Ahmaud Arbery murder case

[Milwaukee]

Also, there have been court cases that have basically said that if you threaten someone and they respond to your threat, you cannot use self-defense as a defense. One person cannot pull out a knife and then justify stabbing the other person because that person grabbed their knife hand to try to prevent himself from being stabbed. In this case, McMichael can't threaten Arbery with a gun and then use the fact that Arbery fought back as justification for shooting him. The initial assault(threaten with a gun) was made by McMichael.

This sounds like opinion trying to be stated as fact. And I even agree with your opinion.

 

[ramblinwreckguru]

Are you using your definition of assault or the legal definition of assault in Georgia? Using a gun to threaten someone IS assault under Georgia law. Having a gun in your hand while making threatening commands IS assault under Georgia law.

What definition of assault are you using? I posted the one that I am using.

Ok. I guess we will get to see if a court of law agrees with your position or mine.

 

[RonJohn]

This sounds like opinion trying to be stated as fact. And I even agree with your opinion.

Which part is opinion?

Did McMichael use a gun to attempt to stop Arbery? If he did, that fits the legal definition of assault.

 

[RonJohn]

Ok. I guess we will get to see if a court of law agrees with your position or mine.

What exactly is your position? What is your definition of assault? As I have stated, I posted the legal definition of assault in Georgia, and that is the definition that I am using.

 

[GT_EE78]

Good gracious golly alive. When he got to the truck in the middle of the road, the driver was standing on the left side of the truck as you watch the video. Ahmaud kept on jogging and moved over to pass around the right side. As he came around the front corner of the truck, the driver had moved over there with the gun aimed at him. Less than 1 second after Ahmaud passed the right side of the truck, the driver had fired the first shot. I can't tell what the driver yelled at Ahmaud, but I'm sure that will be part of the evidence. To be clear, the first shot was fired before the two men engaged in the wrestle for the gun. Without knowing what the guy was yelling at Ahmaud as he tried to run by, you can't know what Ahmaud was thinking, and you might never. If all of a sudden 5 feet to your left is a guy aiming a gun at you and yelling something, you might try to wrestle the gun away too. Ahmaud was fighting for the gun. He was fighting for his life. The only punch I ever saw him throw was after he had already been shot twice.

driver had moved over there . with the gun aimed at him
> can't see where the gun is pointed because the open door is between them and the videographer
> look again,when first shot is fired Travis feet are visible under the driver-side door.
the first shot was fired before the two men engaged
>can't tell from video - driver-side door is open blocking the view
> autopsy shows first shot hit his hand, if his finger prints are on the barrel then it's logical to assume that he pulled the gun from the barrel end possibly causing the gun to go off

 

[ramblinwreckguru]

What exactly is your position? What is your definition of assault? As I have stated, I posted the legal definition of assault in Georgia, and that is the definition that I am using.

My position is that the McMichaels did not legally assault Arbery with guns, and I believe this will be proven in a court of law.

 

[Milwaukee]

Which part is opinion?

Did McMichael use a gun to attempt to stop Arbery? If he did, that fits the legal definition of assault.

Not that part. The part about there have been cases that kinda sorta basically said xyz...

 

[RonJohn]

My position is that the McMichaels did not legally assault Arbery with guns, and I believe this will be proven in a court of law.

Based on what definition of assault? Did the younger McMichael have a gun in his hands and issue threatening commands toward Arbery? If so, it does match the legal definition of assault.

Are you saying that the younger McMichael did not have a gun in his hands? Are you saying that he did not issue a threatening command to Arbery? Are you saying that a reasonable person would not have a fear of immediate injury if a person with a gun issues threatening commands to him?

Can you explain your position that McMichael didn't assault Arbery, or is it just a feeling based on some vague definition of assault that you cant actually explain?

 

[Deleted member 2897]

driver had moved over there . with the gun aimed at him
> can't see where the gun is pointed because the open door is between them and the videographer
> look again,when first shot is fired Travis feet are visible under the driver-side door.
the first shot was fired before the two men engaged
>can't tell from video - driver-side door is open blocking the view
> autopsy shows first shot hit his hand, if his finger prints are on the barrel then it's logical to assume that he pulled the gun from the barrel end possibly causing the gun to go off

LOL. He eventually wrestled with the gun - of course his finger prints are on the gun.

I can tell these things from watching the video. Watch it a few times and you'll see. Unless you just don't want to see it.

 

[armeck]

My position is that the McMichaels did not legally assault Arbery with guns, and I believe this will be proven in a court of law.

I do beleive that as of today, brandishing a firearm is still assault. There is a bill to change that, however, not sure where it stands since the pandemic shutdown.
https://www.ajc.com/news/state--reg...ke-legal-brandish-gun/Oe2x0xPUTKP99PueauFWdI/

 

[Milwaukee]

I do beleive that as of today, brandishing a firearm is still assault. There is a bill to change that, however, not sure where it stands since the pandemic shutdown.
https://www.ajc.com/news/state--reg...ke-legal-brandish-gun/Oe2x0xPUTKP99PueauFWdI/

Law or no law, the fact that they chased him with guns and caused the confrontation should be enough to put them away. Unfortunately I believe through all these dumb mile long laws we have that these 2 will walk somehow due to some stupid grey area written within one of these thousands of laws.

 

[Supersizethatorder-mutt]

Law or no law, the fact that they chased him with guns and caused the confrontation should be enough to put them away. Unfortunately I believe through all these dumb mile long laws we have that these 2 will walk somehow due to some stupid grey area written within one of these thousands of laws.

They didn't just "chase" him with guns; they were lying in wait for him with guns, blocking the center of the road on which he was running.

 

[ramblinwreckguru]

Based on what definition of assault? Did the younger McMichael have a gun in his hands and issue threatening commands toward Arbery? If so, it does match the legal definition of assault.

Are you saying that the younger McMichael did not have a gun in his hands? Are you saying that he did not issue a threatening command to Arbery? Are you saying that a reasonable person would not have a fear of immediate injury if a person with a gun issues threatening commands to him?

Can you explain your position that McMichael didn't assault Arbery, or is it just a feeling based on some vague definition of assault that you cant actually explain?

Let's just use these definitions. I think they're very similar to what you posted earlier, and I've even highlighted the parts that I think you're hanging your hat on.

Simple Assault: Attempting to commit a violent injury on someone else or putting them in a situation where it’s reasonable they can be injured in such a manner. No actual physical touching is necessary to violate the law. Words can be enough. For example, threatening to break someone's neck, if done in a menacing manner, can be considered simple assault.

Aggravated Assault: Assaulting someone:
(1) With intent to murder, to rape, or to rob;
(2) With a deadly weapon or with any object, device, or instrument which, when used
offensively against a person, is likely to or actually does result in serious bodily injury; or
(3) Shooting a firearm from within a
motor vehicle toward a person or persons.

Ok. Simple Battery. Did the McMichaels put Arbery in a situation where it's reasonable they can be injured in such a matter? I say no, but Arbery did put himself in a situation where it's reasonable he could be injured by initiating contact with someone with a gun. Do reasonable people really do that? Also, you say that the McMichaels are verbally threatening Arbery as he approaches. Where are you getting this. I certainly can't tell this by the video.

Aggravated Assault. Did the McMichaels use guns offensively against Arbery? I say no. Since Arbery is actually initiating the attack, it appears that Mr McMichael is on defense as he did not initiate the attack.

 

[armeck]

Let's just use these definitions. I think they're very similar to what you posted earlier, and I've even highlighted the parts that I think you're hanging your hat on.

Simple Assault: Attempting to commit a violent injury on someone else or putting them in a situation where it’s reasonable they can be injured in such a manner. No actual physical touching is necessary to violate the law. Words can be enough. For example, threatening to break someone's neck, if done in a menacing manner, can be considered simple assault.

Aggravated Assault: Assaulting someone:
(1) With intent to murder, to rape, or to rob;
(2) With a deadly weapon or with any object, device, or instrument which, when used
offensively against a person, is likely to or actually does result in serious bodily injury; or
(3) Shooting a firearm from within a
motor vehicle toward a person or persons.

Ok. Simple Battery. Did the McMichaels put Arbery in a situation where it's reasonable they can be injured in such a matter? I say no, but Arbery did put himself in a situation where it's reasonable he could be injured by initiating contact with someone with a gun. Do reasonable people really do that? Also, you say that the McMichaels are verbally threatening Arbery as he approaches. Where are you getting this. I certainly can't tell this by the video.

Aggravated Assault. Did the McMichaels use guns offensively against Arbery? I say no. Since Arbery is actually initiating the attack, it appears that Mr McMichael is on defense as he did not initiate the attack.

You keep intermixing assault and battery.

Also, you are simply wrong:
https://bixonlaw.com/thin-line-brandishing-firearm-leads-aggravated-assault-charge/

 

[RonJohn]

Let's just use these definitions. I think they're very similar to what you posted earlier, and I've even highlighted the parts that I think you're hanging your hat on.

Simple Assault: Attempting to commit a violent injury on someone else or putting them in a situation where it’s reasonable they can be injured in such a manner. No actual physical touching is necessary to violate the law. Words can be enough. For example, threatening to break someone's neck, if done in a menacing manner, can be considered simple assault.

Aggravated Assault: Assaulting someone:
(1) With intent to murder, to rape, or to rob;
(2) With a deadly weapon or with any object, device, or instrument which, when used
offensively against a person, is likely to or actually does result in serious bodily injury; or
(3) Shooting a firearm from within a
motor vehicle toward a person or persons.

Ok. Simple Battery. Did the McMichaels put Arbery in a situation where it's reasonable they can be injured in such a matter? I say no, but Arbery did put himself in a situation where it's reasonable he could be injured by initiating contact with someone with a gun. Do reasonable people really do that? Also, you say that the McMichaels are verbally threatening Arbery as he approaches. Where are you getting this. I certainly can't tell this by the video.

Aggravated Assault. Did the McMichaels use guns offensively against Arbery? I say no. Since Arbery is actually initiating the attack, it appears that Mr McMichael is on defense as he did not initiate the attack.

Aggrevated Assault: McMichael doesn't have to "use guns offensively against Arbery". Using the definitions, Simple Assault is "(2) Commits an act which places another in reasonable apprehension of immediately receiving a violent injury.". As you said McMichael didn't have to actually touch Arbery in order to commit assault. Simply putting Arbery in a situation in which he has a reasonable fear that McMichael might injure him is enough. To get the aggravated assault, you commit assault "(2) With a deadly weapon "..... It doesn't say that you have to use the weapon offensively, only that the weapon has the ability to create serious bodily injury IF it is used offensively. Using such a weapon to commit simple assault, which as you stated doesn't require physical touching, is aggravated assault.

Holding a gun in your hand and yelling at someone to stop will likely cause that person to fear that you are going to injure them if they don't obey your commands. Going just by your words, that is assault. Even by your reasoning, McMichael assaulted Arbery.

 

[armeck]

I'm sorry what now?
Letter: Black racism murdered Arbery
https://www.augustachronicle.com/op...dxCTUWOTb7nMV_pz4y60N_XJ788M3a_OUVHj-JSmMOSt4

Black racism murdered Ahmaud Arbery, not white racism. Even if there was no black person who pulled the shotgun trigger, the murderer of Arbery is black racism.

The father and son Gregory and Travis McMichael, two white men charged with pulling the trigger, may be guilty of homicide. But the real murderer of Arbery is black racism. Their actions are symptomatic of a growing number of whites who are sick and tired of black racism.

Despite blacks who believe that white racism murdered Arbery, white racism has been on the decline in America since the 1960s. Yet, blacks are quick to scream white racism for any and everything.

Even in a climate of full integration, blacks continue to demand an emphasis on being black. Black colleges, and black TV shows like the annual Trumpet Awards or Blackish, are indications that racist black people seek segregation rather than integration. The problem is that these colleges and TV shows are indications of black racism. The shooting of Arbery is simply saying, “We white people are sick and tired of black people playing the victim and yelling white racism.” We are sick and tired of blacks who desire segregation.

So, when we see Gregory and Travis and hear gunfire, we are actually seeing black racism as the cause and not white racism. Behind their actions of murder lies an increasing presence of whites who are sick and tired of blacks who believe that they deserve a privileged place in America because of the past mistakes of slavery. Whites are sick and tired of this rising black racism.


It is unfortunate that any American citizen, black or white, is murdered unnecessarily. But unless black people stop playing the victim and stop yelling white racism as the reason for their own ills, we will continue to see an increasing number of whites who become disenchanted and resort to unseemly means.

Matthew Hutcherson

Augusta

 

[Techster]

I'm sorry what now?
Letter: Black racism murdered Arbery
https://www.augustachronicle.com/op...dxCTUWOTb7nMV_pz4y60N_XJ788M3a_OUVHj-JSmMOSt4

**On another note, I'm highly disappointed our mods still haven't given us an "eating popcorn" emoji. It's like they get paid to do nothing...

 

[ramblinwreckguru]

Aggrevated Assault: McMichael doesn't have to "use guns offensively against Arbery". Using the definitions, Simple Assault is "(2) Commits an act which places another in reasonable apprehension of immediately receiving a violent injury.". As you said McMichael didn't have to actually touch Arbery in order to commit assault. Simply putting Arbery in a situation in which he has a reasonable fear that McMichael might injure him is enough. To get the aggravated assault, you commit assault "(2) With a deadly weapon "..... It doesn't say that you have to use the weapon offensively, only that the weapon has the ability to create serious bodily injury IF it is used offensively. Using such a weapon to commit simple assault, which as you stated doesn't require physical touching, is aggravated assault.

Holding a gun in your hand and yelling at someone to stop will likely cause that person to fear that you are going to injure them if they don't obey your commands. Going just by your words, that is assault. Even by your reasoning, McMichael assaulted Arbery.

Dude, you act like I'm pulling these definitions out of thin air.

https://statelaws.findlaw.com/georgia-law/georgia-assault-and-battery-laws.html

Read this definition of Aggravated Assault again that was taken word for word from the above link.

(2) With a deadly weapon or with any object, device, or instrument which, when used
offensively against a person, is likely to or actually does result in serious bodily injury;

As written, the person with the deadly weapon MUST use it offensively against a person in order for the "likely to or actually does result in serious bodily injury" to even apply.

Even regarding simple assault, if Arbery stays away from the McMichaels, there's no situation that it is reasonable that Arbery will be injured.

 

[Studdard63]

Let's just use these definitions. I think they're very similar to what you posted earlier, and I've even highlighted the parts that I think you're hanging your hat on.

Simple Assault: Attempting to commit a violent injury on someone else or putting them in a situation where it’s reasonable they can be injured in such a manner. No actual physical touching is necessary to violate the law. Words can be enough. For example, threatening to break someone's neck, if done in a menacing manner, can be considered simple assault.

Aggravated Assault: Assaulting someone:
(1) With intent to murder, to rape, or to rob;
(2) With a deadly weapon or with any object, device, or instrument which, when used
offensively against a person, is likely to or actually does result in serious bodily injury; or
(3) Shooting a firearm from within a
motor vehicle toward a person or persons.

Ok. Simple Battery. Did the McMichaels put Arbery in a situation where it's reasonable they can be injured in such a matter? I say no, but Arbery did put himself in a situation where it's reasonable he could be injured by initiating contact with someone with a gun. Do reasonable people really do that? Also, you say that the McMichaels are verbally threatening Arbery as he approaches. Where are you getting this. I certainly can't tell this by the video.

Aggravated Assault. Did the McMichaels use guns offensively against Arbery? I say no. Since Arbery is actually initiating the attack, it appears that Mr McMichael is on defense as he did not initiate the attack.

As a criminal defense lawyer, what you are saying doesn’t make any sense. But hey, what do I know. This is assault according to the Georgia Code:

(2) Commits an act which places another in reasonable apprehension of immediately receiving a violent injury.

Whether they committed assault will be decided by a jury.

And they most definitely used their guns offensively in the sense that they shot him. Whether that act was justified will boil down to who is found to be the initial instigator. I believe a Judge in an Immunity Motion or a jury in a trial will find the McMichaels to be the initial instigators, but we shall see.

 

[ramblinwreckguru]

As a criminal defense lawyer, what you are saying doesn’t make any sense. But hey, what do I know. This is assault according to the Georgia Code:

(2) Commits an act which places another in reasonable apprehension of immediately receiving a violent injury.

Whether they committed assault will be decided by a jury.

And they most definitely used their guns offensively in the sense that they shot him. Whether that act was justified will boil down to who is found to be the initial instigator. I believe a Judge in an Immunity Motion or a jury in a trial will find the McMichaels to be the initial instigators, but we shall see.

That's right. A jury, not Ron Jon, will decide whether or not the McMichaels assaulted Arbery. I still believe that the only reason that Arbery got shot was because he tried to grab the gun from one of the men which would put McMichael on defense.