A real Debate ( sorry don't make this about CPJ vs CGC )

forensicbuzz

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,479
Location
North Shore, Chicago
He attended GT during Dodd’s hey day. You thinking he developed his disdain for GT sports then?
I have no idea. But his upbringing was us not Duke, Cal, or Stanford. If he truly was that disdainful of athletics, which he might have been, that makes no sense. He followed probably the most pro-athletics president GT has ever had, who followed Pettit, our least athletic-supporting president.

I have to say, I kind of like the new guy. He seems to get it.
 

Skeptic

Helluva Engineer
Messages
6,007
My father thought Coach Dodd was a great coach and a great recruiter but was a terrible AD. Tech has not done well since 2000 because the game has evolved and we have been unable to attract near enough good players to compete with the factories. We do not have the money, nor the mindset to become a professional football factory. IIWII
It does not have to be and either-or proposition.
we can be competitive across the board but first we have to change that mindset.
 

Vespidae

Helluva Engineer
Messages
3,084
Location
Auburn, AL
Imho, Bama is gonna collapse for a long time once Saban leaves or declines the weight of expectations is too high. But, not yet.
I have been through all of the transitions for Alabama since Bear Bryant. I discussed this very point (the quote above) with my brother in law who has been involved in Alabama athletics (student, donor, booster) for 50+ years.

His thoughts were that the Alabama athletic department today bears no resemblance to the one in Bear's day. The size, money and staff is huge and in his opinion, as professional as one can be found in sports at any level, including pro. His opinion was that no one wants a repeat of Price, Dubose, Shula and that a) when Saban goes, it will be a very professional search and b) money will be no object to the best hire.

I would add that in today's NCAA, the Top Ten (Alabaman, Clemson, OSU, Oklahoma, LSU, Notre Dame, etc) are going to be the perennial top ten for a long time. They have visibility and pathway to both monetize NIL for SA's and ... have a path to the NFL. The odds are so skewed in these guys favor, the rest of the country is really playing for the Second 10. If they can manage even that.
 

Heisman's Ghost

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,524
Location
Albany Georgia
It does not have to be and either-or proposition.
we can be competitive across the board but first we have to change that mindset.
"...competitive..."? With whom? UGA, Clemson, Notre Dame, the other elite factories? Not a chance. Competitive with UNC, Virginia, Virginia Tech, Wake, NC State? Sure.
 

GTRX7

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,449
Location
Atlanta
I think you can look at Georgia Tech to see an example of "makes a power house football team fall and start becoming ordinary or below average team ?"

From 1902-1963 (61 years) GT Football has an all-time record of 380-191-32 (.630 winning %) and has 5 SEC Championships, 3 Southern Conference Championships, and 5 SIAA Championships and national championships in 1917, 1928, 1952. Georgia Tech's COFH record was 27-26-5 (.630 winning %).

To put this all in perspective, from 1964 to 1982, GT Football compiled an unimpressive record of 104-100-5 (.497 winning %) with 0 titles in the independence span before joining the ACC in 1983. In the ACC starting from 1983 to 2020, GT Football compiled a record of 251-205-4 (.545 winning %) with 3 ACC Championships, and a national championships in 1990.

From 1964 to 2020 (56 years) GT Football has an all-time record of 355-305-4 (.534 winning %) and has 3 ACC Championships, and a national championships in 1990. Georgia Tech's COFH record is 14-41(.254 winning %).


I think we can learn a couple of things from this.
1. Conference Membership is greater than 1 College or University
2. While Coach Dodd and President Edwin Harrison envisioned Tech eventually being the Notre Dame of the South and playing a national football schedule, Georgia Tech never reached the glory days of their time in the SEC and Georgia Tech joined the ACC in 1983 as they needed conference membership to survive.
3. Coach Bobby Dodd and President Edwin Harrison took a power house football program and jump started it in becoming an ordinary or below average program
I think it is hard to ignore the impact of integration on the landscape of college football. Once the southern schools integrated, the player pool, recruiting, and success of many programs changed drastically (for a variety of complicated reasons that I do not care to try to break down). You seem to separate Tech's success into the early and the modern eras, with the modern era being 1964-2020. I don't think it is entirely a coincidence that modern era generally corresponds to integration as well. The first black player in the ACC was 1963 and the first at Tech was 1969.
 

Coloradojacket

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,962
I think it is hard to ignore the impact of integration on the landscape of college football. Once the southern schools integrated, the player pool, recruiting, and success of many programs changed drastically (for a variety of complicated reasons that I do not care to try to break down). You seem to separate Tech's success into the early and the modern eras, with the modern era being 1964-2020. I don't think it is entirely a coincidence that modern era generally corresponds to integration as well. The first black player in the ACC was 1963 and the first at Tech was 1969.
The modern era is really 1970 on. It is interesting that we seem to look at all the Dodd years as us being some power when really it was only 51,52 and 56. Other than 66, we were just your average 7 win team. I would say that his record in the 60's if it was today would get him fired. Recruiting players has always been an issue at Tech.
 

Oakland

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
795
Location
Georgia
I think I would adjust those years. Even 1970 was 50 years ago. I'd start around the late 1990s, but I agree with you guys.
 

Oldgoldandwhite

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,074
I think it is hard to ignore the impact of integration on the landscape of college football. Once the southern schools integrated, the player pool, recruiting, and success of many programs changed drastically (for a variety of complicated reasons that I do not care to try to break down). You seem to separate Tech's success into the early and the modern eras, with the modern era being 1964-2020. I don't think it is entirely a coincidence that modern era generally corresponds to integration as well. The first black player in the ACC was 1963 and the first at Tech was 1969.
The gorilla in the room that no one wants to discuss.
 

JacketOff

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,489
The modern era is really 1970 on. It is interesting that we seem to look at all the Dodd years as us being some power when really it was only 51,52 and 56. Other than 66, we were just your average 7 win team. I would say that his record in the 60's if it was today would get him fired. Recruiting players has always been an issue at Tech.
There’s literally no way you just said this. At this point all of your posts are just blatant trolls.
 

Northeast Stinger

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,753
The modern era is really 1970 on. It is interesting that we seem to look at all the Dodd years as us being some power when really it was only 51,52 and 56. Other than 66, we were just your average 7 win team. I would say that his record in the 60's if it was today would get him fired. Recruiting players has always been an issue at Tech.
Perspective is important here. First, most of what you are saying is true, but….1. Dodd can’t be compared to today, he can only be compared to other coaches of his day and, in that sense, he was one of the best. 2. Tech’s record also compares favorably to other teams of that era. 3. Recruiting has always been hard at Tech but Tech was more competitive in that era also and there wasn’t the gap in talent that we see today.
 

jgtengineer

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,568
Perspective is important here. First, most of what you are saying is true, but….1. Dodd can’t be compared to today, he can only be compared to other coaches of his day and, in that sense, he was one of the best. 2. Tech’s record also compares favorably to other teams of that era. 3. Recruiting has always been hard at Tech but Tech was more competitive in that era also and there wasn’t the gap in talent that we see today.
The internet and reach has TRULY changed the game more than anything else. For instance even when I was going to highschool getting tape to schools was a matter of cutting up actual tape copies for highlights, digital camera's existed but unless you had a richer school most game film was in color on vhs recorders (we even did a few black and white film studies) And this was just in the early 2000s. Rivals and scout etc were just becoming a thing.

Once that happens now suddenly everyone has a extended recruiting, everyones parents are sitting in the crowd recording to make highlight tapes. Its easier, you can teach a sports film elective and have 30 kids doing highlight videos. So now your primary recruiters job is to sit there and go through the recruiting sites, flag the candidates you want to take a further look and and take a look it doesn't matter where they are. What this means is that now the rich get much much richer, anyone who is a hidden gym isn't for long. Think about how many times CPJ's staff would offer a kid then after they had an offer from us suddenly they got offers lots of places. Now it wasn't because the kid wasn't deserving of those offers. But it does mean that the CPJ method of finding talent worked, even if we didn't land it. Honestly this is what Collins excelled at too once upon a time. Him and Smith. Now he's playing the current recruiting game by basically making tech a social media event which is great and will target kid sint eh social media age. But in the end we are still competing very very different than how things were even at the beginning of chans time with us. Much less how it was int eh 70s and 80s.
 

LibertyTurns

Helluva Engineer
Messages
5,805
The internet and reach has TRULY changed the game more than anything else. For instance even when I was going to highschool getting tape to schools was a matter of cutting up actual tape copies for highlights, digital camera's existed but unless you had a richer school most game film was in color on vhs recorders (we even did a few black and white film studies) And this was just in the early 2000s. Rivals and scout etc were just becoming a thing.

Once that happens now suddenly everyone has a extended recruiting, everyones parents are sitting in the crowd recording to make highlight tapes. Its easier, you can teach a sports film elective and have 30 kids doing highlight videos. So now your primary recruiters job is to sit there and go through the recruiting sites, flag the candidates you want to take a further look and and take a look it doesn't matter where they are. What this means is that now the rich get much much richer, anyone who is a hidden gym isn't for long. Think about how many times CPJ's staff would offer a kid then after they had an offer from us suddenly they got offers lots of places. Now it wasn't because the kid wasn't deserving of those offers. But it does mean that the CPJ method of finding talent worked, even if we didn't land it. Honestly this is what Collins excelled at too once upon a time. Him and Smith. Now he's playing the current recruiting game by basically making tech a social media event which is great and will target kid sint eh social media age. But in the end we are still competing very very different than how things were even at the beginning of chans time with us. Much less how it was int eh 70s and 80s.
The social media aspect is probably what many of us “old guys” fail to grasp appropriately. Personally, it to me looks all like BS but to today’s kids it’s a huge deal. I am not hard over on any approach, just make what you do work. It looks like CGC knows how to to it well. If he can recruit well, that’s one leg of the stool for a solid program. Hopefully with good coaching wins come from that based of talented recruits & then the money follows. If so, we hit the jackpot. I’m here for the ride so praying he’s got what it takes.

6 weeks until toes meets leather, Go Jackets!
 

Skeptic

Helluva Engineer
Messages
6,007
"...competitive..."? With whom? UGA, Clemson, Notre Dame, the other elite factories? Not a chance. Competitive with UNC, Virginia, Virginia Tech, Wake, NC State? Sure.
Then define the level of competition that would make you a happy camper. If your first tier is it, then you are out of luck because we will never be at that level no matter how we beat our chests. Knock off one of them once in awhile -- my vote is for ND because they have been overrated since Rockne -- and compete hard with your second tier, which ain't a bad one by the way. The problem that Collins will have or is having depending on your viewpoint, is that as he improves recruiting and skill positions and gets better, the rest of the ACC is getting better, so just to remain where we are we have to improve. Personally I have no aspirations of a NC at Tech. That's just me though.
 

Heisman's Ghost

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,524
Location
Albany Georgia
Then define the level of competition that would make you a happy camper. If your first tier is it, then you are out of luck because we will never be at that level no matter how we beat our chests. Knock off one of them once in awhile -- my vote is for ND because they have been overrated since Rockne -- and compete hard with your second tier, which ain't a bad one by the way. The problem that Collins will have or is having depending on your viewpoint, is that as he improves recruiting and skill positions and gets better, the rest of the ACC is getting better, so just to remain where we are we have to improve. Personally I have no aspirations of a NC at Tech. That's just me though.
Right now, I must say that being "competitive" is not what I am looking for...winning ball games is what I am looking for. Another season of three wins and this program will be drifting close to being irrelevant even in the Coastal which is pretty disheartening as fans of Duke, Vanderbilt, Syracuse, Tulane, and other bottom feeders can attest.
 
Top