Attrition and Scholarship Limits

[GTRambler]

“To be or not to be, that is the question.” — William Shakespeare

LOL

 

[bobongo]

I'm still on the fence on this study need someone to push me over one way or the other.

View attachment 5557

Oh, I dunno. You're exhibiting some amazing dexterity there. You have to be squirrely in order to see both sides of the fence.

 

[GoldZ]

nobody's degree will decrease in value if our football team gets better from a few relaxed recruits. Nor will our academic rankings plummet due to that. Thinking otherwise is laughable.

My diploma survived Kenny Anderson and Stephon Marbury on campus. So did all of yours.

KEY word............"few". I've been harping here and elsewhere forever about the need to recruit more "exceptions" (to TECH's AA stds--not the ncaa). However, those here wanting to be like Bama, AU, ugag, etc. are either johnny come latelys or have never understood the uniqueness of GT football. If someone doesn't care for said uniqueness, they can pull for the sec. When we have 30-40 players on medical and/or guys who read at a third grade level, I will swear off one of the truly great loves of my 68 years of life, and eventually die heartbroken.

You don't have to be pure as the driven snow, to refuse to crossover the line to be a pathetic POS cheater like the PED slugs.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

Like I said. We will have to agree to disagree since I think there’s little integrity holding the athletes hostage to a corrupt system. You’re also operating under a false premise that I’m suggesting not honoring our educational commitment to the athletes. We don’t guarantee they will play. So making sure they have a scholarship to finish their degree is honoring our agreement with them. But you keep to your guns about how it’s best to screw GT and/or the athletes. I am politely disagreeing with you and have spent more time than your argument warrants. I’m all for the athletes and GT. Have a good day.


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Putting an athlete on a "medical" scholarship just because they won't play is dishonest. Honoring the commitment we made to them is not in any way holding them hostage to a corrupt system. They have the absolute right to leave/transfer at will. My contention is that we honor our commitment to them in a manner that is aboveboard and honest.

 

[smokey_wasp]

KEY word............"few". I've been harping here and elsewhere forever about the need to recruit more "exceptions" (to TECH's AA stds--not the ncaa). However, those here wanting to be like Bama, AU, ugag, etc. are either johnny come latelys or have never understood the uniqueness of GT football. If someone doesn't care for said uniqueness, they can pull for the sec. When we have 30-40 players on medical and/or guys who read at a third grade level, I will swear off one of the truly great loves of my 68 years of life, and eventually die heartbroken.

You don't have to be pure as the driven snow, to refuse to crossover the line to be a pathetic POS cheater like the PED slugs.

Ya'll gotta calm down. Not handicapping ourselves is not going to mean going full factory. Collins wouldn't be using elite academics as a selling point if that was his plan. Just let it play out.

 

[BCJacket]

He may be but according to some we’re over the limit. Somebody’s got to go and if there’s no volunteers I’m not sure how you deal with that other than the Alabama plan.

I'm not sure either. But everything I've seen from Coach Collins so far gives me confidence that whatever the solution is will be respectful, honest and "above the line". He'll have to figure out how to make the numbers work, which might not be easy, but that's why he's paid $x millions. It probably starts with hard honesty about where a player stands and what are his prospects for playing.

His whole plan is built around recruiting, building relationships and trust. I doubt he's going to screw a player over. Because tomorrow, he's going to have to tell the next player's Mama how he's going to care for her son.

Bama's program plan is NC and NFL or bust. I don't think any players go in there with illusions about Saban taking care of them for 4 years no matter what.

 

[smokey_wasp]

I'm not sure either. But everything I've seen from Coach Collins so far gives me confidence that whatever the solution is will be respectful, honest and "above the line". He'll have to figure out how to make the numbers work, which might not be easy, but that's why he's paid $x millions. It probably starts with hard honesty about where a player stands and what are his prospects for playing.

His whole plan is built around recruiting, building relationships and trust. I doubt he's going to screw a player over. Because tomorrow, he's going to have to tell the next player's Mama how he's going to care for her son.

Bama's program plan is NC and NFL or bust. I don't think any players go in there with illusions about Saban taking care of them for 4 years no matter what.

There is a balance to be struck. If you listen to what he says, it's family over everything, elite academics, developing players in every aspect of their lives....and it's also competition is king and above the line. I trust he can strike the right balance here.

 

[TechBurn]

“To be or not to be, that is the question.” — William Shakespeare

LOL

“To be or not to be. That’s not really a question,”
film director Jean-Luc Godard

LOL!

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

There is a balance to be struck. If you listen to what he says, it's family over everything, elite academics, developing players in every aspect of their lives....and it's also competition is king and above the line. I trust he can strike the right balance here.

We will see. What are the tricks of the trade for such balancing when a program over signs?

 

[takethepoints]

Sorry, continuation of the above. This general topic comes up in the lounge all the time. It boils down to this:

Do I owe you an opportunity or an outcome?

Pretty simple question on the face of it but our country is massively divided by this one basic element which defines the lens thru which people assess and decide. It even consumes football message board discussions. Think about it.

Actually, if I may wax philosophical for a moment, I think this is a major misconception.

I think all Americans come down on the opportunity side of this. The difference is more about what constitutes a fair opportunity. Some - like you, I suspect - see any action taken by the state to insure a level playing field as guaranteeing an outcome. But it is the lack of state action that guarantees that: if some competitors start at the 100 meter line and others at the 30 meter line, theres no doubt who'll win the race. If we could guarantee that merit alone gave the folks at the 30 meter line their advantage, I don't think most people would be that bent out of shape; we all know that some of us were more favored by "nature" then others. But, of course, we can't do that. Inequalities in wealth and status are responsible for the lion's share of the 30 meter group and most of them got that advantage through no effort of their own. The state steps in to see that the race is more even - not, mind, completely even - not to guarantee the outcome. That way opportunity doesn't clump as completely with those who would win with virtually no effort or merit of their own otherwise. Not doing so is both unjust - what's a state for if not to insure a more fair society? - and economically inefficient - we want people to grab the brass ring because they are smart and worked for it, not because their family is rich.

We can argue about what's necessary to insure more fair competition, but I don't think the main point is arguable.

Mods feel free to move this; I know it doesn't really fit.

 

[LibertyTurns]

For the record I’m not in favor of going full on Bammer/SEC and start cheating like a flea bitten mutt, however, things don’t always work out in life.

An honest way of dealing with it is straightforward discussions. If they’re not cutting it give them goals and a timeline just like every other competitive discipline.

Every parent who plunks down $40k plus a year is exptecting Johnny to get a degree and a good start to a career. GT processes kids out academically all the time, yet when it comes to athletes we’re supposed to string along those that can’t quite make it because it provides us a degree of moral superiority ??? What if we were doing just that with your precious degree program and gave every kid a degree whether they earned it or not? That’s essentially what some are advocating. Yeah there would be a ton of GT academic elitists with a panty knot rammed so far up their 5 hole you’d be able to hear the outrage in Johannesburg.

 

[takethepoints]

This whole thread is indicative of one of the reasons I liked Paul's approach to our program: we could win without the shenanigans we see in the factories.

With the TO we could get "out-recruited" every year and still win. And win with the kind of students we normally get at Tech; remember, even our exceptions are usually better students then what you find on the team at UNC, Clemson, or Bammer. It wasn't a secret sauce and needed a lot of support that Bobinski ended up not supplying. But the idea was to have a winning program adapted to the institute and based largely on students who could get in and stay for graduation.

Now, I see a lot of people here who appear to have forgotten the main goal: the football program should be accommodated to Tech, not Tech to the program. All of the recruiting advantages Coach has noised about so far are based on the unique character of Tech as a school; remember, "we have a better product to sell." And, in fact, I think Tech does have a unique product to attract young people and their families: graduation with a degree that actually means something and that can start them on the road of life with a real boost. But the main thing there is the degree; we commit to the player and he decides to stick or not. Talk about doing the normal tricks found at the factories has forgotten that. This does not mean that you can't be square with the player about his chances to play; all good coaches do that so that the young man can make a decision in his interests. But if we start to fudge around the edges on the grounds that "everyone else does it" and get caught, The Hill will squash P5 football at Tech. Take that as read.

I'm not writing this because I think Coach is likely to do what some above are asking for. I don't think he's a trickster by nature and I'm sure he wants to win without he kind of stuff we see elsewhere. But it's disheartening to me to see so many here suddenly so consumed by "winning big" that they are willing to subvert institutional policies to do it.

 

[bobongo]

For the record I’m not in favor of going full on Bammer/SEC and start cheating like a flea bitten mutt, however, things don’t always work out in life.

An honest way of dealing with it is straightforward discussions. If they’re not cutting it give them goals and a timeline just like every other competitive discipline.

Every parent who plunks down $40k plus a year is exptecting Johnny to get a degree and a good start to a career. GT processes kids out academically all the time, yet when it comes to athletes we’re supposed to string along those that can’t quite make it because it provides us a degree of moral superiority ??? What if we were doing just that with your precious degree program and gave every kid a degree whether they earned it or not? That’s essentially what some are advocating. Yeah there would be a ton of GT academic elitists with a panty knot rammed so far up their 5 hole you’d be able to hear the outrage in Johannesburg.

Nobody is for giving degrees out that aren't earned.

Earning your keep as pertaining to scholarships means doing your best. If kid does his best but just can't crack the two deep, the fault lies not with the kid but the coach who recruited him.

 

[bobongo]

Now, I see a lot of people here who appear to have forgotten the main goal here: the football program should be accommodated to Tech, not Tech to the program.

Absolutely.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

For the record I’m not in favor of going full on Bammer/SEC and start cheating like a flea bitten mutt, however, things don’t always work out in life.

An honest way of dealing with it is straightforward discussions. If they’re not cutting it give them goals and a timeline just like every other competitive discipline.

Every parent who plunks down $40k plus a year is exptecting Johnny to get a degree and a good start to a career. GT processes kids out academically all the time, yet when it comes to athletes we’re supposed to string along those that can’t quite make it because it provides us a degree of moral superiority ??? What if we were doing just that with your precious degree program and gave every kid a degree whether they earned it or not? That’s essentially what some are advocating. Yeah there would be a ton of GT academic elitists with a panty knot rammed so far up their 5 hole you’d be able to hear the outrage in Johannesburg.

Do this to SAs that obviously work hard and do everything coaches ask of them outside of earning a spot on the 2 deep?

 

[dressedcheeseside]

Like I said. We will have to agree to disagree since I think there’s little integrity holding the athletes hostage to a corrupt system. You’re also operating under a false premise that I’m suggesting not honoring our educational commitment to the athletes. We don’t guarantee they will play. So making sure they have a scholarship to finish their degree is honoring our agreement with them. But you keep to your guns about how it’s best to screw GT and/or the athletes. I am politely disagreeing with you and have spent more time than your argument warrants. I’m all for the athletes and GT. Have a good day.


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What you’re really saying is you’re for breaking the rules because others have and gotten away with it.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

Being in charge comes with immense responsibility and sometimes not all the news is good.

Here’s some food for thought as I’m assuming some of not most are in some sort of leadership position career wise in their lives:

a. Students (not just athletes) agree to come to GT on scholarship all the time. Get bad grades, you lose your money- Hope, Grants, etc.

b. You recruit a person from another company. They leave their good high paying job to work for you. They don’t perform. It’s 3 months in, they moved & sold their old house and bought a new one, wife quit her job to relocate, kids changed schools, etc. What do you do?

c. Athlete comes to GT. Says I can compete. Doesn’t work out hard enough, fails to learn his role, etc. Do you carry him 3 more years?

d. You buy a high priced product. Seller says it’s awesome, but damn thing breaks every 5 mins. Unit is advertised to do X, but doesn’t quite make it ever. You had a deal, right?

Life’s full of choices. At some point people need to grow up because the world cannot provide a worry free safety net for all your shortcomings.

There are no scholarship limits in those other scenarios. The limits are a small attempt to create a little parity. Instead of imitating the factories, we should be pressuring the NCAA to enforce the rule.

 

[GoldZ]

There is a balance to be struck. If you listen to what he says, it's family over everything, elite academics, developing players in every aspect of their lives....and it's also competition is king and above the line. I trust he can strike the right balance here.

Good post wasp. Some of the hype train would imply that CGC came up with academics, family, and developing into an adult as something new at Tech, which of course it's most certainly not. The key as you say, is balance, and I agree, let's let it play out. However, if members of a GT football board start posting: let's be Bama nonsense, who have no clue what we really are and always have been---then it may be time to push back.....uncalmly.

 

[jojatk]

There are no scholarship limits in those other scenarios. The limits are a small attempt to create a little parity. Instead of imitating the factories, we should be pressuring the NCAA to enforce the rule.

Agree that the NCAA should enforce the rules but they won’t and no pressuring from the member institutions that care will help because the one that don’t care about the rules are the ones they would listen to.


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[GoldZ]

Agree that the NCAA should enforce the rules but they won’t and no pressuring from the member institutions that care will help because the one that don’t care about the rules are the ones they would listen to.


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At least until the guys with the blue jackets with 3 initials on em show up. Basketball may soon be football's "how to" guide.