BDS Attendance

[SolicitorJacket]

I stand corrected but we were probably lucky the attendance was that good considering the really poor football during most of those years and the unbridled animosity between Pepper and the Old Guard alumni. My dad could not stand him. People do not realize the rebuilding job facing Homer Rice and Bill Curry. There was even talk of dropping football in some corners. One influential former player at the time realized just how bad things were when we played Memphis State one year and they clearly had superior athletes. Didn't help them that much as I recall we beat them anyway. Depth in those days was nonexistent. This is not to say we were completely devoid of talent. Drew Hill, ELI, Don Bessilieu, Kent Hill, Leo Tierney, David Sims, Freeman Colbert, Reggie Wilkes, and many others were fine football players but there was not nearly enough of them especially on defense.

I posted that in support of what you said about the influence of the factory programs on attendance. I have no doubt that the people who did attend were very vocal. The student body in those days was more football and sports savvy I think.

 

[Dustman]

Are we talking paid attendance, or actual attendance? Sorry, but I'm not buying the argument that we don't have attendance problems at BDS. I think we sell a lot of tickets that don't get used on gameday. No data to support this, just based on my view from the west stands.

They scan every ticket that goes through the gate so it wouldn't be hard to provide actual attendance numbers. I just don't think they want to publish that.

 

[GTRX7]

Are we talking paid attendance, or actual attendance? Sorry, but I'm not buying the argument that we don't have attendance problems at BDS. I think we sell a lot of tickets that don't get used on gameday. No data to support this, just based on my view from the west stands.

They scan every ticket that goes through the gate so it wouldn't be hard to provide actual attendance numbers. I just don't think they want to publish that.

Obviously, I try to go every single game, but sometimes we have folks in our group that can't go from time to time. I often cannot give away my extra tickets for some of the worse games. For the better games, I usually can't get even half price if I try to sell them before the game. I didn't even bother to claim my two extra Jacksonville St. tickets this year. If it comes up again in the future, is there a place on this board where I can offer them up so they don't go unused?

 

[Supersizethatorder-mutt]

Obviously, I try to go every single game, but sometimes we have folks in our group that can't go from time to time. I often cannot give away my extra tickets for some of the worse games. For the better games, I usually can't get even half price if I try to sell them before the game. I didn't even bother to claim my two extra Jacksonville St. tickets this year. If it comes up again in the future, is there a place on this board where I can offer them up so they don't go unused?

Just create a thread of your own advertising the tickets. You may or may not get takers.

 

[Sideways]

According to Wikipedia here was Tech's average attendance the last 10 years of the old and largest configuration of Grant Field (Capacity 58,121).

1976 - 43k
1977 - 44k
1978 - 34k
1979 - 38k
1980 - 35k
1981 - 38k
1982 - 36k
1983 - 37k
1984 - 43k
1985 - 40k

All those years are boosted by visits from a rotating group of old rivals like Alabama, Auburn, Clemson, Georgia, Notre Dame and Tennessee. In those games there would be a sellout or nearly one. When other teams not on that list would visit I never saw attendance past 40k. Many many games were below 30k with a low of 17k against Navy in 1981.

That game against Navy in 1981? I was one of those 17k. Sad times indeed. Tech is in another world today for sure.

 

[Vespidae]

Are we talking paid attendance, or actual attendance? Sorry, but I'm not buying the argument that we don't have attendance problems at BDS. I think we sell a lot of tickets that don't get used on gameday. No data to support this, just based on my view from the west stands.

They scan every ticket that goes through the gate so it wouldn't be hard to provide actual attendance numbers. I just don't think they want to publish that.

We're talking actual attendance. I'm not debating the "number" of fans attending, but rather, that our numbers are very stable. In fact, given other factors which I will share tomorrow .. you could argue that Tech is punching above its weight in attendance.

 

[Dustman]

Obviously, I try to go every single game, but sometimes we have folks in our group that can't go from time to time. I often cannot give away my extra tickets for some of the worse games. For the better games, I usually can't get even half price if I try to sell them before the game. I didn't even bother to claim my two extra Jacksonville St. tickets this year. If it comes up again in the future, is there a place on this board where I can offer them up so they don't go unused?

Let me rephrase that. I think we sell a lot of tickets that only get used for big games. I bet most of the season ticket holders on here know the spots around them that are either empty or used by fans of other teams. It wasn't my intention to throw stones at the true fans on this board. I just wish there were about 10k more of us so we could fill up BDS for every game.

 

[Dustman]

We're talking actual attendance. I'm not debating the "number" of fans attending, but rather, that our numbers are very stable. In fact, given other factors which I will share tomorrow .. you could argue that Tech is punching above its weight in attendance.

I agree the numbers are stable. I'm just frustrated that we can't move the needle. BDS is a special place and there's nothing else like it when the crowd is rocking. Pitt is a big game for us this weekend, but I will be staring at a bunch of empty seats 5 minutes before kickoff, and I know the players see that too.

 

[Vespidae]

OK, in today's installment we look at what factors drive college attendance. Recall that Tech is averaging 49K fans per game and is statistically neutral for the period 2005-2014 and compares favorably to the ACC and better than almost all other conferences which are losing fans.

So, what drives college football attendance? A recent analysis summarizes these factors as the most important in determining how many fans turn out for a game:

1. Sustained winning. Teams that come off a winning season have, on average 8% more attendance, than those that don't.
2. Major football programs. Major football programs draw more than smaller programs(think FBS vs. FCS) with the most likely reason for the disparity being the tradition of FBS schools and their opponents. (Playing quality opponents and traditional rivalries matter.)
3. Large undergraduate populations. Not only do larger populations matter, but so does the significance of the school relative to its immediate surrounding. The average NCAA student to citizen ratio is 56.6 and schools below this figure draw higher; schools lower draw fewer fans. (Think of where SEC schools are located.)
4. Large city populations and presence of pro teams. Big cities hurt attendance. The performance was worse in the biggest of cities (4 million+) whose colleges outperformed their competitors on the field – 58% winning pct. – but similarly only drew 40,000 fans. If you're in a city with multiple pro teams ... look for low attendance regardless of how many games you win.
5. Private schools draw less than public schools. Mostly due to where they are located (usually in cities) and where their students come from (nationally vs. locally). I wonder if Tech is still perceived as a private school (it was once).

All in all, this is consistent with what I heard from older Tech alumni ... everything was great until ... Bobby Dodd pulled us out of the SEC (major football programs an opponents draw better), the Falcons/Hawks/Braves showed up ... and Atlanta grew big time. From the data I have scanned (but not analyzed), it seems that Tech is doing well drawing 50K fans to a game consistently ... and far better than most.

Moral for more attendance: Win consistently (8+ games), play good opponents - especially those with historical rivalries, and endear yourself to the local community.

V

 

[MWBATL]

Two points about the items mentioned in this thread.....

1. just happened to notice that last night's Atlanta United game at MB Stadium was NOT a sellout with about 43,000 tickets sold. Just saying'......
2. I have long felt that GT attendance pushes above its weight class. UGa has 3 x as many alumni in Georgia as GT does....3 x the number...ergo their attendance should be 3 x ours....yet we draw nearly half their attendance. They do sell out and arguably could sell more tickets, but they'd need to average 150,000 to match our attendance to alumni ratio. The same holds true for the vast majority of football factories around. Simply put, we are a much smaller school than the vast majority of P5 schools in the south, and thus have the attendance that tracks with that.

 

[B Lifsey]

Two points about the items mentioned in this thread.....

1. just happened to notice that last night's Atlanta United game at MB Stadium was NOT a sellout with about 43,000 tickets sold. Just saying'......
2. I have long felt that GT attendance pushes above its weight class. UGa has 3 x as many alumni in Georgia as GT does....3 x the number...ergo their attendance should be 3 x ours....yet we draw nearly half their attendance. They do sell out and arguably could sell more tickets, but they'd need to average 150,000 to match our attendance to alumni ratio. The same holds true for the vast majority of football factories around. Simply put, we are a much smaller school than the vast majority of P5 schools in the south, and thus have the attendance that tracks with that.

On point #2, UGA has so many Walmart fans that I'm not sure a ratio of alumni to tickets is valid. Perhaps number tickets to number Walmart shirts sold. Or, maybe tickets to cases of PBR/Natty Light consumed in state.

 

[DH9387]

On point #2, UGA has so many Walmart fans that I'm not sure a ratio of alumni to tickets is valid. Perhaps number tickets to number Walmart shirts sold. Or, maybe tickets to cases of PBR/Natty Light consumed in state.

You make a great point about sidewalk fans. There seems to be this misconception among Tech fans that we are this tiny school in the middle of a sea of massive land-grant universities when in fact we are pretty much on par with our regional neighbors. Just a random sampling:

GT: 26,839 (2016)
ugag: 36,130 (2015)
Clemson: 23,406 (2016)
Auburn: 28,290 (2016)
Alabama: 38, 563 (?)
Tennessee: 28,052 (2016)
South Carolina: 34,618 (?)
North Carolina: 29,469 (2016)
Virginia: 22,391 (?)
Virginia Tech: 31,090 (?)
Mississippi: 24,250 (2016)
Mississippi State: 21,884 (?)
Louisville: 22,640 (2016)

I am aware that our enrollment has really grown in the last 10-20 years and that we still need to account for total living alumni, but it really looks like our alumni and students do a pretty darn good job showing up for the games and that the missing link is all the sidewalk fans that we spent the better part of 40 years alienating and just recently seemed to realize that we need to embrace them to grow the fan base.

 

[GTNavyNuke]

We're talking actual attendance. I'm not debating the "number" of fans attending, but rather, that our numbers are very stable. In fact, given other factors which I will share tomorrow .. you could argue that Tech is punching above its weight in attendance.

Do you have the average for the years UGAg was at BDS and the average for the years they weren't? I'd expect at least a 2K difference in the average........ (6 games @ home *2000 attendance =12,000 more than the alternate) ....... I know we had two years away from BDS with UGAg .......

Good thread!

 

[Vespidae]

... the missing link is all the sidewalk fans that we spent the better part of 40 years alienating and just recently seemed to realize that we need to embrace them to grow the fan base.

Probably true. But I'm less inclined now to use words like "alienating". It makes it sound like Tech actively drove them away. I think Petit let the sports programs rot and clearly that affected the ability to put out a competitive product. But the other factors (arrival of pro sports, urban location, etc) are harder to deal with.

I think it's highly unlikely we'll see a sustained attendance of 60K (which would be friggin' awesome) without winning 9+ games on a regular basis and playing better quality opponents for which their is a strong historical tie. That's why I continue to advocate playing Auburn and Tennessee (or any SEC school for that matter) over Georgia University of Lower Lumpkin County.

The good news is that Tech is punching above its weight. And now that I'm better informed, feel pretty good about it.

 

[Vespidae]

Do you have the average for the years UGAg was at BDS and the average for the years they weren't? I'd expect at least a 2K difference in the average........ (6 games @ home *2000 attendance =12,000 more than the alternate) ....... I know we had two years away from BDS with UGAg .......

Good thread!

Yes. I have all of that data. In general (and by comparison to benchmarks and trends), Tech is doing pretty well in attendance. Especially when you consider the headwinds.

I wonder if I should write up some talking points to share with friends?

 

[33jacket]

You make a great point about sidewalk fans. There seems to be this misconception among Tech fans that we are this tiny school in the middle of a sea of massive land-grant universities when in fact we are pretty much on par with our regional neighbors. Just a random sampling:

GT: 26,839 (2016)
ugag: 36,130 (2015)
Clemson: 23,406 (2016)
Auburn: 28,290 (2016)
Alabama: 38, 563 (?)
Tennessee: 28,052 (2016)
South Carolina: 34,618 (?)
North Carolina: 29,469 (2016)
Virginia: 22,391 (?)
Virginia Tech: 31,090 (?)
Mississippi: 24,250 (2016)
Mississippi State: 21,884 (?)
Louisville: 22,640 (2016)

I am aware that our enrollment has really grown in the last 10-20 years and that we still need to account for total living alumni, but it really looks like our alumni and students do a pretty darn good job showing up for the games and that the missing link is all the sidewalk fans that we spent the better part of 40 years alienating and just recently seemed to realize that we need to embrace them to grow the fan base.

GT has 15,000 undergraduate

the 11,000 post graduate in that number above; many are remote, not even on campus, or part of MBA program at night while professionally employed and remote as well.

Graduate students, often, and most times, loyalty resides with their undergrad school, or they are here for research only.

As an example. Virginia Tech Undergrad is 25,000; nearly double ours. Yet, only 6,000 graduate.

You will find similar ratios at UT, 23,000 undergrad, 6,000 grad

Alabama, 33,000 undergrad. Again only 5k or so Grad

GT is nearly 50% graduate students, many remote.

While we are not as small as we once were. The numbers are a bit fakenews. In 2000, our undergrad was around 12,000. Our graduate enrollment in 2000 was 3,000 or so.

You do the math to see which direction this school has gone... The actual undergrad on campus students haven't gone up nearly as much....

we are still, not the size of these other schools.

With that said. Last time I was given the numbers we had around 50,000 living alumni in the Atlanta area. Nobody buys 1 season ticket. If just 1/3 of our alumni bought 2 season tickets, we would sell 33,000 just to alumni. We have believe it or not around 8000 sidewalk fan season tickets. This would be 41,000 true season tickets. Add in 8000 for students and 5000 for visitors and bam, we sell out every game or close to it.

GT's issue isn't numbers. Its the PROFILE of the alumni. Dorks, generally, don't care about sports; we have alot of dorks. Its just a fact. Never gonna cure it. Everyone has their own interests. The profile of our student is such, that sports, never hit that nerve....

 

[Vespidae]

GT's issue isn't numbers. Its the PROFILE of the alumni. Dorks, generally, don't care about sports; we have alot of dorks. Its just a fact. Never gonna cure it. Everyone has their own interests. The profile of our student is such, that sports, never hit that nerve....

I have to disagree. Tech's numbers - compared to benchmarks and it's historical trend - suggest that it is actually doing better, probably 20% better - in attendance than it should. Also, the collegiate licensing programs (the last time I checked) suggest that Tech buys far more merchandising per person than other schools. (Total volume is lower, but items sold per person is among the highest.)

So, even with dorks, urban setting, remote teaching, Chinese students, etc ... we're doing ok. And by the way ... Bobby Dodd said the same thing in 1966.

I think we have to stop beating ourselves up over attendance. It all comes down to winning games on a regular basis, playing quality opponents that fans want to see, and engaging the local community.

 

[stech81]

That game against Navy in 1981? I was one of those 17k. Sad times indeed. Tech is in another world today for sure.

I was also but you could sit anywhere you wanted . Beer helped me in the 1981 season.

 

[YJMD]

Tech does not really attract sidewalk fans. That's something that can change, I think. Certainly the media does us no favors. They give us attention proportional to our results on a given year, but there is little more than surface excitement for the program. TV announcers, radio hosts, etc. churn out the same tired statements each game and each year, and often serve as back-handed complements. A recognition of the program needs to extend beyond results and beyond the established alumni/fanbase. We have so much to offer in the quality of our academics, the history of the program, and particularly the integrity with our athletic operations, but these values are not communicated to the public. We need people to be interested in us for who we are, not what we do.

 

[GTRX7]

1. just happened to notice that last night's Atlanta United game at MB Stadium was NOT a sellout with about 43,000 tickets sold. Just saying'......

FYI, 43k is a sellout. As previously mentioned, the soccer configuration at MBS is limited to 43k for most games by partitioning off the upper decks. They don't sell more tickets than that even if they can. That was by design before the stadium ever opened. Which I think is smart. Again, I would rather have 43k sold out than 55k with 20k empty seats. (Picture of soccer setup below.)

Honestly not sure how they keep selling out 43k. That was their fourth home game in the last eleven days (with two more home games in the next seven coming up).