CFP Discussion

Vespidae

Helluva Engineer
Messages
5,342
Location
Auburn, AL
I know, if we disagree it's because those pollsters are biased or worse.
I’m not in that camp. I don’t think there’s a conscious attempt to create outcomes in polls. But, that doesn’t mean bias/it doesn’t exist.

Those who participate in the polls “may” be more knowledgeable but many are not. They don’t pore over spreadsheets and analyses. They go to a secure website, make their picks, and move on. We just assume they are more knowledgeable. The problem, in my view is convergence. Since most of these folks read the same summaries … they tend to vote the same way.

Teams know this. That’s why they invite these guys to visit their practices, talk to players, coaches, tour facilities. Schools with fewer resources can’t do this nor can schools that are more difficult to travel to. If you live is Atlanta, would you be more likely to visit Athens and Knoxville, or Lafayette, IN?

There was a suggestion earlier to not publish polls until later in the season, say Week 5. I like the idea of playing 8 conference games and then … the governing authority (CFP?) chooses the out of conference games each will play using a criteria. No more for undefeated Alabama playing Chattanooga or MTSU. Let them win the SEC and play Penn State. Or USC. Or Miami.

Improve the ranking system and a lot of this makes more sense.
 

orientalnc

Helluva Engineer
Retired Staff
Messages
10,040
Location
Oriental, NC
Those who participate in the polls “may” be more knowledgeable but many are not. They don’t pore over spreadsheets and analyses. They go to a secure website, make their picks, and move on. We just assume they are more knowledgeable. The problem, in my view is convergence. Since most of these folks read the same summaries … they tend to vote the same way.
I believe you & I are both guessing about how much knowledge pollsters have. But, IIRC you are teaching at Auburn. No matter which classes you teach, it is my assumption you have more knowledge about those subjects than is possessed by people not invested to the same degree. That is also why I think Jon Rothstein sees more basketball games and thinks about basketball to a far greater extent than anyone on the Swarm. I don't follow the football poslls to the same degree, but I doubt you or I care as much about football, or spend the same amount of time, as they. And, with almost every game being televised and DVR'd, you don't have to travel outside your living room to see every rankable team play every weekend.
 

stinger78

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,920
I understand the criticism aimed at the polls. Especially the preseason polls. What I find odd is the indignancy aimed at the pollsters with whom we disagree. I doubt our votes, while certainly different, would more accurately reflect a ranking that deserves publication. The AP and Coaches polls are made up of people with a lot more information about the teams than any of us possess. I know, if we disagree it's because those pollsters are biased or worse. On the basketball side, Rothstein and Goodman see triple the number of games I see. And I am, at times, obsessive about basketball. Their votes would be based on a lot more knowledge of the teams tthan would mine.

I believe FSU should have been in the CFP because they won all their games and played in one of the top conferences. Texas and Alabama also played in top conferences, but they did not win all their games. I think the top teams have to lose on the field before they're eliminated from the championship playoff. Votes, even from the most knowledgeable people, should not be enough.

Now, the questionn of whether I think FSU was actually better than Bama or Texas is different. That is what the CFP selection committee said was the deciding factor. I do not think polling was a factor except that all the teams being considered were in the top group.
Speaking just for me, I'm not so indignant with pollsters as with the concept of a preseason poll and how it informs what comes after. It sets certain teams and conferences up to bulk up program standing and SOS which then feeds narratives about conferences. It's manifestly harder to win your way into the top 10 than to be granted that status in the preseason. However, once there, it is difficult to lose your way out.

Say a team like Bama would be granted a top 5 status in the preseason (preposterous though it may sound). Then suppose that team has scheduled a first-half schedule that contains only two legit teams (preposterous though it may sound). Say those teams are Texas and Ole Miss, who themselves are ranked outside the top 10, and suppose Bama loses to one but beats all the rest and starts off 6-1 having split games against its ranked opponents. How far would that team have dropped at week 8 where they were 6-1?

Well, we have an example (I jest), it's Alabama 2023, and they dropped to #11 in the AP poll and #8 in the Coaches Poll (tied with the Texas team that beat them earlier in the season, incidentally, but now with a loss as well). To Bama's credit, they won 5 games in a row after starting 1-1. However, 1-score wins over A&M and Arky were very unconvincing. Then they ripped off 4 good wins before laying a stinker at Auburn and escaping with the W, and then beating UGAg, who themselves underwhelmed most of the season against a fairly easy schedule.

But that's Bama, kind of a special case... I mean, Saban thinks they deserve the treatment they get. What about others? LSU started at #5 (finished 9-3), USC at #6 (7-5), Clemson at # 9 (8-4), Tennessee at #12 (8-4), Utah at # 14 (8-4), K State at #16 (8-4), TCU at #17 (5-7), and TAMU at #23 (7-5).

Other SECheat teams getting votes in that preseason poll? USCe (5-7) [73 votes - #27], Arkansas (4-8) [22 - #30], Kentucky (7-5) [14 - #33], Auburn (6-6) [7 - #37], MSU (5-7) and Florida (5-7) [4 - #40]. Twelve SECheat teams in all got votes in the preseason poll, yet only 6 won 8 games or more. It happens year after year.

My solution? Don't even have a poll until October 1 has passed. Then you have a chance of getting it right. However, as you and many others have said, those early polls gin up clicks and viewers for those "compelling" early season games - like TCU Colorado. Ha!
 

Root4GT

Helluva Engineer
Messages
3,348
Who’s Manny?

Of course, those who benefit from preseason rankings enjoy it. The “we” in my statement are those who resist The Narrative and how it is built. Preseason rankings are one part of the enterprise of over rating a conference.
That has always been the case and always will be the case. There is no rational reason, rational is making money in this case as it generally is, to change the preseason ranking system.

If there is monetary loss no one involved would rationally want to change what makes them money.
 

stinger78

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,920
That has always been the case and always will be the case. There is no rational reason, rational is making money in this case as it generally is, to change the preseason ranking system.

If there is monetary loss no one involved would rationally want to change what makes them money.
You know it's a funny thing. I often post about the principle of a thing, and you often respond with a status quo "that's just how it is, don't get uptight" response. I know you're a man of principle and don't question that at all. I just cannot shrug and be OK with what I perceive to be a wrong approach that leads to competitive advantage in a system that is supposed to be level. It is not within my constitution to do so. Positive change can and does happen. Granted, the bigger the pile of $$$ you're pushing against the harder it is and CFB has grown to be a huge pile of $$$.
 

Root4GT

Helluva Engineer
Messages
3,348
You know it's a funny thing. I often post about the principle of a thing, and you often respond with a status quo "that's just how it is, don't get uptight" response. I know you're a man of principle and don't question that at all. I just cannot shrug and be OK with what I perceive to be a wrong approach that leads to competitive advantage in a system that is supposed to be level. It is not within my constitution to do so. Positive change can and does happen. Granted, the bigger the pile of $$$ you're pushing against the harder it is and CFB has grown to be a huge pile of $$$.
In principle you version is a better version. In reality the money is just too great and the schools that Benefit from preseason polls are the big money schools.

If we had a magic wand I agree you approach is better. Unfortunately we have no magic wand nor is there support for a popular uprising.

The CFP “attempts” to do as you want by not releasing their first Poll until the end of October. The results of their poll are clearly biased by the preseason polls as the higher ranked teams from the preseason polls are presumed to be harder games.

Sometimes reality sucks, especially for supporters for teams like GT that do not have a National pulse.

Anyway keep fighting the good fight. Your thoughts are always interesting.
 

Jacket05

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
733
What if we got away from rankings all together and go to standings only. You could even look to the ESL model that has been brought up and have different points assigned to wins. An off the cuff example could be more points weighted for P5 wins vs G5 wins vs FCS wins. Could also have more points for a win in regulation vs one in overtime. Obviously there would be a lot to hash out but it would move away from subjective polls and move to clearly defined objective rules that would be solely focused on on-field results and competitive scheduling (i.e. the SECheat would get penalized for not scheduling OOC P5 games).
 

stinger78

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,920
What if we got away from rankings all together and go to standings only. You could even look to the ESL model that has been brought up and have different points assigned to wins. An off the cuff example could be more points weighted for P5 wins vs G5 wins vs FCS wins. Could also have more points for a win in regulation vs one in overtime. Obviously there would be a lot to hash out but it would move away from subjective polls and move to clearly defined objective rules that would be solely focused on on-field results and competitive scheduling (i.e. the SECheat would get penalized for not scheduling OOC P5 games).
Love it. Of course, ESPN posts power rankings of NFL teams - again, to gain clicks and make money - but NFL playoffs are determined by division standings, just like all pro sports. Nobody jimmies up the standings to favor certain programs. Do this, CFB, and let the polls be the media-driven dog and pony show that they are.
 

stinger78

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,920
8th game of the season and the first polls come out:
Alabama 6-2, Wake Forest 6-2, Norte Dame 6-2, and Tech 6-2. Who gets ranked the highest? I would bet both ND and Bama are at least top 15-20 and Tech and Wake are getting votes.
Again, I like the post above to take pols completely out of the equation. Make it conference champs only,
 

Richard7125

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
466
What if we got away from rankings all together and go to standings only. You could even look to the ESL model that has been brought up and have different points assigned to wins. An off the cuff example could be more points weighted for P5 wins vs G5 wins vs FCS wins. Could also have more points for a win in regulation vs one in overtime. Obviously there would be a lot to hash out but it would move away from subjective polls and move to clearly defined objective rules that would be solely focused on on-field results and competitive scheduling (i.e. the SECheat would get penalized for not scheduling OOC P5 games).
In ESL you have a balanced schedule. Everyone plays everyone else home and away. There will always be an unbalanced schedule in College football. Getting 3 points for beating Boston College should not equal 3 points for beating UGA.
 

Jacket05

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
733
In ESL you have a balanced schedule. Everyone plays everyone else home and away. There will always be an unbalanced schedule in College football. Getting 3 points for beating Boston College should not equal 3 points for beating UGA.
Why not? ugag is VIEWED this year as being a great team for beating middle of the road to terrible teams all year and even struggling often against them. So it is YOUR OPINION that they are better than Boston College. To be clear I THINK ugag is a better team than Boston College too but it is my OPINION. The idea is that with the right model the better teams would rise to the top of the standings and then be able to play each other to determine a champion. That champion would have proven on the field that they deserve to be the champion. That model would take a lot of thought and the conferences scheduling systems would probably have to be adjusted but it would be a better system than the beauty pageant we have now.
 

Root4GT

Helluva Engineer
Messages
3,348
Why not? ugag is VIEWED this year as being a great team for beating middle of the road to terrible teams all year and even struggling often against them. So it is YOUR OPINION that they are better than Boston College. To be clear I THINK ugag is a better team than Boston College too but it is my OPINION. The idea is that with the right model the better teams would rise to the top of the standings and then be able to play each other to determine a champion. That champion would have proven on the field that they deserve to be the champion. That model would take a lot of thought and the conferences scheduling systems would probably have to be adjusted but it would be a better system than the beauty pageant we have now.
Back to the question - who would the system be better for? How would college football as a whole be better? Would the general public really care or are they fine with assuming the usual suspects are always better than the TCUs, Cincinnatis and Liberties of college football.

Millions of viewers watch Ohio State vs Michigan, not just their fans.

What is your objective with such a proposal?
 

Enuratique

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
333
I love it when you are allowed to skip certain ads and go to one of those peaceful, tranquil nature screens. I think it’s because the time slots don’t quite even out between the the different ad sources/origins and this is offered in place of seeing pieces of ads.
It also measures your engagement. Can tell if you're paying attention to the commercial breaks to opt in (yes I know some play automatically, I'm talking about the ones where you can skip a whole break)
 

Richard7125

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
466
Why not? ugag is VIEWED this year as being a great team for beating middle of the road to terrible teams all year and even struggling often against them. So it is YOUR OPINION that they are better than Boston College. To be clear I THINK ugag is a better team than Boston College too but it is my OPINION. The idea is that with the right model the better teams would rise to the top of the standings and then be able to play each other to determine a champion. That champion would have proven on the field that they deserve to be the champion. That model would take a lot of thought and the conferences scheduling systems would probably have to be adjusted but it would be a better system than the beauty pageant we have now.
Yes, it is my opinion and probably 99.9% of everyone else's opinion too. If you don't think so obvious of flaw would cause more griping than what we currently have, we're just going to disagree on this. Moreover, there would be zero incentive to schedule hard OOC games. Thinking outside of the box is good, but you need to poke it with a stick to see if it's better than what we currently have.
 

MWBATL

Helluva Engineer
Messages
6,589
For me, it is a simple issue.

If they can ignore FSU when they go 13-0, then somewhere down the road, they can decide to ignore a 10-2 GT team that I want to see in the playoffs, simply because our fan base and reputation don't meet the national standards. That bothers me. The more objective we can make the selection criteria, the better chance lesser knowns like GT will have a chance someday.

I don't really care much about FSU, except for what it implies to me down the road for GT.
 

stinger78

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,920
For me, it is a simple issue.

If they can ignore FSU when they go 13-0, then somewhere down the road, they can decide to ignore a 10-2 GT team that I want to see in the playoffs, simply because our fan base and reputation don't meet the national standards. That bothers me. The more objective we can make the selection criteria, the better chance lesser knowns like GT will have a chance someday.

I don't really care much about FSU, except for what it implies to me down the road for GT.
Spot on. This is the principle of the thing. If they’ll do it to FSU they’ll do it to Tech.
 
Top