Anthem Protests

[Whiskey_Clear]

Well I started, but i stopped listening to people such as Shapiro a long time ago. It seems to be a belief of talk show hosts, liberal and conservative, that if you: Make the same bullet point over and over, use loosely fitting analogies, and speak forcefully enough, then you are obviously correct. Just beginning this clip, he makes statements about NFL fines. You get fined if: You violate the NFL uniform rules(although he states it much differently and derogatorily), you violate the unsportsmanlike rules after a touchdown. You don't get fined if you do something before a game that doesn't violate written NFL rules(although once again he states is much differently). He then quickly makes a glossing over statement that players who violated a written uniform rule(Which he just criticized the NFL for enforcing) had their penalties waived by the NFL. It seems to me that Shapiro is trying to win a debate club match, not actually discuss and dig into the issue. In fairness, I think that most liberal and most conservative talk show hosts that I have heard do the same thing.

I agree talk show guys hammer talking points relentlessly. What Shapiro states were facts though, whether you appreciate his tone or not.

Fwiw he goes on to hammer Trump, rightfully, for his use of his office to create a divisive bully pulpit. Trump is claiming he's only trying to promote national pride / respect for the country and its symbols. He isn't standing on, imo, the moral high ground he pretends to.

That's a separate issue for another thread however.

 

[jeffgt14]

At least we can all agree ESPN blows.

 

[kg01]

At least we can all agree ESPN blows.

Finally we can all agree on something! If the anthem can't unite us, hate for BSPN surely will.

#jeffgt4President

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

Lib is my guy. I didn't intend a personal attack. I do, however, think a lot of people's sense of patriotism is warped. Like any push to change/improve the country means you're anti-American. It's McCarthy-era(ish). To me, that's not the case at all.

"What, you knelt during the anthem? What are you? Isis?"



I'm so conflicted. I hate the ESPN-ization of this whole issue. It's why I refuse to watch that channel unless they're showing a GT game. However, I don't think legit protests should be silenced as un-American.

I think you in turn are twisting my stance. I will literally fight to protect any citizen's right to protest any issue peacefully. Even stances I vehemently oppose. I don't think said protesters have the right to do so while representing separate organizations or institutions while doing so, unless granted permission by said organizations / institutions. If Tech wants to get on board this particular train I'm jumping off. Simple as that.

 

[AE 87]

Lib is my guy. I didn't intend a personal attack. I do, however, think a lot of people's sense of patriotism is warped. Like any push to change/improve the country means you're anti-American. It's McCarthy-era(ish). To me, that's not the case at all.

"What, you knelt during the anthem? What are you? Isis?"



I'm so conflicted. I hate the ESPN-ization of this whole issue. It's why I refuse to watch that channel unless they're showing a GT game. However, I don't think legit protests should be silenced as un-American.

Who is complaining about efforts to change/improve the county? This is what I'm talking about as not actually listening to the other side. Heck, Trump, for all his buffoonery, campaigned with the slogan, "Make America Great Again." I love you man, but you must seriously be the only one in America who thinks Trump supporters think it's anti-American to want change/improve the country. I'm sorry, but that's just dumb.

So, rather than attacking people with whom you disagree by impugning their motives with nonsense like that, why don't you explain the legit protest. What makes America such a terrible country that it is legitimate for people to disrespect our flag and the nation for which it stands? Further the dialogue.

 

[kg01]

I think you in turn are twisting my stance. I will literally fight to protect any citizen's right to protest any issue peacefully. Even stances I vehemently oppose. I don't think said protesters have the right to do so while representing separate organizations or institutions while doing so, unless granted permission by said organizations / institutions. If Tech wants to get on board this particular train I'm jumping off. Simple as that.

Who is complaining about efforts to change/improve the county? This is what I'm talking about as not actually listening to the other side. Heck, Trump, for all his buffoonery, campaigned with the slogan, "Make America Great Again." I love you man, but you must seriously be the only one in America who thinks Trump supporters think it's anti-American to want change/improve the country. I'm sorry, but that's just dumb.

So, rather than attacking people with whom you disagree by impugning their motives with nonsense like that, why don't you explain the legit protest. What makes America such a terrible country that it is legitimate for people to disrespect our flag and the nation for which it stands? Further the dialogue.

I'm just not explaining myself fully, trying to be brief. You make a great point though. I'm of the opinion that the whole MAGA thing isn't about making the country better. It's about making the country a certain way, for certain people. So it doesn't register to me immediately that it's a push to "improve" the country. However, as you say, it is (allegedly) a push to change the country as well as these recent protests (allegedly) are.

I think the confounding factor in all this is that no one is explaining the legit protest.

At the end of the day, it appears that I just hate everybody. AE has forced my to self-analyze.

 

[RonJohn]

I agree talk show guys hammer talking points relentlessly. What Shapiro states were facts though, whether you appreciate his tone or not.

He said that players are penalized for having extra items on their uniforms and for excessive end zone celebrations. He said that players were threatened with penalties for including police support stickers on their uniforms. He said that players are not penalized for pre-game protests. All of those are true. However, he leaves out the fact that uniform codes are written NFL rules. They have penalized players for wearing the wrong socks before. He leaves out the fact that excessive celebration is a written rule with penalties. He leaves out the fact that pre-game political actions are NOT written into the NFL rules. He then later says that players who actually did violate the written uniform policies with the police support stickers had their penalties waived, but he does so in a lower tone statement. You can obfuscate the truth just as easily by omitting facts as you can by telling outright lies. In my opinion in this case, he left out very important details in the analysis of what gets punished and what does not get punished. I don't listen to such guys on either side of the political spectrum because I don't want to have to decipher what they spout.

 

[AE 87]

I'm just not explaining myself fully, trying to be brief. You make a great point though. I'm of the opinion that the whole MAGA thing isn't about making the country better. It's about making the country a certain way, for certain people. So it doesn't register to me immediately that it's a push to "improve" the country. However, as you say, it is (allegedly) a push to change the country as well as these recent protests (allegedly) are.

I think the confounding factor in all this is that no one is explaining the legit protest.

At the end of the day, it appears that I just hate everybody. AE has forced my to self-analyze.

Well, for what it's worth, I don't think your posts suggest that you hate everybody ... just white people

 

[kg01]

Well, for what it's worth, I don't think your posts suggest that you hate everybody ... just white people

There's only one group of people I think I actually hate and it's definitely not my white brothers 'n sisters.

 

[RonJohn]

Sanctioning minorities for taking unpopular political stances is what my great uncle and grandfather fought against in Italy in '43 and the Pacific in '44. You left your swastika where it can be seen.

They did not fight to guarantee people access to any platform they would like to use the express opinion. If I have an opinion, I am Constitutionally guaranteed to be able to:

• Say it to anyone who will listen.
• Write it down and distribute it however I can.

However:

• I am not guaranteed that I can post it on GTSwarm. The mods could cancel my membership at any time for any reason.
• If I type it and send it to a newspaper, the newspaper is not required to publish it.
• If I appear at a local TV station, they are not required to provide airtime for me to express my opinion.

Related to this discussion:

• If I am part of a group that makes public appearances, and I express a view in an appearance that the rest of the group does not agree with, the group is not required to include me in future public appearances.
• If I or my group expresses views that the hosts of the public events disagree with, they are not required to include my group in future events.

Someone can want the band or the school to exclude this person from future events without wanting this person to be silenced. Someone can want to watch a public event without having an official party of the school doing something they find offensive without being a Nazi or a racist. If anyone said that this girl, or anyone else minority or not, shouldn't be allowed to speak I would argue against such a statement. However, to request that this girl or anyone else not engage in perceived offensive speech while in an official capacity I don't think is improper or racist.

 

[jeffgt14]

I think you in turn are twisting my stance. I will literally fight to protect any citizen's right to protest any issue peacefully. Even stances I vehemently oppose. I don't think said protesters have the right to do so while representing separate organizations or institutions while doing so, unless granted permission by said organizations / institutions. If Tech wants to get on board this particular train I'm jumping off. Simple as that.

I believe they have every right to the protest while representing their organization/institution. It’s just the organization/institution also has every right to terminate these people for doing it. Whether or not said organization wants to deal with the public retaliation from this termination is for them to decide. There’s tricky lines to all of this of course because you don’t want companies and such to get in the way of people’s personal beliefs and rituals such as firing them for praying, being gay, etc.

I’m actually possibly all for business’ having the right to refuse services to those who are of any particular religion, sexual preference, etc. just so long as they lose any government benefit such as being taxed as a business, 401k tax deductions, probably the entire ability to incorporate. I haven’t thought it all through but I’m somewhere in that realm.

 

[MWBATL]

I just found this thread and have a few comments.

1. I am surprised that no one has made the comparison between these anthem protests and confederate flag flying. My own take on the confederate flag is that while people should have a right to fly it (First Amendment and all that), it is offensive to a segment of our society whom I consider important and worth listening to, and therefore I won't fly one or support flying one because all it does is divide us. (NB-I do think that some or many who support the confederate flag are trying to say they support local rights over federalism, but since it means something totally different historically, I agree with those who oppose it).
2. Those who which to protest during the anthem fall into exactly the same camp, imho. Do they have the right to do so? No question. Is it hateful and divisive (NO MATTER HOW THEY INTEND IT?), yes absolutely.
3. Is the NFL being completely inconsistent about its rules to bend over backwards and avoid pissing off their largest labor segment? Yup. No patches allowed on the Cowboys uniform after 5 police officers were killed by a BLM supporter, no allowance for 9/11 shoes, end zone celebrations can be censored...but this si allowed. The NFL is being practical, but certainly can be criticized for its inconsistency.
4. As (I think) everyone has said, the players have their rights, the NFL is a private organization and they have their rights, and the ticket buying and TV watching public have their rights. I think this argument is really just another one about the feeling (especially among conservatives) that we live in an era where reverse discrimination is completely acceptable and divisive comments are OK as long as they come from one wing of society/politics. But not for the other. Not trying to argue whether this is true or not, but I do think there is a clear perception that things have gone a little too far and there is a backlash against some of the excesses of progressivism. This is actually a pretty normal political response in virtually any society.

So, the flag girl is fine by me AS LONG AS SHE WOULD ALSO defend the right of another flag girl waving a confederate flag in front of her. Would she? I sincerely doubt it. Would most of those on here supporting here fight to defend the right of another girl to wave a confederate flag? I doubt it.

Maybe I'm wrong.

 

[PBR549]

I have no respect for anyone who will not stand for the flag and the national anthem for the greatest nation on earth period.

 

[Squints]

There were other owners who interlocked arms including Arthur Blank. Jerry Jones actually knelt before the Cowboy's game last night. The meaning being jumbled up is correct. People are protesting, but there isn't a well defined cause or path to resolution. What I have been saying is that I don't think there was a clear cause or path to resolution all the way back to Kaepernick's first statement to the media.

I would assume no for them as well since their QB depth charts are full and they already have quality QBs. As for the "path to resolution" I think that's because Kaepernick didn't anticipate the firestorm he was going to create. You're not going to hear me me say he's handled the situation well since it started.

I was only using the owners' involvement in protests this weekend to support the argument that he isn't unfairly being left out purely because of the protests. I would agree that a PR issue does cause issues. However, if he were a 6'5" pocket passer with a 68% completion percentage, the PR issue wouldn't be an issue at all. If you are an athletic player who might could help but only marginally fit the system, then any baggage or PR issues are going to hurt your chances.

And I never made that argument. We're saying the same thing here.

 

[kg01]

I have no respect for anyone who will not stand for the flag and the national anthem for the greatest nation on earth period.

Can we atleast agree to change the anthem to 'America the Beautiful' so I don't have to stand for this anti-abolitionist nonsense ...

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore,
That the havoc of war and the battle’s confusion
A home and a Country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wash’d out their foul footstep’s pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

Can we atleast agree to change the anthem to 'America the Beautiful' so I don't have to stand for this anti-abolitionist nonsense ...

Absolutely not! America the Beautiful is worse. First of all, how subjective is it to call something beautiful? Now you're just grading landscapes like you'd grade women in a swimsuit competition. How degrading! Furthermore, it refers to purple mountains - are we encouraging use of heroin or PCP? No mountains are purple in real life! Encouraging illicit drug use is terrible! And it talks about God over and over - we are a country that separates church and state - the churches need to be on an island like Hawaii that isn't even a state. Its like Kenya over there. I could go on and on, but lets just quote the last line of the song: "Thy whiter jubilee." RACIST!

 

[kg01]

Absolutely not! America the Beautiful is worse. First of all, how subjective is it to call something beautiful? Now you're just grading landscapes like you'd grade women in a swimsuit competition. How degrading! Furthermore, it refers to purple mountains - are we encouraging use of heroin or PCP? No mountains are purple in real life! Encouraging illicit drug use is terrible! And it talks about God over and over - we are a country that separates church and state - the churches need to be on an island like Hawaii that isn't even a state. Its like Kenya over there. I could go on and on, but lets just quote the last line of the song: "Thy whiter jubilee." RACIST!

*gasp* bwelbo doesn't think America is beautiful!!!

 

[Deleted member 2897]

*gasp* bwelbo doesn't think America is beautiful!!!

@bwelbo , why do you hate America so much?

 

[PBR549]

Can we atleast agree to change the anthem to 'America the Beautiful' so I don't have to stand for this anti-abolitionist nonsense ...

No, too many people have died, including some of my friends and family, supporting that flag and that anthem and the freedoms of all americans. So no.

 

[A Love Supreme]

I demand everyone stand right now for the national anthem.