Attrition and Scholarship Limits

[LibertyTurns]

In my house my wife does , is that not the same for y'all?

My wife has her assignments. The rest belongs to me. Life is a lot more orderly when roles and responsibilities are clearly defined. Keep them away from the damn tv.

 

[AE 87]

Okay, I'd like to clarify some terms, as I understand them, because I think the discussion got sidetracked along the way, iiuc.

First of all "Processing" does not refer to situations where the S-A makes the decision to leave on his own. So, it doesn't refer to coaches having frank conversations with players about where they stand in the pecking-order and the likelihood of future playing time with the expectation that some may choose to move on. It also does not refer to guys who decide that the academic rigor or particular major is not worth their time and decide to move on. I would call these free-choice departures by the S-A's to be "natural attrition."

Secondly, "Processing" does not refer to S-A's being kicked off the team for rules violations etc.

IIuc, "Processing" refers to coaches removing players from the team in order to make room for new players who will hopefully be better. Telling a kid that if he wants to stay at the school, he has to take a "medical" scholarship, giving up workouts, practices etc with the team, would be a form of processing even if the kid technically chooses to leave.

Now, obviously, there is no way to tell simply from the statistics whether SA's are departing because of their own choice or because S.A's were processed. However, here are some numbers that might help.

Schools are allowed 85 scholarships at a time. If every kid took a Redshirt year, then 85/5 would be 17 SA's/year. If no kid took a RS year, then 85/4 would mean a little more than 21/year. So, it seems to me that 19/year is a reasonable baseline to start with, before considering any "natural" attrition.

Now over the last 10 years (2010-2019) based on Rivals database, the average # of recruits signed each year for selected schools were as follows:
Alabama 25.1
Clemson 22.4
GT 20.5
Michigan 23.3
u[sic]ga 24.4

Now, what I think should jump out at you is that GT is well within what we'd expect to see with only natural attrition while suggesting that Bama and georgie are begins to strain credulity.

The problem with "Processing" and "Recruiting" is if the recruiter is telling a mom or dad about the 40-year decision and the value of the GT degree, but then the coach is going to throw the kid overboard after 2 years because kid's best isn't good enough.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

Okay, I'd like to clarify some terms, as I understand them, because I think the discussion got sidetracked along the way, iiuc.

First of all "Processing" does not refer to situations where the S-A makes the decision to leave on his own. So, it doesn't refer to coaches having frank conversations with players about where they stand in the pecking-order and the likelihood of future playing time with the expectation that some may choose to move on. It also does not refer to guys who decide that the academic rigor or particular major is not worth their time and decide to move on. I would call these free-choice departures by the S-A's to be "natural attrition."

Secondly, "Processing" does not refer to S-A's being kicked off the team for rules violations etc.

IIuc, "Processing" refers to coaches removing players from the team in order to make room for new players who will hopefully be better. Telling a kid that if he wants to stay at the school, he has to take a "medical" scholarship, giving up workouts, practices etc with the team, would be a form of processing even if the kid technically chooses to leave.

Now, obviously, there is no way to tell simply from the statistics whether SA's are departing because of their own choice or because S.A's were processed. However, here are some numbers that might help.

Schools are allowed 85 scholarships at a time. If every kid took a Redshirt year, then 85/5 would be 17 SA's/year. If no kid took a RS year, then 85/4 would mean a little more than 21/year. So, it seems to me that 19/year is a reasonable baseline to start with, before considering any "natural" attrition.

Now over the last 10 years (2010-2019) based on Rivals database, the average # of recruits signed each year for selected schools were as follows:
Alabama 25.1
Clemson 22.4
GT 20.5
Michigan 23.3
u[sic]ga 24.4

Now, what I think should jump out at you is that GT is well within what we'd expect to see with only natural attrition while suggesting that Bama and georgie are begins to strain credulity.

The problem with "Processing" and "Recruiting" is if the recruiter is telling a mom or dad about the 40-year decision and the value of the GT degree, but then the coach is going to throw the kid overboard after 2 years because kid's best isn't good enough.

There is also the natural attrition of leaving early for the NFL. We don’t have to worry about that but Bama, Clemson and UGA do. This might account for some of those high numbers in recruiting classes, but not all of it.

 

[Milwaukee]

Okay, I'd like to clarify some terms, as I understand them, because I think the discussion got sidetracked along the way, iiuc.

First of all "Processing" does not refer to situations where the S-A makes the decision to leave on his own. So, it doesn't refer to coaches having frank conversations with players about where they stand in the pecking-order and the likelihood of future playing time with the expectation that some may choose to move on. It also does not refer to guys who decide that the academic rigor or particular major is not worth their time and decide to move on. I would call these free-choice departures by the S-A's to be "natural attrition."

Secondly, "Processing" does not refer to S-A's being kicked off the team for rules violations etc.

IIuc, "Processing" refers to coaches removing players from the team in order to make room for new players who will hopefully be better. Telling a kid that if he wants to stay at the school, he has to take a "medical" scholarship, giving up workouts, practices etc with the team, would be a form of processing even if the kid technically chooses to leave.

Now, obviously, there is no way to tell simply from the statistics whether SA's are departing because of their own choice or because S.A's were processed. However, here are some numbers that might help.

Schools are allowed 85 scholarships at a time. If every kid took a Redshirt year, then 85/5 would be 17 SA's/year. If no kid took a RS year, then 85/4 would mean a little more than 21/year. So, it seems to me that 19/year is a reasonable baseline to start with, before considering any "natural" attrition.

Now over the last 10 years (2010-2019) based on Rivals database, the average # of recruits signed each year for selected schools were as follows:
Alabama 25.1
Clemson 22.4
GT 20.5
Michigan 23.3
u[sic]ga 24.4

Now, what I think should jump out at you is that GT is well within what we'd expect to see with only natural attrition while suggesting that Bama and georgie are begins to strain credulity.

The problem with "Processing" and "Recruiting" is if the recruiter is telling a mom or dad about the 40-year decision and the value of the GT degree, but then the coach is going to throw the kid overboard after 2 years because kid's best isn't good enough.

"Processing" is in fact a coach telling a player where they stand until the player leaves on his own. That is processing, aka nudging them out. A coach is never gonna kick a kid off the team and say "Get Outta Here" lol.

It's a dirty game you just need to accept even if you don't like it.

I'm here to help.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

"Processing" is in fact a coach telling a player where they stand until the player leaves on his own. That is processing, aka nudging them out. A coach is never gonna kick a kid off the team and say "Get Outta Here" lol.

It's a dirty game you just need to accept even if you don't like it.

I'm here to help.

Your actually incorrect in your personal definition but I’m not entirely sure how to help....

https://www.tigerdroppings.com/rant...-processed-mean-in-recruiting-terms/55159307/

https://247sports.com/college/flori...larship-from-former-walk-ons-at-UF-120941305/

https://usatodayhss.com/2017/a-scholarship-offer-is-not-a-guarantee-so-what-is-it

https://www.ncsasports.org/recruiting/how-to-get-recruited/scholarship-facts

I’m not aware of any Tech coaches pulling ships due to a lack of “performance.” But even the NCAA says it can happen. If any Tech coach has done this, like Mcelwain seems to have, they will lose an awful lot of any respect I have for them.

 

[A Love Supreme]

Your actually incorrect in your personal definition but I’m not entirely sure how to help....

https://www.tigerdroppings.com/rant...-processed-mean-in-recruiting-terms/55159307/

https://247sports.com/college/flori...larship-from-former-walk-ons-at-UF-120941305/

https://usatodayhss.com/2017/a-scholarship-offer-is-not-a-guarantee-so-what-is-it

https://www.ncsasports.org/recruiting/how-to-get-recruited/scholarship-facts

I’m not aware of any Tech coaches pulling ships due to a lack of “performance.” But even the NCAA says it can happen. If any Tech coach has done this, like Mcelwain seems to have, they will lose an awful lot of any respect I have for them.

I have an awful lot of disrespect for the NCAA for allowing this to go on.

 

[iceeater1969]

Okay, I'd like to clarify some terms, as I understand them, because I think the discussion got sidetracked along the way, iiuc.

First of all "Processing" does not refer to situations where the S-A makes the decision to leave on his own. So, it doesn't refer to coaches having frank conversations with players about where they stand in the pecking-order and the likelihood of future playing time with the expectation that some may choose to move on. It also does not refer to guys who decide that the academic rigor or particular major is not worth their time and decide to move on. I would call these free-choice departures by the S-A's to be "natural attrition."

Secondly, "Processing" does not refer to S-A's being kicked off the team for rules violations etc.

IIuc, "Processing" refers to coaches removing players from the team in order to make room for new players who will hopefully be better. Telling a kid that if he wants to stay at the school, he has to take a "medical" scholarship, giving up workouts, practices etc with the team, would be a form of processing even if the kid technically chooses to leave.

Now, obviously, there is no way to tell simply from the statistics whether SA's are departing because of their own choice or because S.A's were processed. However, here are some numbers that might help.

Schools are allowed 85 scholarships at a time. If every kid took a Redshirt year, then 85/5 would be 17 SA's/year. If no kid took a RS year, then 85/4 would mean a little more than 21/year. So, it seems to me that 19/year is a reasonable baseline to start with, before considering any "natural" attrition.

Now over the last 10 years (2010-2019) based on Rivals database, the average # of recruits signed each year for selected schools were as follows:
Alabama 25.1
Clemson 22.4
GT 20.5
Michigan 23.3
u[sic]ga 24.4

Now, what I think should jump out at you is that GT is well within what we'd expect to see with only natural attrition while suggesting that Bama and georgie are begins to strain credulity.

The problem with "Processing" and "Recruiting" is if the recruiter is telling a mom or dad about the 40-year decision and the value of the GT degree, but then the coach is going to throw the kid overboard after 2 years because kid's best isn't good enough.

I see u compare gt to the super factory programs but what about programs closer to our academics? A few months ago when I was on my rage about Duke, I did a quick compare and Stanford and Duke w gt saw the same 20 is average. We had very small classes then larger classes compared to Stanford s which iirc seemed steady.

If I could interject an alternate to the throw them out scenario. Perhaps like in business u have at least yearly reviews on status and specific areas where improvement.
1. A possible middle plan for a slower developing but promising player could gt coaches suggest the player be put on r shirt sr plan - he says yes then he does extra football prep while taking a slightly less academic load. I really like 5 th year ol men.

2. For the guy that is behind ( attitude counts too) and is unlikely to catch up (injury over but not fully recoverable) and is close to graduating, could he be asked to double up academically w less football time and grad early.

When these alternates are offered, some guys will say ok and others will transfer.

COACH PAUL JOHNSON
2016 and 2017 we had 26 players who attrited. Of these 13 tranfered or quit. 5 graduated, and 5 violated rules , and 2 or 3 were medical .

In 2 years of we lost (26/40) 60% of 2 years classes. I will have to say that figure surprised me.

I am not accusing coach of processing. Things happen like bad academic support system , guys don't devlope, new DC, that creates transition by players.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

I see u compare gt to the super factory programs but what about programs closer to our academics? A few months ago when I was on my rage about Duke, I did a quick compare and Stanford and Duke w gt saw the same 20 is average. We had very small classes then larger classes compared to Stanford s which iirc seemed steady.

If I could interject an alternate to the throw them out scenario. Perhaps like in business u have at least yearly reviews on status and specific areas where improvement.
1. A possible middle plan for a slower developing but promising player could gt coaches suggest the player be put on r shirt sr plan - he says yes then he does extra football prep while taking a slightly less academic load. I really like 5 th year ol men.

2. For the guy that is behind ( attitude counts too) and is unlikely to catch up (injury over but not fully recoverable) and is close to graduating, could he be asked to double up academically w less football time and grad early.

When these alternates are offered, some guys will say ok and others will transfer.

COACH PAUL JOHNSON
2016 and 2017 we had 26 players who attrited. Of these 13 tranfered or quit. 5 graduated, and 5 violated rules , and 2 or 3 were medical .

In 2 years of we lost (26/40) 60% of 2 years classes. I will have to say that figure surprised me.

I am not accusing coach of processing. Things happen like bad academic support system , guys don't devlope, new DC, that creates transition by players.

Graduates should not count in your numbers. Unless they go play at another school but even then it is recommended to change schools for grad degrees.

 

[Milwaukee]

Your actually incorrect in your personal definition but I’m not entirely sure how to help....

https://www.tigerdroppings.com/rant...-processed-mean-in-recruiting-terms/55159307/

https://247sports.com/college/flori...larship-from-former-walk-ons-at-UF-120941305/

https://usatodayhss.com/2017/a-scholarship-offer-is-not-a-guarantee-so-what-is-it

https://www.ncsasports.org/recruiting/how-to-get-recruited/scholarship-facts

I’m not aware of any Tech coaches pulling ships due to a lack of “performance.” But even the NCAA says it can happen. If any Tech coach has done this, like Mcelwain seems to have, they will lose an awful lot of any respect I have for them.

Lol GT coaches have done this. We've had players even say so. And yes we know you don't agree with it. But D1 football at GT is a business. If this is shocking to anyone then I have to think that person is just a very naive person.

I think a couple people should re read this entire thread as time consuming as it may be. We are recycling the same conversation over and over.

We process players, or whatever term you'd like to use, at Tech and have been for the past 30 years like every other school in the nation. The end.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

processing = cutting.

Not sure why the term "cutting" is such a dirty word in college sports. It is routinely used in middle school, high school and pro sports. All three levels basically have tryouts at the beginning of each season and players must reprove their worth to the team. It's even completely allowed within the rules and contracts of the scholarship as they are only written for one year. So why is it absent from college sports, yet prevalent on all other levels?

 

[RonJohn]

Lol GT coaches have done this. We've had players even say so. And yes we know you don't agree with it. But D1 football at GT is a business. If this is shocking to anyone then I have to think that person is just a very naive person.

I think a couple people should re read this entire thread as time consuming as it may be. We are recycling the same conversation over and over.

We process players, or whatever term you'd like to use, at Tech and have been for the past 30 years like every other school in the nation. The end.

Which players exactly have said that?

There are players from Alabama on the record saying that they had no medical issues, but were told that they were being moved to "medical" scholarships. The links provided had players from Florida who were on scholarship and received a "renewal" notice that said their scholarship amount was now $0. You say that GT does this also, so please provide names to correspond to your claims.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

processing = cutting.

Not sure why the term "cutting" is such a dirty word in college sports. It is routinely used in middle school, high school and pro sports. All three levels basically have tryouts at the beginning of each season and players must reprove their worth to the team. It's even completely allowed within the rules and contracts of the scholarship as they are only written for one year. So why is it absent from college sports, yet prevalent on all other levels?

I mean, its a completely different thing. Its completely obvious to me.

In middle and high school, you're going to school regardless. The better people make the team. There is no scholarship, nor one required. Pro sports you're being paid, its like having a job - you can quit or be fired (pending contract terms) at will.

I'm honestly surprised you wouldn't see the stark difference in these scenarios. These are STUDENT-ATHLETES. We OFFERED THEM and RECRUITED THEM to come here. Do you know how disruptive it is to cut someone and make them pay their own way (especially out of state) for what could amount to six figures of money for the rest of their time in school? Just to name 1 thing.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

I mean, its a completely different thing. Its completely obvious to me.

In middle and high school, you're going to school regardless. The better people make the team. There is no scholarship, nor one required. Pro sports you're being paid, its like having a job - you can quit or be fired (pending contract terms) at will.

I'm honestly surprised you wouldn't see the stark difference in these scenarios. These are STUDENT-ATHLETES. We OFFERED THEM and RECRUITED THEM to come here. Do you know how disruptive it is to cut someone and make them pay their own way (especially out of state) for what could amount to six figures of money for the rest of their time in school? Just to name 1 thing.

Then why the 1 year scholarship term if not for yearly reevaluation? Why call it processing when another term that aptly describes it was already part of the lexicon? It's the same thing imo.

 

[iceeater1969]

Graduates should not count in your numbers. Unless they go play at another school but even then it is recommended to change schools for grad degrees.

Wow, Ae87 w as always complete logical well structured comparison and then this.

Who is Klock and what is his readily available about his history. Came and red shirted first year. Played as r fr and r soph. Then Graduated in next year w 2 years eligibility left ( hint I call that attrition) . He and position coach had issues - he had some injuries and he was very close to getting a degree . He finished in 3 years = graduated. If u want to be kind to sewak feel free.
Matthew Jordan was dinged up in spring so he went ahead and graduated w masters iirc in logistics part of engineering - 2 years eligibility left. They could have stayed like A marshall and fought thru coaching and or injury issues to contribute as r sr.

Grad w out eligibility

Transfer w out degree and go to football some where else remaining eligibility

Quit and have no real plans also wasted eligibility.


In 16 17 had 26 gt football players w eligibility remaining leave gt.

So far cgc has 1 leave.

If morgans( 1 already graduated ) stay and contribute - he deserves a metal for reversing that course.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

Then why the 1 year scholarship term if not for yearly reevaluation? Why call it processing when another term that aptly describes it was already part of the lexicon? It's the same thing imo.

I didn't say the year-by-year scholarship was bad or did not allow for yearly re-evaluation. That's not really the conversation. We're talking about why involuntarily (against a player's will who is in good standing) cutting people is bad.

If you have a player who gets arrested or commits a crime or exhibits behavior damaging to the team, you are allowed to dismiss them from the team and aren't required to pay for the entire degree from the school. I don't see any problem with that. I doubt many people do.

 

[RonJohn]

processing = cutting.

Not sure why the term "cutting" is such a dirty word in college sports. It is routinely used in middle school, high school and pro sports. All three levels basically have tryouts at the beginning of each season and players must reprove their worth to the team. It's even completely allowed within the rules and contracts of the scholarship as they are only written for one year. So why is it absent from college sports, yet prevalent on all other levels?

In middle school and high school a player getting cut usually means that he wasn't physically able to compete before the season started(Summer practice, or tryouts). Those kids are still in school and have whatever means of funding that they had before, public funds or parents paying for private school. Professional players can immediately go to another team if they are cut and have the physical ability to play for another team. College is usually a four or five year commitment(referring to college, not college athletics). Changing schools takes a toll on the academic process unless it is planned well. NCAA rules prevent SAs from changing schools easily. It seems very hypocritical to me for the NCAA to have impediments to a SA transferring yet basically no impediment from a school forcing a SA to transfer. Even if a school forces a SA to transfer, the SA still has the NCAA impediments plus the academic hurdles involved. Also, the fans look at "processing" and "transferring" differently. If a SA is "processed" then the fans are happy and all of the "time, effort, and money" spent on that SA is irrelevant. If a top performing SA transfers to another school(say for an opportunity to play for a MNC), he is a disloyal traitor who the school spent so much "time, effort, and money" that he should be forced to stay at that school. Many athletic programs and fans are so hypocritical with respect to SAs that it is laughable.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

Wow, Ae87 w as always complete logical well structured comparison and then this.

Who is Klock and what is his readily available about his history. Came and red shirted first year. Played as r fr and r soph. Then Graduated in next year w 2 years eligibility left ( hint I call that attrition) . He and position coach had issues - he had some injuries and he was very close to getting a degree . He finished in 3 years = graduated. If u want to be kind to sewak feel free.
Matthew Jordan was dinged up in spring so he went ahead and graduated w masters iirc in logistics part of engineering - 2 years eligibility left. They could have stayed like A marshall and fought thru coaching and or injury issues to contribute as r sr.

Grad w out eligibility

Transfer w out degree and go to football some where else remaining eligibility

Quit and have no real plans also wasted eligibility.


In 16 17 had 26 gt football players w eligibility remaining leave gt.

So far cgc has 1 leave.

If morgans( 1 already graduated ) stay and contribute - he deserves a metal for reversing that course.

Attrition has negative connotations connected to it. "leaving with eligibility remaining"... it that's the all encompassing definition then fine, use it. But it changes the meaning. Maybe "bad" attrition and "good" attrition should be distinguished and separate. A kid with eligibility remaining graduating and moving on to better his life/situation is perfectly fine in my book. Heck, if we are totally fine with "processing" kids with eligibility remaining who have graduated who aren't contributing, we should be fine with the opposite.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

In middle school and high school a player getting cut usually means that he wasn't physically able to compete before the season started(Summer practice, or tryouts). Those kids are still in school and have whatever means of funding that they had before, public funds or parents paying for private school. Professional players can immediately go to another team if they are cut and have the physical ability to play for another team. College is usually a four or five year commitment(referring to college, not college athletics). Changing schools takes a toll on the academic process unless it is planned well. NCAA rules prevent SAs from changing schools easily. It seems very hypocritical to me for the NCAA to have impediments to a SA transferring yet basically no impediment from a school forcing a SA to transfer. Even if a school forces a SA to transfer, the SA still has the NCAA impediments plus the academic hurdles involved. Also, the fans look at "processing" and "transferring" differently. If a SA is "processed" then the fans are happy and all of the "time, effort, and money" spent on that SA is irrelevant. If a top performing SA transfers to another school(say for an opportunity to play for a MNC, he is a disloyal traitor who the school spent so much "time, effort, and money" that he should be forced to stay at that school. Many athletic programs and fans are so hypocritical with respect to SAs that it is laughable.

Scholarships should be 4 years and we wouldn't be talking about processing.

 

[RonJohn]

Matthew Jordan was dinged up in spring so he went ahead and graduated w masters iirc in logistics part of engineering - 2 years eligibility left. They could have stayed like A marshall and fought thru coaching and or injury issues to contribute as r sr.

Jordan only had 1 year remaining. He had injured the same foot twice. If I remember correctly, he said something like he wanted to be able to walk with his grandkids(future obviously) one day. He graduated and stopped playing football for personal reasons. I can't see any issue with that.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

If you have a player who gets arrested or commits a crime or exhibits behavior damaging to the team, you are allowed to dismiss them from the team and aren't required to pay for the entire degree from the school. I don't see any problem with that. I doubt many people do.

This statement has no relevance. All types of scholarships are conditional on the things you mentioned. I was on ROTC scholarship and had to maintain a 2.0 GPA or I lost it. I also had to keep my nose clean with the law and the hill. I was worried about drinking because I was underage and afraid any small citation would cause me to lose my scholly.