A real Debate ( sorry don't make this about CPJ vs CGC )

Heisman's Ghost

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Good points although number 3 may get some people upset Dodd was a great coach but maybe as an AD well ......... you could say other past AD;s after him and past presidents did hurt us
My father thought Coach Dodd was a great coach and a great recruiter but was a terrible AD. Tech has not done well since 2000 because the game has evolved and we have been unable to attract near enough good players to compete with the factories. We do not have the money, nor the mindset to become a professional football factory. IIWII
 

4shotB

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My father thought Coach Dodd was a great coach and a great recruiter but was a terrible AD. Tech has not done well since 2000 because the game has evolved and we have been unable to attract near enough good players to compete with the factories. We do not have the money, nor the mindset to become a professional football factory. IIWII
It’s the mindset only. Everything else flows out of that. When there is the will there is always the way. For the most part, GT ( school leadership as well as fan base/alumni) are content with what we are. If we weren’t things would be different.
 

Heisman's Ghost

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Football teams need leadership to be successful. There are a handful of players which can make disproportionate impact on their own, but nearly all the time how the pieces coordinate determines success. Leadership can come from many places and in many different forms, not all of them psychologically ideal. But lacking leadership is lacking structure, motivation, and coordination. Sadly, some of the toxic hypocritical figures can be the most enticing, and becoming an idol can be a successful form of leadership, but false idols often leave a wake of skeletons behind them. Those skeletons can create systemic norms which are very difficult to modify even with a completely new staff and with significant turnover of personnel.

There's a funny and fictitious illustration of this principle:
There you go Y with your usual monkey business.
 

Technut1990

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Football teams need leadership to be successful. There are a handful of players which can make disproportionate impact on their own, but nearly all the time how the pieces coordinate determines success. Leadership can come from many places and in many different forms, not all of them psychologically ideal. But lacking leadership is lacking structure, motivation, and coordination. Sadly, some of the toxic hypocritical figures can be the most enticing, and becoming an idol can be a successful form of leadership, but false idols often leave a wake of skeletons behind them. Those skeletons can create systemic norms which are very difficult to modify even with a completely new staff and with significant turnover of personnel.

There's a funny and fictitious illustration of this principle:

but in my experience when any monkey questions the system, one monkey gets fired and all of the others decide the system is just fine.
 

RichardFrazier

Georgia Tech Fan
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I'd put money first. Tech's a good example here. When Paul first became coach Tech was spending about the same as other ACC programs, except FSU. By the time he left, Tech was being outspent by Duke. This especially impacted recruiting, particularly identifying potential future recruits. The new regime at the ADs office is determined that we at least catch up with the league, excepting Clemson. Thank God for that.

Coaching second. Head coaching, that is. Tech has had a string of good head coaches who knew how to navigate the environment and deliver. With a few exceptions, our coaches have been able to deliver 7 wins a year like clockwork. (Btw, I expect that Collins will do this as well.) But … it has been rare for other schools like Tech (Purdue and Rice) to pull that off. I don't know if that's a matter of the program consistently punching above its weight in recruiting head coaches, but that seems to be it.
Great Points.. the AD hire of Mike Bobinski was the #1 reason for lack of funding. I believe CPJ has even alluded to it.
 

SJBryan

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LUCK, and in a lot of ways. It takes a special recruiting class or two and I don’t mean of 5-Star Studs with all the talent, I mean a special class of players “under the radar” so to speak that have a couple of back to back seasons with great results. That turns heads of kids that normally wouldn’t even consider it. Saban has created a dynasty that will never be replaced but he stays successful because of the results. Kids keep going because it’s “HOT” and the place to go and at this stage of the game, he can pick and choose. I think the same about Coach K at Duke. It’s not hard to be a good Coach with the best players from around the world on your team. Could those Coaches come to your school and do the same thing? Could Saban come to Tech and have them in the National Championship game in 2-3 years ..... No and neither could anyone else. Once Luck strikes- its up
To you to maintain the fire but if you never get lucky, your fire just smolders. Watch Clemson over the next few years- sizzle with some players nobody wanted - Deshaun Watson, get the big player Trevor Lawrence, now he’s gone. If the new kid falters, Clemson will fall off
 

IM79

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The two people responsible fo Georgia Tech pulling out of the SEC are HC/AD Bobby Dodd and President Edwin Harrison, END of STORY!
Well, there was also a guy named Chip Robert who had a lot of power in AA back then.

Furman Bisher told me that Dodd had changed his mind and wanted to stay in the SEC, but Harrison and Mr Chip both wanted to leave and they over ruled him and so we withdrew from the SEC.
 

forensicbuzz

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LUCK, and in a lot of ways. It takes a special recruiting class or two and I don’t mean of 5-Star Studs with all the talent, I mean a special class of players “under the radar” so to speak that have a couple of back to back seasons with great results. That turns heads of kids that normally wouldn’t even consider it. Saban has created a dynasty that will never be replaced but he stays successful because of the results. Kids keep going because it’s “HOT” and the place to go and at this stage of the game, he can pick and choose. I think the same about Coach K at Duke. It’s not hard to be a good Coach with the best players from around the world on your team. Could those Coaches come to your school and do the same thing? Could Saban come to Tech and have them in the National Championship game in 2-3 years ..... No and neither could anyone else. Once Luck strikes- its up
To you to maintain the fire but if you never get lucky, your fire just smolders. Watch Clemson over the next few years- sizzle with some players nobody wanted - Deshaun Watson, get the big player Trevor Lawrence, now he’s gone. If the new kid falters, Clemson will fall off
Saban did it at Michigan State, LSU, and Alabama. I think he could do it at GT, especially now. Not a NC in 2-3 years, but the possibility in 5-6, for sure. He would immediately recruit Top 20 classes, maybe even Top 10 classes. But that's not going to happen, so it's not worth the thought experiment.

Teams fluctuate with their coaching staff. Alabama did it. USCw did it, tOSU did it, Michigan did it, ND did it. OSU did it, Texas is doing it, UF is doing it, etc. All the power teams ebb and flow. The thing is to flow more than you ebb, which they do, and when they flow, it's championship-level flowing.
 

SOWEGA Jacket

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I agree with this but for some reason, UGA's 40 year drought cannot be explained as just coaching. I don't know what it is but when you are ahead with mere seconds to play against Alabama and have them 4th and a mile to go and manage to not just give up a first down but a touchdown, well, there has to be some serious karma at work. Georgia, like Miami, Notre Dame, Texas, and a few others manage to do less with more talent. Would we have such problems. Someone feel free to correct me but it SEEMS to me that the overall number of true elite factory schools seem to be getting smaller than in years past. I count the number of teams with legit chances of going all the way at about ten or so: UGA, Alabama, Clemson, Ohio State, Oklahoma, Penn State, LSU, Notre Dame, and perhaps Texas or Florida. Anyone else?
It wasn’t 4th down. It was 2nd and 26 which is why the DB had to play closer to the LOS which is why he got burned by the freshman receiver. If it was 4th down you can bet the coverage would have been deeper.

As for UGA unable to finish, at this point it’s mental. My dog friends are now even openly joking about the choking. They and all of us have seen these over and over. Daniels has an arm. Eason also had an arm as did all their QB’s except maybe Fromm was weaker. But Daniels also will air mail balls into DB’s arms. Their RB’s are no where near the level of Moreno, Swift, Chubb, or Michel. They are good RB’s but not game changers. Their only path forward is to win it all when it’s on the line. No one cares if they beat Florida or Auburn anymore. It comes down to making the plays when the games that matter are on the line.
 

Heisman's Ghost

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It wasn’t 4th down. It was 2nd and 26 which is why the DB had to play closer to the LOS which is why he got burned by the freshman receiver. If it was 4th down you can bet the coverage would have been deeper.

As for UGA unable to finish, at this point it’s mental. My dog friends are now even openly joking about the choking. They and all of us have seen these over and over. Daniels has an arm. Eason also had an arm as did all their QB’s except maybe Fromm was weaker. But Daniels also will air mail balls into DB’s arms. Their RB’s are no where near the level of Moreno, Swift, Chubb, or Michel. They are good RB’s but not game changers. Their only path forward is to win it all when it’s on the line. No one cares if they beat Florida or Auburn anymore. It comes down to making the plays when the games that matter are on the line.
Quite so. Yet another senior moment. Seems like the Tide used Ripley as a decoy lining him up in the slot away from the play and ran a back in motion in that direction as well. The only guy on the left side was the speedster who went right past the UGA corner who I guess was expecting help from the safety on that side. Dynasties have a habit of making great plays like that.
 

jacketup

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Great Points.. the AD hire of Mike Bobinski was the #1 reason for lack of funding. I believe CPJ has even alluded to it.
I'm no Bobinski fan, but he inherited a mess. Homer retired with money in the bank. Braine spent it and did little in the way of fund raising. Radakovich spent money we didn't have trying to keep up. Bobinski tried to get things under control, which put us behind other programs. We needed fund raising, which is what Stansbury is trying to do. The financial problems really go back to Clough's buddy Braine, who was a disaster of an AD.
 

takethepoints

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Far more common, is the plight of the also ran and never do wells of college football. Vanderbilt, Tulane, Boston College, Wake Forest, Duke, Kansas, Illinois, Purdue, Washington State, Oregon State, California, have no chance. None, zero, zilch, nada of ever being much more than punching bags for the factories. We are somewhere in between but another bad year will put us drifting near to a lee shore, too close for comfort. IMHO
Oh? I think this list shows how important head coaching is. Vandy was good under Franklin, BC under O'Brien, Purdue under Tiller, Duke under Cutliffe (let's give the devil his due here), WSU under Leach, California under Tedford, OSU under Erikson (he's a crook, but he knows good football players when he see them), and - most relevant example - Wake under Grobe and Clawson, have all given "better" programs fits. Then you can look at programs that fire really good head coaches - Tennessee and Texas A&M stand out - and suddenly find themselves up the creek without an oar.

Money is still number one and it can lose you a good head coach - see FSU - but good head coaching is probably the most important element after that. IMHO, of course.
 

LibertyTurns

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I'm no Bobinski fan, but he inherited a mess. Homer retired with money in the bank. Braine spent it and did little in the way of fund raising. Radakovich spent money we didn't have trying to keep up. Bobinski tried to get things under control, which put us behind other programs. We needed fund raising, which is what Stansbury is trying to do. The financial problems really go back to Clough's buddy Braine, who was a disaster of an AD.
Clough hated sports. Small group of us met him in LA for dinner, drinks, etc back in the Chan days. Think it was early ’06 and we had gone 5 years straight of 7-5. He spent about 30 mins talking academics, GTRI, etc then opened for questions. Started off with a football question, then another, followed by more football questions. There were some basketball questions & somebody asked about the baseball team. After about 90 mins he bolted, none too happy none of the alums wanted to talk about anything besides sports. I’m not sure there was a single non-sports question asked.

The man did a lot for GT, but I believe he did not respect or value our student athletes. In my opinion he thought most of them did not belong on campus. I’ve only spoken to him 8 or 10 times though, always surrounded by fans and former athletes. Never had him 1 on 1, so maybe someone has a different opinion. Kinda fits with his Berkeley, Dook, Stanford before they had decent sports upbringing.
 

slugboy

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1. Defense

2. Recruiting
3. Offensive Linemen
4. Coaching
5. Quarterback
6. Luck
7. Ludicrous Money

Like someone else said, put Ludicrous Money at #1. I’d put luck close behind.

I'm no Bobinski fan, but he inherited a mess. Homer retired with money in the bank. Braine spent it and did little in the way of fund raising. Radakovich spent money we didn't have trying to keep up. Bobinski tried to get things under control, which put us behind other programs. We needed fund raising, which is what Stansbury is trying to do. The financial problems really go back to Clough's buddy Braine, who was a disaster of an AD.

I’ve seen several people refer to Braine as Clough’s “buddy”. Braine had years of success at VT, which gave him a lot of latitude. He didn’t duplicate that track record here. Why do you think it’s a personal thing?
 

Northeast Stinger

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In the past dozen years or so, the biggest powerhouses to fall from grace, so to speak, have done so for a variety of reasons but most of the time it is self inflicted. Just off the top of my head the steepest falls have been Nebraska, Tennessee, Auburn, and perhaps, Michigan. There are likely others but I assume you mean legit nationally ranked elite factories. Nebraska and Tennessee were bedeviled by some pretty bad coaching hires and neither has the recruiting chops to survive multiple years of chaos the way, say UGA or Alabama can. Auburn is still a formidable football factory but suffers in comparison to the monster created by Saban. Michigan is similar with its nemesis being Ohio State. Some places just seem to, for whatever reason, consistently underachieve relative to their usually glittering recruiting classes. Miami, UNC, and Texas come to mind although the Longhorns did win a fairly recent national championship. It is hard to imagine now but once upon a time schools like Arkansas, Missouri, BYU, and Pitt were seen as being on the cusp of greatness but it was a mirage. For the past 40 years, UCLA has beckoned coaches of promise and has wrecked many a reputation and career. There really are not that many teams in this situation. Far more common, is the plight of the also ran and never do wells of college football. Vanderbilt, Tulane, Boston College, Wake Forest, Duke, Kansas, Illinois, Purdue, Washington State, Oregon State, California, have no chance. None, zero, zilch, nada of ever being much more than punching bags for the factories. We are somewhere in between but another bad year will put us drifting near to a lee shore, too close for comfort. IMHO
One could argue that Tulane was a power until their administration starting limiting football scholarships in the 1950s. Duke was also a power at one time under Wallace Wade. Both went through soul searching over how to balance football with academics.

None of this negates your point however. I especially appreciate your comments about Tennessee, Auburn, Missouri, Michigan and Nebraska. Nebraska and Michigan are especially puzzling given that historically they have had the most loyal fan bases of any school, routinely packing their stadiums.
 

Northeast Stinger

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Saban did it at Michigan State, LSU, and Alabama. I think he could do it at GT, especially now. Not a NC in 2-3 years, but the possibility in 5-6, for sure. He would immediately recruit Top 20 classes, maybe even Top 10 classes. But that's not going to happen, so it's not worth the thought experiment.

Teams fluctuate with their coaching staff. Alabama did it. USCw did it, tOSU did it, Michigan did it, ND did it. OSU did it, Texas is doing it, UF is doing it, etc. All the power teams ebb and flow. The thing is to flow more than you ebb, which they do, and when they flow, it's championship-level flowing.
Saban is the best of the best when it comes to creating a winning culture. No doubt. But in my opinion he was also lucky. He was never going to hit the upper echelons at Michigan State and caught a big break to get out of there when he could. Likewise he was not a great NFL coach where talent is a little more evenly distributed among teams. But going to a school like Alabama, where you already have a lot of advantages, was the perfect move for a coach of his ability. Compare Bill Curry’s record at Tech vs his record at ‘Bama to see how place can make a difference.
 
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