A Thread to Rehash GT HC Comparisons

[WreckinGT]

Georgia's problem this year is that they have a roster full of 4 and 5 stars but no QB. The college game is evolving into the pro game in that you cannot compete for championships without a top notch QB. Even Fromm who is disparaged by Uga fans ( a bit unfairly imo) got them to within a whisker of a NC and was good enough to make a roster somewhere in the league.

I have said this before but looking at average recruiting rankings doesn't tell the full picture. Say CGC recruits 24 players in this cycle, all 4 and 5 stars. All have offers from the top 5 or 6 "glamour schools". Say 8 are WR's, 8 are RB's and 8 are CB's. We would look good in the national recruit rankings.Probably top 10. But in 2 years we would be right where we are now record wise.

I agree on QB play but look at what UGA had and should have had. 2018 they brought in 5 star Justin Fields. 2019 they bring in 4 star Dwan Mathis. 2020 they brought in 4 star Carson Beck, and two transfers a former 5 star QB JT Daniels, and Jamie Newman a 3 star who played well above his ranking. Somehow with that stable of talent coming through they ended up playing a 2 star QB this year. It isn't just bad luck that got them in their position. The coaches have done an awful job handling that position.

 

[WreckinGT]

If quality "coaching" were worth so much as you claim it does:

And the alleged "quality coach" has that Team from M-F to practice them, develop them, and come up with strategy for GameDays, then how does MTSU happen, then how does 2015 happen?

The Coaching is THE ONLY VARIABLE that never changes

Coaches just don't get dumber over time with more experience, what does happen is they lose TALENTED PLAYERS due to injury or other reasons

The only variable that constantly changes is THE PLAYERS, injuries change who Plays, and Graduation & leaving to pursue the NFL changes who Plays

Was there any difference in Boss Ross in his first 2 years vs. in his MNC year; sure there was, THE PLAYERS got better, more experienced, and they were able to execute Ross's "10% contribution" to the Max and that's what led to that MNC Season

Les Miles won a MNC at LSU and was nipping at Saban's heels, if "coaching" were really worth more than 10% like you claim, shouldn't he be able to make Kansas a consistent 8-4 Team in a much easier Big12, despite the lesser Talent on the Team?

I trust Urban Meyer when he said "Recrootin' is 80% responsible for a Coach's Success" (wins & losses), I'll let you fill in the Blanks ---- you tell me how much is leftover for Player Development, and how much is leftover for Game Day "Coaching"?

Urban Meyer is a great example actually. He took over a 2-9 BGSU team and won 8 and 9 games with them the next two years. He took over a 5-6 Utah team and won 12 and 13 games with them the next two years. He took over a 7-5 Florida team and won 9 games in year one and the National Championship year two. He had very little time in each of those cases to do much to the overall talent levels of those programs but somehow substantially improved their programs anyways. If it wasn't coaching then how did he do it?

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

I think if you go look at the 1990 team, part of the big success was that we had guys from all over on that team. Use the academics to your advantage if you can find intelligent elite talent.

But you're absolutely right, it is pricey to recruit nationally. I just think that would be the better investment if we want true elite recruiting.

Agreed. But that was a time before recruiting services. Today, because info is so readily available there aren’t the “unknown”players anymore. So a team like GT can’t just sweep in and take a kid from New Jersey because everybody else has the same info. I’m sure Collins is looking, like you wish, but with the talent here and the ability to be at their doorstep within an hour is this staffs strength. Collins got the OLineman from Texas last year which is amazing. I don’t know the back story, but with the number of teams in Texas I’d say that’s a good start unless the kid was a reach and never sees the field.

 

[takethepoints]

Here's a fact that cannot be argued:

The Previous HC Recruited us into a hole so deep that in his last 5 Seasons as HC we were 1-4 vs Duke, what made it worse is that Duke ain't UGA or Clemson talent-wise, and then to top that off and pour more salt in our wounds, Duke was kicking our teeth in with Academic Qualifiers from GA HSs

Gameday Coaching is only abt 10% of what makes a Team win Games

80% Recrootin'
10% Player Development, Practice & Position Specific Instruction
10% In-Game Decision Making

Almost 100% of P5 HCs will tell you something very similar to what I listed above, with maybe slight variances in the percentages of the last 2 Areas

The Previous HC deluded our Fanbase into thinking that Coaching & Strategy & Fancy Playcalling wins Games, and that was never the case, it was always Talent

After Chan was fired we should've hired a Recruiter-first kinda guy, because when you have to fire that Guy, at least you have a Program that's attractive for the "right reasons"

You never want your Program to be attractive for the sole reason that is it a Pwr5 Job and there are only 65 of those Jobs in the Country, that's what the Previous HC left us with, we were only attractive because we are 1 of 65 Pwr5 Jobs in the Country

Think about that for a minute, after the 11 years on the GTAA Payroll, what did the Previous HC leave behind that would make GT FB attractive to the next guy?

If the next guy had been, say, Jeff Moncken, quite a lot. If it had been Bo Bohannon, quite a lot. If it had been Willie Fritz, quite a lot. If it had been Steve Satterfield, enough. But, as you say, we didn't hire them. Instead we hired a guy who will be lucky to have won 6 games in the last two years. And who will be 0 - 2 against Duke (you heard it here first) directly.

Well, I don't blame him for that; he came at Temple with very set ideas about what he wanted to do, whether his ideas fit the talent available or not, and he's doing the same thing at Tech. Maybe that will work; it did at Temple, albeit at a very different level of competition. Maybe your visions of recruiting sugarplums will dance right out of your head and onto the field. But I can guarantee you one thing: it won't be done with the methods you've been pushing. And, of course, maybe not.

 

[TheJuiceIsLoose]

Urban Meyer is a great example actually. He took over a 2-9 BGSU team and won 8 and 9 games with them the next two years. He took over a 5-6 Utah team and won 12 and 13 games with them the next two years. He took over a 7-5 Florida team and won 9 games in year one and the National Championship year two. He had very little time in each of those cases to do much to the overall talent levels of those programs but somehow substantially improved their programs anyways. If it wasn't coaching then how did he do it?

Simple

Urban Meyer believes in "Roster Mgmt & Processing" Players that don't live up to the "standard", he culls the Roster of non producers and finds better Players

If GT had our own T. Boone Pickens where money wasn't an issue, Urban would never take the HC Job here, because the GTAA & the Institute's Admin would not let him "control the Roster" in any way he sees fit

When Satterfield walked in the Louisville the same off-Season that we hired CGC, he immediately released all prior Commits from their Schollies

Urban Meyer is a FOOTBALL COACH, he believes that FB can be #1 to a Player and as long as Academics is #1a then the Player can still get a great education and as the HC he can "peacefully co-exist with University Administration"

Everywhere Urban goes he purges non-producers like a GT Alum does in Corp America when he takes over an unproductive Business Unit

Urban simply applies the ruthlessness to CFB that GT Alums apply to Corp America, GT Alums have no soft spot for non Productive people in their Corp Careers, but for some reason they do for FB players that don't produce while they are on scholly

Every HC that has quick turnarounds in W-L records do it with Roster Mgmt & Processing Players, there are no quick turnarounds with 25 yearly schollies, given the fact that only half of those incoming T-Fr will be physically ready to Play CFB at the G5 level or higher

While you see "genius coaching and genius play-calling" as the Reason for Urban's success, I see CFB as it is played in 2020

GT has to make a decision, do we Play by the Rules that Dodd did in 1952 or do we Play by the Rules that the rest of the Pwr5 plays by in 2020

 

[4shotB]

Urban Meyer is a great example actually. He took over a 2-9 BGSU team and won 8 and 9 games with them the next two years. He took over a 5-6 Utah team and won 12 and 13 games with them the next two years. He took over a 7-5 Florida team and won 9 games in year one and the National Championship year two. He had very little time in each of those cases to do much to the overall talent levels of those programs but somehow substantially improved their programs anyways. If it wasn't coaching then how did he do it?

Good point. It was coaching but there may be more to that backstory than you or I know. It may be possible that he followed good recruiters/bad coaches so that he inherited talent that needed leadership. In my prior lifetime I was asked to turnaround an operation that was losing $$$ (lots of it). We were able to get it righted fairly quickly simply because the guy before was incompetent (politely putting it). People, especially those who have suffered under terrible leadership, do respond quickly when the problem is removed. So maybe Urban followed the B+++ L++++ type of coach.

So maybe UM (no doing he is indeed a great coach) inherited talent that was far better than the records indicated. I would argue (without saying anything about the future) that CGC inherited the exact opposite - a program that had great leadership but talent worse than the competition's. there is talent on our field but our best players are freshmen and sophomores.

 

[takethepoints]

I understand what you are saying, I just disagree completely. There are lots of schools with good academic reputations who put much more of an emphasis on sports than we do who have no problem attracting students and grant money. We just like to think we are different at Tech, but we really aren’t.

There aren't. There are a lot of public general universities "… with good academic reputations who put much more of an emphasis on sports than we do who have no problem attracting students and grant money." The only other engineering institution that even fields a Div 1 football team is Rice.

I mean, we've been over this ad nauseum here; Tech really is different and it's role in Georgia is as well. The kind of stuff they do at UNC (they still do it; don't be deceived), for instance, would have very different effects at Tech. Or, at least, I think it would. I'm basing that on my acquaintance with many faculty members at the place more then anything else. To a person, they'd be happy to see Tech go Div 3 tomorrow, but they understand that they have to put up with the athletic program to keep the alums quiet. But their forbearance has it's limits, especially when so many of the students don't really care one way or the other.

I want Tech to have a successful Div 1 football program, in the ACC by preference, or in another conference if necessary. But I want it to be a program I can hold my head up about when I go to the games. It's that simple.

 

[Milwaukee]

Simple

Urban Meyer believes in "Roster Mgmt & Processing" Players that don't live up to the "standard", he culls the Roster of non producers and finds better Players

If GT had our own T. Boone Pickens where money wasn't an issue, Urban would never take the HC Job here, because the GTAA & the Institute's Admin would not let him "control the Roster" in any way he sees fit

When Satterfield walked in the Louisville the same off-Season that we hired CGC, he immediately released all prior Commits from their Schollies

Urban Meyer is a FOOTBALL COACH, he believes that FB can be #1 to a Player and as long as Academics is #1a then the Player can still get a great education and as the HC he can "peacefully co-exist with University Administration"

Everywhere Urban goes he purges non-producers like a GT Alum does in Corp America when he takes over an unproductive Business Unit

Urban simply applies the ruthlessness to CFB that GT Alums apply to Corp America, GT Alums have no soft spot for non Productive people in their Corp Careers, but for some reason they do for FB players that don't produce while they are on scholly

Every HC that has quick turnarounds in W-L records do it with Roster Mgmt & Processing Players, there are no quick turnarounds with 25 yearly schollies, given the fact that only half of those incoming T-Fr will be physically ready to Play CFB at the G5 level or higher

While you see "genius coaching and genius play-calling" as the Reason for Urban's success, I see CFB as it is played in 2020

GT has to make a decision, do we Play by the Rules that Dodd did in 1952 or do we Play by the Rules that the rest of the Pwr5 plays by in 2020

Also look at the recruiting classes at FLA the prior 3 yrs before Urban arrived. I’m a huge Urban fanboy personally but it ain’t like he turned water into wine, so that is a bad example. But he’s one of the best to ever do it imo. His ascension is amazing at BG and Utah imo. Anytime someone throws out a Saban or an Urban example as some sort of baseline is just silly and they’re doing so to be unrealistic on purpose.
On a more important note than this funny thread is this: as cfb fans what do we have to do and how much longer do we have to wait until Urban ends up at USC and all things are well again in cfb? I need Urban at USC to complete me.

 

[takethepoints]

Good point. It was coaching but there may be more to that backstory than you or I know. It may be possible that he followed good recruiters/bad coaches so that he inherited talent that needed leadership. In my prior lifetime I was asked to turnaround an operation that was losing $$$ (lots of it). We were able to get it righted fairly quickly simply because the guy before was incompetent (politely putting it). People, especially those who have suffered under terrible leadership, do respond quickly when the problem is removed. So maybe Urban followed the B+++ L++++ type of coach.

So maybe UM (no doing he is indeed a great coach) inherited talent that was far better than the records indicated. I would argue (without saying anything about the future) that CGC inherited the exact opposite - a program that had great leadership but talent worse than the competition's. there is talent on our field but our best players are freshmen and sophomores.

Well … our talent was fine, as far as it went.

On Meyer, to take his first big jobs as examples. He inherited Alex Smith at Utah. Enough said. Then he went to Florida and inherited Chris Leak. Enough said, squared. He didn't recruit either one of these players, but he knew a winner when he saw him at practice. I mean, he has always had off-field discipline issues with his teams, but he can coach.

Oth, I wouldn't want his methods of program management (I stretch the term here) to become regular practice at Tech.

 

[Sheboygan]

Elite play in the trenches will win a lot of games, but it won’t win championships. Championships in today’s era of college football are almost always determined by which QB plays the best. Since Georgia is a topic of conversation, just look at them for evidence. Quite possibly the best combination of OL and DL over the past 4 years yet they only have 1 conference championship to show for it because of their lack of QB play. FWIW, their lone championship occurred in the year they had the best QB play. They also took a lead into the second half of the natty based on QB play, but lost their lead once Tua came in. Case and point, QB is the most important position on the field.

That's why I said almost. You can be the most elite QB in college and if you can't run the ball and are running for your life when passing, you will not win championships. And if you cant stop the run, or pass rush an elite QB , you will be in a track meet every game. It's still a TEAM sport.

 

[7979]

If quality "coaching" were worth so much as you claim it does:

And the alleged "quality coach" has that Team from M-F to practice them, develop them, and come up with strategy for GameDays, then how does MTSU happen, then how does 2015 happen?

The Coaching is THE ONLY VARIABLE that never changes

Coaches just don't get dumber over time with more experience, what does happen is they lose TALENTED PLAYERS due to injury or other reasons

The only variable that constantly changes is THE PLAYERS, injuries change who Plays, and Graduation & leaving to pursue the NFL changes who Plays

Was there any difference in Boss Ross in his first 2 years vs. in his MNC year; sure there was, THE PLAYERS got better, more experienced, and they were able to execute Ross's "10% contribution" to the Max and that's what led to that MNC Season

Les Miles won a MNC at LSU and was nipping at Saban's heels, if "coaching" were really worth more than 10% like you claim, shouldn't he be able to make Kansas a consistent 8-4 Team in a much easier Big12, despite the lesser Talent on the Team?

I trust Urban Meyer when he said "Recrootin' is 80% responsible for a Coach's Success" (wins & losses), I'll let you fill in the Blanks ---- you tell me how much is leftover for Player Development, and how much is leftover for Game Day "Coaching"?

I agree with Juice here.. with the small caveat that "Coaches just don't get (smarter) with more experience..." either.....
Here's my math..
Coaching 10%
Kicking 10%
Front 5 D 10%
Back 6 D 10%
Front 5 O 10%
Skill O (less QB) 10%
QB 40%
I spent two minutes thinking about this so feel free to correct me....LOL!

 

[Vespidae]

I want Tech to have a successful Div 1 football program, in the ACC by preference, or in another conference if necessary. But I want it to be a program I can hold my head up about when I go to the games. It's that simple.

The reality is no one knows what the goal is. Has TStan for example, ever said, “My goal is to win championships. And that is how you will measure my leadership.”

I think it’s more vague than that. I would not be surprised to hear the AD goal is to play D1 well enough to get the ACCN revenue share. And if that’s 7-5 every year, fine.

I read comments that assert, “We will recruit better, win championships, build newer facilities and we’ll be a Top 10 program.” In 40 years, it’s never happened. The money has never flowed, the Hill has never relaxed standards, and he big recruits have never arrived.

We have become ... Vanderbilt.

 

[SteamWhistle]

Decisions have consequences.

 

[Coloradojacket]

When we talk about talent vs coaching and NFL Caliber players. For those of you that remember. Please tell me all the players from our 1990 NC team that played in the NFL on offense......yep none. Even defense Marco Coleman and Coleman Rudolph had a few seasons. Scott Sisson kicked a while. So explain again coaching vs NFL talent....

 

[Coloradojacket]

The reality is no one knows what the goal is. Has TStan for example, ever said, “My goal is to win championships. And that is how you will measure my leadership.”

I think it’s more vague than that. I would not be surprised to hear the AD goal is to play D1 well enough to get the ACCN revenue share. And if that’s 7-5 every year, fine.

I read comments that assert, “We will recruit better, win championships, build newer facilities and we’ll be a Top 10 program.” In 40 years, it’s never happened. The money has never flowed, the Hill has never relaxed standards, and he big recruits have never arrived.

We have become ... Vanderbilt.

Are you certain that we haven't been an over achieving Vanderbilt for many years.

 

[Vespidae]

Are you certain that we haven't been an over achieving Vanderbilt for many years.

No. I'm not. We might very well be.

I think we are far closer to being Vanderbilt than we are to being a UGA. The gap between Tech and Alabama in 1980 was big, but it wasn't THAT huge. Now, it's the Grand Canyon. Tech has a breakeven AA budget (maybe in a good year. We will probably lose a lot of money this year due to COVID.)

In addition to talent, you need infrastructure, operations, marketing, administration ... all of which cost $$$ that Tech doesn't have and will likely never have at scale. The rich are getting richer.

 

[JacketOff]

When we talk about talent vs coaching and NFL Caliber players. For those of you that remember. Please tell me all the players from our 1990 NC team that played in the NFL on offense......yep none. Even defense Marco Coleman and Coleman Rudolph had a few seasons. Scott Sisson kicked a while. So explain again coaching vs NFL talent....

WTH are you talking about? There were 10 players from the 1990 team that played in the NFL. Dude just look at the teams with the most players on active NFL rosters. Oregon is the only team outside the top 20 that has played for a national championship since 2010.

NFL players by college on 2020 rosters

Here are the most NFL players by college in 2020 and a list of every FBS and FCS school with at least one player in the NFL.

www.google.com

Coaching obviously matters, but talent is by far the most important aspect of a successful team.

 

[Coloradojacket]

WTH are you talking about? There were 10 players from the 1990 team that played in the NFL. Dude just look at the teams with the most players on active NFL rosters. Oregon is the only team outside the top 20 that has played for a national championship since 2010.

NFL players by college on 2020 rosters

Here are the most NFL players by college in 2020 and a list of every FBS and FCS school with at least one player in the NFL.

www.google.com

Coaching obviously matters, but talent is by far the most important aspect of a successful team.

No there weren't 10. And none of them played long. Shawn Jones....one of our top QBs was moved to safety. Coaching beats talent every time. Scheme scheme scheme. Go back and study Dodd

 

[JacketOff]

No there weren't 10. And none of them played long. Shawn Jones....one of our top QBs was moved to safety. Coaching beats talent every time. Scheme scheme scheme. Go back and study Dodd

There literally were 10 lmao. Do you just dismiss facts because it doesn’t fit your narrative? Here’s the list of Georgia Tech alumni that played in the NFL. The players who’s careers started between 1991 and 1994 played on the 1990 team.

Georgia Tech Players/Alumni | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Georgia Tech Players/Alumni

www.pro-football-reference.com

Here’s the list of Georgia Tech players drafted. The same logic applies. Anybody drafted between 1991 and 1994 was on the NC team. There were 11 players drafted. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/schools/georgiatech/drafted.htm

You just say things that aren’t even true with no evidence to back it up just because that’s the way you think/feel. Talent trumps coaching. Sorry to inform you of this fact.

 

[Coloradojacket]

There literally were 10 lmao. Do you just dismiss facts because it doesn’t fit your narrative? Here’s the list of Georgia Tech alumni that played in the NFL. The players who’s careers started between 1991 and 1994 played on the 1990 team.

Georgia Tech Players/Alumni | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Georgia Tech Players/Alumni

www.pro-football-reference.com

Here’s the list of Georgia Tech players drafted. The same logic applies. Anybody drafted between 1991 and 1994 was on the NC team. There were 11 players drafted. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/schools/georgiatech/drafted.htm

You just say things that aren’t even true with no evidence to back it up just because that’s the way you think/feel. Talent trumps coaching. Sorry to inform you of this fact.

So how many actually did anything in the NFL. Our best QB ever Joe Hamilton never played. College talent does not have to be NFL talent and Tech has very little of it and never will. And who cares. It is wins and losses and scheme.