Susan Rice were making tons of unmasking requests (and getting approval). Campaign people were being surveilled. For over a year.

Why the big hurry? Because there is nothing there. If there were, people would have been charged a year ago. Information would have been leaked about it a year ago. You know damned well with Obama in the White House, he would have had people go after it.

I guess we will see. If something actual concrete comes out of this, a lot of people will be all over Obama for not doing something about this a year ago and letting Trump get elected.

 

[UgaBlows]

This is all i've found on fisa warrents obtained via the dossier, it's regarding trump campaign adviser Carter Page. So it sounds like they have proven some of the dossier true huh? Of course trump has distanced himself from Page bigly so no biggie right if he was treasoning i guess?


"The FBI used the dossier alleging Russian ties to President Trump's campaign associates to help convince a judge to grant a warrant to secretly monitor former campaign aide Carter Page, CNN reports.

FBI Director James Comey has cited the dossier in some of his briefings with lawmakers in recent weeks as one of the information sources used by his bureau to bolster its probe, U.S. officials briefed on the investigation told CNN."

"Officials told CNN that information in the dossier had to be corroborated by the FBI before they could include it in the FISA application, although they would not specify what or how much of the dossier was corroborated."

 

[UgaBlows]

Exactly, lets see what happened. I thing Obama was paralyzed in a no-win situation but he may have f#cked us all with his passiveness.

 

[UgaBlows]

And i believe the unmaskingate (the last next bigger than watergate scandal) with Rice has turned out to be a big nothingburger, multiple gop members have said what she did was perfectly warranted.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

Well I am happy you are starting to come around. (FBI/Intelligence Services used that dossier). We are making progress.

I just got done reading up on the charges for Manafort. Amazing all this leaking was illegal and I know it now, so funny.

Anyway, all the stuff on Manafort is from early 2000s until a couple years ago. None of this affects the campaign. None of this affects Trump.

The charges are that he failed to register as a foreign agent, because during that time 15 years ago, he began making money consulting for the Ukrainian government (which was pro-Russia at the time). The statute of limitations only goes back 5 years on most felonies, so these charges therefore are only for a couple years. Interestingly, Manafort did actually register as a foreign agent, but only after it came out that he hadn't done that. So he I guess could make an argument that he didn't know better (which is BS, but maybe that affects the sentence). Anyway, also interestingly, Congress dictates that action is a misdemeanor, so I'm not sure that will amount to much.

Another charge is lying on the form when he did register. Basically, damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. So since he filed as a foreign agent, he therefore admitted he hadn't before which is a lie. LOL.

The other charges as best I can tell are money laundering stuff. To stick that on someone, you have to prove the money was gotten illegally in the first place. So its not like its from dealing drugs or getting paid under the table by someone. He simply would be getting stuck with this charge only because of his failure to originally file the right paperwork. Its not illegal to make money by working with bad people and to open foreign accounts and put the money there and not pay taxes on it. What is illegal is not filing the paperwork on that.

If this is as far as what comes out when its public (we'll have to see), this is incredibly weak. I see 1 of 2 outcomes:
1) "This is all you have, after all this? Stuff that we knew a long time ago?"
2) If more eventually comes out. "Really? You had this information for all this time and you did nothing to stop Trump from being elected?"

I highly highly doubt its #2, because if there was bad activity going on related to Trump, I just have a hard time with all the other nefarious illegal activity by the FBI and Intelligence Services that they would have sat on it.