American Cultural Revolution

[Whiskey_Clear]

Without talking about the savings on healthcare premiums you're not presenting the whole picture. The 11% you're referencing is 4% on the employee side and 7% on the employer side. My premiums come out to almost 6% on my end and my employer matches. That comes out to 2% SAVINGS for me on healthcare costs and a 1% increase in cost for my employer. I'll take that.

You still good with it when your employer lays you and your coworkers off because it’s affected their bottom line?

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

That's an additional tax increase on top of current payroll taxes. Its not a replacement.

There are also fees associated with using Medicare - these new taxes don't do away with those either.

But yea, that's the reason its bankrupting the country. We're only charging 1/3rd the actual cost. I guess hell - pilfer the country's treasury while we can right! Last one out, turn out the lights!

The global warming crowd will try and turn all of our lights off beforehand.

 

[Lotta Booze]

You still good with it when your employer lays you and your coworkers off because it’s affected their bottom line?

If a 1% increase in my cost to them would cause them to lay me off why do they keep giving me raises?

I guess if you are just overhead and not providing value to the company then maybe you should be worried about it. But I'm not.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

If a 1% increase in my cost to them would cause them to lay me off why do they keep giving me raises?

I guess if you are just overhead and not providing value to the company then maybe you should be worried about it. But I'm not.

That is not taking all of their costs into account – part of these people’s plan to pay for this is to also return the corporate tax rate to what it used to be – which is a doubling back to close to 40%.

 

[Lotta Booze]

That is not taking all of their costs into account – part of these people’s plan to pay for this is to also return the corporate tax rate to what it used to be – which is a doubling back to close to 40%.

That depends on the plan. And what Whiskey quoted me on was discussing Bernie's plan that you linked to earlier. Which doesn't mention raising those rates at all

 

[Deleted member 2897]

That depends on the plan. And what Whiskey quoted me on was discussing Bernie's plan that you linked to earlier. Which doesn't mention raising those rates at all

He wants to increase corporate taxes, estate taxes, income taxes, financial transactions taxes, sin taxes. It’s hard to know which of those taxes is going for which part of his policy proposals, so I wasn’t just trying to make things up. If his corporate tax increases werent specifically going to Medicare for all, I apologize.

 

[MWBATL]

@Lotta Juice , given has horrible all cost estimates have been for these massive government programs, I find it hard to believe anyone other than ardent partisans could possible believe that Medicare for all will bankrupt us or cause enormous tax increases. But then perhaps you are one of the uninformed who think Obamacare somehow “bent the cost curve”.....when in reality it has cost our government hundreds of billions annually beyond the cost estimates

 

[Lotta Booze]

He wants to increase corporate taxes, estate taxes, income taxes, financial transactions taxes, sin taxes. It’s hard to know which of those taxes is going for which part of his policy proposals, so I wasn’t just trying to make things up. If his corporate tax increases werent specifically going to Medicare for all, I apologize.

I was basing it off that link for Medicare for All. I’ve certainly heard him criticize the tax avoidance that many companies like Amazon and Netflix enjoy but I haven’t heard or seen anything from him saying he’d “raise the corporate rate by X%

 

[Lotta Booze]

@Lotta Juice , given has horrible all cost estimates have been for these massive government programs, I find it hard to believe anyone other than ardent partisans could possible believe that Medicare for all will bankrupt us or cause enormous tax increases. But then perhaps you are one of the uninformed who think Obamacare somehow “bent the cost curve”.....when in reality it has cost our government hundreds of billions annually beyond the cost estimates

While I definitely don’t know everything I don’t think I’m uninformed. Certainly more informed that your average Joe on the street.

I agree that the system is bad now and needs to be improved. Ben Shapiro, who’s about as conservative as it gets, has said that going all public or all private would be better than the hybrid we have now. If either one is better than what we have right now then you can probably guess which I’ll land on. I’ve made it pretty clear.

But also, what option have Republicans left people with. Trump has had time to do something and failed completely. And still is punting till his next term to figure something out. In the meantime it’s just vague generalities of how “wonderful” the healthcare will be. And other Republicans chime in with generalities about “increasing competition”...and yet still no plan. It’s clearly not a priority for them.

Criticize tax plans from the Democrats all you want. There always will be discussion and disagreement about appropriate levels of taxation. But at least the Democrats are putting out potential solutions.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

While I definitely don’t know everything I don’t think I’m uninformed. Certainly more informed that your average Joe on the street.

I agree that the system is bad now and needs to be improved. Ben Shapiro, who’s about as conservative as it gets, has said that going all public or all private would be better than the hybrid we have now. If either one is better than what we have right now then you can probably guess which I’ll land on. I’ve made it pretty clear.

But also, what option have Republicans left people with. Trump has had time to do something and failed completely. And still is punting till his next term to figure something out. In the meantime it’s just vague generalities of how “wonderful” the healthcare will be. And other Republicans chime in with generalities about “increasing competition”...and yet still no plan. It’s clearly not a priority for them.

Criticize tax plans from the Democrats all you want. There always will be discussion and disagreement about appropriate levels of taxation. But at least the Democrats are putting out potential solutions.

True - we have the worst of both worlds in health insurance. But it’s like student loans - the government steps in, messes something up, and then wants even more control. In student loans, the government took over the entire industry 10 years ago and now folks like Warren want to just cancel and erase $1T in debt. LOL.

Health insurance is not Trumps fault - he can’t write laws. It’s primarily folks like John mcCain who campaigned on fixing it for several years and then voted against it when he finally had the chance...because he hated Trump.

Democrats run the House now, so Tepublicans can’t do anything on healthcare other than try and amend Democrats bills that are brought up. Republicans chance to fix healthcare came and went. Thanks McCain.

 

[Lotta Booze]

True - we have the worst of both worlds in health insurance. But it’s like student loans - the government steps in, messes something up, and then wants even more control. In student loans, the government took over the entire industry 10 years ago and now folks like Warren want to just cancel and erase $1T in debt. LOL.

Health insurance is not Trumps fault - he can’t write laws. It’s primarily folks like John mcCain who campaigned on fixing it for several years and then voted against it when he finally had the chance...because he hated Trump.

Democrats run the House now, so Tepublicans can’t do anything on healthcare other than try and amend Democrats bills that are brought up. Republicans chance to fix healthcare came and went. Thanks McCain.

I find it hard to blame McCain when Republicans put together such a BS plan. And while Trump can't write laws he is the leader of the party that controlled both houses of Congress at the time so he takes a lot of responsibility. I thought that was something conservatives championed, accountability and responsibility, rather than make excuses. And McCain was hardly the only Republican to dissent from that bill. That bill by the way would have kicked millions off of healthcare, raised premiums, and only succeeded in reducing the deficit by 5% or so. That's trash.

And your buddy Paul Krugman described it as such: the bill's "awfulness is almost surreal", writing that what Republican congressional leadership "came up with instead was a dog's breakfast that conservatives are, with some justice, calling Obamacare 2.0. But a better designation would be Obamacare 0.5, because it's a half-baked plan that accepts the logic and broad outline of the Affordable Care Act while catastrophically weakening key provisions."

Is that what Trumpublicans have in store after 2020?

 

[LibertyTurns]

I find it hard to blame McCain when Republicans put together such a BS plan. And while Trump can't write laws he is the leader of the party that controlled both houses of Congress at the time so he takes a lot of responsibility. I thought that was something conservatives championed, accountability and responsibility, rather than make excuses. And McCain was hardly the only Republican to dissent from that bill. That bill by the way would have kicked millions off of healthcare, raised premiums, and only succeeded in reducing the deficit by 5% or so. That's trash.

And your buddy Paul Krugman described it as such: the bill's "awfulness is almost surreal", writing that what Republican congressional leadership "came up with instead was a dog's breakfast that conservatives are, with some justice, calling Obamacare 2.0. But a better designation would be Obamacare 0.5, because it's a half-baked plan that accepts the logic and broad outline of the Affordable Care Act while catastrophically weakening key provisions."

Is that what Trumpublicans have in store after 2020?

The Maniac’s plan is not to fix Obamacare, it’s to allow it to implode under it’s own weight rendering it useless. Obamacare was supposed to accomplish the following:

A. Enroll over 20 million people in exchanges. Actual is 10 and declining. Less than 50%. Grade : F
B. Provide for 700k insurance for those with Pre-exisiting Conditions which could not otherwise have gotten it. Actual is 56k. Approx 8%. Grade: F-
C. Cost was supposed to be 13K per enrollee. Actual cost is $29k. Almost 125% more expensive than projected. Grade: F
D. Percent of exchange enrollees without subsidies was supposed to be 25%. Actual 17%. 30% delta. Grade: C
E. Spending on subsidies was supposed to be $59B and was $56B. Grade: A
F. Uninsured was supposed to be 20% and is 11%. Grade: A
G. Deductibles (I’ll only cite family as others are similar or worse)- Projected to be $4200, is $8k. Approx 90% higher. Grade: F
H. Lastly, overall cost over 10 year period was supposed to be $900B but is now $1.7T. Over by 88%. I’ll put an asterisk on this one because I believe the latter number to be over 11 years which would bring the overage down into the 70% range. Grade: F

You’re in a non-government business and your Major Program Manager presents you Obamacare. You decide to implement. He’s still with the company 7 years later. Do you:

A. Promote him to VP of Business Excellence?
B. Leave him in the same position to develop & implement another suck as program to completely destroy your company?
C. Realize you needed to fire him 3 years ago & replace him with someone to dismantle his program, stop buying his BS and find some boxes to move his crap off the facility premises?

 

[LibertyTurns]

Should have added another question: Are you even around to fire the bastard or is your career already ruined? Maybe you have a silver tongue and can talk your way out of anything?

Lastly for my talking points brethren that can only regurgitate what they hear on tv:

Brought to you by FoxNews

 

[Deleted member 2897]

I find it hard to blame McCain when Republicans put together such a BS plan. And while Trump can't write laws he is the leader of the party that controlled both houses of Congress at the time so he takes a lot of responsibility. I thought that was something conservatives championed, accountability and responsibility, rather than make excuses. And McCain was hardly the only Republican to dissent from that bill. That bill by the way would have kicked millions off of healthcare, raised premiums, and only succeeded in reducing the deficit by 5% or so. That's trash.

And your buddy Paul Krugman described it as such: the bill's "awfulness is almost surreal", writing that what Republican congressional leadership "came up with instead was a dog's breakfast that conservatives are, with some justice, calling Obamacare 2.0. But a better designation would be Obamacare 0.5, because it's a half-baked plan that accepts the logic and broad outline of the Affordable Care Act while catastrophically weakening key provisions."

Is that what Trumpublicans have in store after 2020?

I don’t know what you’re talking about. I do champion accountability and responsibility. That’s why I specifically blamed John McCain. Republicans voted for the bill that they wrote. He single-handedly defeated it. There you go.

In terms of “catastrophically weakening” key provisions ofbthevACA, that’s a good start. I’d prefer ObamaCare 0.1, but 0.5 is a good strt. Remember, this was the plan that after several years nobody even wanted it when it was free. Almost everybody who signed up for it we’re the free people on Medicaid. Medicaid is the program whose health outcomes are worse than having no insurance at all.

 

[MWBATL]

While I definitely don’t know everything I don’t think I’m uninformed. Certainly more informed that your average Joe on the street.

I agree that the system is bad now and needs to be improved. Ben Shapiro, who’s about as conservative as it gets, has said that going all public or all private would be better than the hybrid we have now. If either one is better than what we have right now then you can probably guess which I’ll land on. I’ve made it pretty clear.

But also, what option have Republicans left people with. Trump has had time to do something and failed completely. And still is punting till his next term to figure something out. In the meantime it’s just vague generalities of how “wonderful” the healthcare will be. And other Republicans chime in with generalities about “increasing competition”...and yet still no plan. It’s clearly not a priority for them.

Criticize tax plans from the Democrats all you want. There always will be discussion and disagreement about appropriate levels of taxation. But at least the Democrats are putting out potential solutions.

I respect everything you just said. I honestly do.

I am also quite frustrated and agree with you that the Republicans have looked like keystone cops when it comes to reforming our medical system.

I also agree with you (and Shapiro) that we have a horse designed by committee right now....and it sure looks like a camel to me.

My YUGE concern is that many of the Democratic plans have a risk of destroying the underlying quality of health care by de-incentivizing doctors and medical professionals. Although I still fear the costs as a primary concern as well.

I would much rather be VERY cautious and careful and incremental right now with changes to our medical system, and (as I have made clear) move to remove the barnacles the government has attached to the system over the decades....

Here is a factual statement about how entitlements have done to our total federal expenditures ...from the WSJ
Meantime, look at “payments for individuals,” which encompass such income transfers as Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security and food stamps, among other things. This category was 47.7% of outlays in 1989 and has steadily climbed to reach an estimated 69.2% in 2019......Even with Mr. Trump’s modest increases, defense barely rises as a share of federal outlays. In 1989 when the Berlin Wall fell, defense was 26.5% of outlays. In 2019 it will be 15.6%.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

I respect everything you just said. I honestly do.

I am also quite frustrated and agree with you that the Republicans have looked like keystone cops when it comes to reforming our medical system.

I also agree with you (and Shapiro) that we have a horse designed by committee right now....and it sure looks like a camel to me.

My YUGE concern is that many of the Democratic plans have a risk of destroying the underlying quality of health care by de-incentivizing doctors and medical professionals. Although I still fear the costs as a primary concern as well.

I would much rather be VERY cautious and careful and incremental right now with changes to our medical system, and (as I have made clear) move to remove the barnacles the government has attached to the system over the decades....

Here is a factual statement about how entitlements have done to our total federal expenditures ...from the WSJ
Meantime, look at “payments for individuals,” which encompass such income transfers as Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security and food stamps, among other things. This category was 47.7% of outlays in 1989 and has steadily climbed to reach an estimated 69.2% in 2019......Even with Mr. Trump’s modest increases, defense barely rises as a share of federal outlays. In 1989 when the Berlin Wall fell, defense was 26.5% of outlays. In 2019 it will be 15.6%.

Medicare is the single worst program run by the Federal Government ever. It’s $30 Trillion in the red. It’s fund runs out under the next new President. Hell, we couldn’t even manage the Cash For Clunkers program. And THATS (Medicare) what some people want to expand to everyone? Simply because it only charges people 1/3rd the costs - it’s like going to the ATM, withdrawing $100 from your account, but $300 comes out. Who would like that? Now who would also say that’s a well run bank? Let’s expand that system nationwide! LOL.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

Medicare is the single worst program run by the Federal Government ever. It’s $30 Trillion in the red. It’s fund runs out under the next new President. Hell, we couldn’t even manage the Cash For Clunkers program. And THATS (Medicare) what some people want to expand to everyone? Simply because it only charges people 1/3rd the costs - it’s like going to the ATM, withdrawing $100 from your account, but $300 comes out. Who would like that? Now who would also say that’s a well run bank? Let’s expand that system nationwide! LOL.

Medicaid is worse. The VA is worse. By a lot.

 

[LibertyTurns]

Medicaid is worse. The VA is worse. By a lot.

Name a government program that runs well. Just one.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

Name a government program that runs well. Just one.

Army, Navy (Marines), Air Force.

Not saying the Defense Dept can’t be run better but I’m pretty good with those 3 and the men and women who comprise them.

 

[LibertyTurns]

Army, Navy (Marines), Air Force.

Not saying the Defense Dept can’t be run better but I’m pretty good with those 3 and the men and women who comprise them.

I’m more critical of the Services. Readiness rates are deteriorating. It’s not the Service Member’s faults per se as resources are being squandered as directed at much higher levels, but choices regarding how to operate & train plus many policies are being improperly made and a lot of that comes down on those directly leading the force.