A real Debate ( sorry don't make this about CPJ vs CGC )

stech81

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This is only an example not about them about any college team. ( like FSU power house to below average )

What makes a power house football team fall and start becoming ordinary or below average team ?

recruiting ? ( but this was not the case for FSU) , Coaching ( change in new coach old players not liking the new staff, coaches not keeping up with the times )

School not willing to spend money like they did ( older alumni losing interest and not giving money)

Good assistant coaches getting hired away ( has not been the case for so one like Alabama )

Being at the top every team putting you as their game and making it impossible to play at 100% every game ,

Or just the way it is no one can stay at the top.

And which power house will be the next to fall ? ( My bet is it will be Clemson no real idea just my guess) Why did I pick them, if you have so many super players it gets to the point the new so called super players not not willing to wait their turn to start and move on to another team ( like uga QB did moving to Ohio State.
 

BCJacket

Jolly Good Fellow
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479
Complacency and momentum. It's not just football teams. In any area, success and dominance are fleeting. Think about online retail. Bezos started Amazon in his parent's garage mailing used books. Imagine if Walmart, or even a company like Sears, had gotten serious about e-commerce back then. They had exponentialy more resources. But their business model was working so why would they?

Saban is a freak of nature. He never gets complacent or enjoys his success. Most coaches would get tired of the grind and lose the hunger to compete like their life depends on it for recruits, assistants, donations, wins. There's also unreasonable fan expectations that create destructive feedbacks. Eg Tennessee. Fulmer had slipped into complacency after the '98 NC. But they created self-inflicted turmoil by firing and hiring bad coaches and creating a culture of impatience.

Dabo is a different animal. The culture in Clemson is tight. Assistants don't leave. The fans I've interacted with appreciate how special what they have is.

Imho, Bama is gonna collapse for a long time once Saban leaves or declines the weight of expectations is too high. But, not yet.

UGA is my pick for the next big fall. I think Kirby's momentum peaked and he had his National Championship in his hands in 2017. Let it slip away. The honeymoon and excitement about Georgia 'on the rise' is over. Other schools are rising. UGA fans are more entitled than ever. I don't see JT Daniels as a savior for them and I think Kirby's seat starts getting real hot soon.
 

jayparr

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This is only an example not about them about any college team. ( like FSU power house to below average )

What makes a power house football team fall and start becoming ordinary or below average team ?

recruiting ? ( but this was not the case for FSU) , Coaching ( change in new coach old players not liking the new staff, coaches not keeping up with the times )

School not willing to spend money like they did ( older alumni losing interest and not giving money)

Good assistant coaches getting hired away ( has not been the case for so one like Alabama )

Being at the top every team putting you as their game and making it impossible to play at 100% every game ,

Or just the way it is no one can stay at the top.

And which power house will be the next to fall ? ( My bet is it will be Clemson no real idea just my guess) Why did I pick them, if you have so many super players it gets to the point the new so called super players not not willing to wait their turn to start and move on to another team ( like uga QB did moving to Ohio State.
call bobinski and ask him!
 

Coloradojacket

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This is only an example not about them about any college team. ( like FSU power house to below average )

What makes a power house football team fall and start becoming ordinary or below average team ?

recruiting ? ( but this was not the case for FSU) , Coaching ( change in new coach old players not liking the new staff, coaches not keeping up with the times )

School not willing to spend money like they did ( older alumni losing interest and not giving money)

Good assistant coaches getting hired away ( has not been the case for so one like Alabama )

Being at the top every team putting you as their game and making it impossible to play at 100% every game ,

Or just the way it is no one can stay at the top.

And which power house will be the next to fall ? ( My bet is it will be Clemson no real idea just my guess) Why did I pick them, if you have so many super players it gets to the point the new so called super players not not willing to wait their turn to start and move on to another team ( like uga QB did moving to Ohio State.
So if you study history you have the reason. Alabama after the Bear. 5 coaches not living up to expectations until Saban.
Georgia Tech. After Dodd. No need to fill in the blanks
FSU after Bowden did well with Jimbo because Jimbo just basically did what Bowden had done. Now they have really bad coaching
Va Tech, USC Penn St.

When you have a great coach you never want to be the replacement unless you just keep with the same model. Many coaches come in and want their stamp on the program and sometimes they aren't ready. Particularly young coaches.

Florida St. is no different as far as money, recruiting etc. The last two coaches tried to be players coaches and that is not going to work in college football. You have to be boss.
 

stech81

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No I mean exactly that, they both were trying to not be authoritarian. And in coaching you have to be the boss...... You can bet Jimbo was boss.
I think I know what you mean ( without using CPJ or CGC to explain ) what is considered a players coach ? I'm not sure that Dabo is not a players coach and he lets the assistant coaches crack the whip , ( I don't know cause the only team I follow is Tech )
 

RichardFrazier

Georgia Tech Fan
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33
I think you can look at Georgia Tech to see an example of "makes a power house football team fall and start becoming ordinary or below average team ?"

From 1902-1963 (61 years) GT Football has an all-time record of 380-191-32 (.630 winning %) and has 5 SEC Championships, 3 Southern Conference Championships, and 5 SIAA Championships and national championships in 1917, 1928, 1952. Georgia Tech's COFH record was 27-26-5 (.630 winning %).

To put this all in perspective, from 1964 to 1982, GT Football compiled an unimpressive record of 104-100-5 (.497 winning %) with 0 titles in the independence span before joining the ACC in 1983. In the ACC starting from 1983 to 2020, GT Football compiled a record of 251-205-4 (.545 winning %) with 3 ACC Championships, and a national championships in 1990.

From 1964 to 2020 (56 years) GT Football has an all-time record of 355-305-4 (.534 winning %) and has 3 ACC Championships, and a national championships in 1990. Georgia Tech's COFH record is 14-41(.254 winning %).


I think we can learn a couple of things from this.
1. Conference Membership is greater than 1 College or University
2. While Coach Dodd and President Edwin Harrison envisioned Tech eventually being the Notre Dame of the South and playing a national football schedule, Georgia Tech never reached the glory days of their time in the SEC and Georgia Tech joined the ACC in 1983 as they needed conference membership to survive.
3. Coach Bobby Dodd and President Edwin Harrison took a power house football program and jump started it in becoming an ordinary or below average program
 

stech81

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Woodstock Georgia
I think you can look at Georgia Tech to see an example of "makes a power house football team fall and start becoming ordinary or below average team ?"

From 1902-1963 (61 years) GT Football has an all-time record of 380-191-32 (.630 winning %) and has 5 SEC Championships, 3 Southern Conference Championships, and 5 SIAA Championships and national championships in 1917, 1928, 1952. Georgia Tech's COFH record was 27-26-5 (.630 winning %).

To put this all in perspective, from 1964 to 1982, GT Football compiled an unimpressive record of 104-100-5 (.497 winning %) with 0 titles in the independence span before joining the ACC in 1983. In the ACC starting from 1983 to 2020, GT Football compiled a record of 251-205-4 (.545 winning %) with 3 ACC Championships, and a national championships in 1990.

From 1964 to 2020 (56 years) GT Football has an all-time record of 355-305-4 (.534 winning %) and has 3 ACC Championships, and a national championships in 1990. Georgia Tech's COFH record is 14-41(.254 winning %).


I think we can learn a couple of things from this.
1. Conference Membership is greater than 1 College or University
2. While Coach Dodd and President Edwin Harrison envisioned Tech eventually being the Notre Dame of the South and playing a national football schedule, Georgia Tech never reached the glory days of their time in the SEC and Georgia Tech joined the ACC in 1983 as they needed conference membership to survive.
3. Coach Bobby Dodd and President Edwin Harrison took a power house football program and jump started it in becoming an ordinary or below average program
Good points although number 3 may get some people upset Dodd was a great coach but maybe as an AD well ......... you could say other past AD;s after him and past presidents did hurt us
 

Skeptic

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I think I know what you mean ( without using CPJ or CGC to explain ) what is considered a players coach ? I'm not sure that Dabo is not a players coach and he lets the assistant coaches crack the whip , ( I don't know cause the only team I follow is Tech )
I follow Clemson a bit and admit Swinney fascinates me. Someone who knows him well and has for years swears he could run Fortune 500 company, and might yet. It is hard to define a "players' coach" but he is driven and drives his players and coaches. "All in" means something at Clemson and those who aren't won't be around long. That few players leave says a lot. (And if you have seen one of his apocalyptic sideline eruptions, a player trying to walk away and Swinney following him down the sideline, wow.) Except there is this: when Swinney is done, it is over, and put behind him. That is an almost unique attribute among football coaches. Nor does he delegate cracking the whip. There was a memorable explosion when a fist fight broke out during a pre-season scrimmage and Swinney immediately put the entire roster through a brutal series of exhausting drills and at the end, saying he blamed the coaches too ... made the coaches run. That he can do that and keep their loyalty puzzles me, but he clearly is a much more complex guy than the good-old-boy who goes about mangling the English.
 

TromboneJacket

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I follow Clemson a bit and admit Swinney fascinates me. Someone who knows him well and has for years swears he could run Fortune 500 company, and might yet. It is hard to define a "players' coach" but he is driven and drives his players and coaches. "All in" means something at Clemson and those who aren't won't be around long. That few players leave says a lot. (And if you have seen one of his apocalyptic sideline eruptions, a player trying to walk away and Swinney following him down the sideline, wow.) Except there is this: when Swinney is done, it is over, and put behind him. That is an almost unique attribute among football coaches. Nor does he delegate cracking the whip. There was a memorable explosion when a fist fight broke out during a pre-season scrimmage and Swinney immediately put the entire roster through a brutal series of exhausting drills and at the end, saying he blamed the coaches too ... made the coaches run. That he can do that and keep their loyalty puzzles me, but he clearly is a much more complex guy than the good-old-boy who goes about mangling the English.
Two thoughts immediately pop up for me about this. The first is that Dabo has shown that he wants the best for his players and staff over a long period of time, so when he asks them to do things that are difficult and, for lack of a better word, painful, they’re willing to comply because they trust that he wouldn’t ask them to do things that won’t help them in the future.

My other thought is about team cultures that crack the whip more in general. Bill Belichick has had a lot of success with that in the past, and some players are just suited to that kind of environment in general, but he’s been under increasing scrutiny because lack of success tends to cause such a culture to crumble quicker than a “fun” culture. It’s easy to go all-in and make sacrifices when you’re sure it will pay off, but what if you’re not sure? Who wants to put everything they have into something, get screamed at constantly, get no recognition for their accomplishments, and then still lose games? Granted, the NFL has the salary cap factor, and college football doesn’t. And maybe Belichick has the right of it, and guys like Pete Carroll are wrong, but it’s food for thought.
 

bobongo

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Good points although number 3 may get some people upset Dodd was a great coach but maybe as an AD well ......... you could say other past AD;s after him and past presidents did hurt us
And it has to do with more than just the AD...like The Hill, for example.
 

YJMD

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Football teams need leadership to be successful. There are a handful of players which can make disproportionate impact on their own, but nearly all the time how the pieces coordinate determines success. Leadership can come from many places and in many different forms, not all of them psychologically ideal. But lacking leadership is lacking structure, motivation, and coordination. Sadly, some of the toxic hypocritical figures can be the most enticing, and becoming an idol can be a successful form of leadership, but false idols often leave a wake of skeletons behind them. Those skeletons can create systemic norms which are very difficult to modify even with a completely new staff and with significant turnover of personnel.

There's a funny and fictitious illustration of this principle:
 

takethepoints

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This is only an example not about them about any college team. ( like FSU power house to below average )

What makes a power house football team fall and start becoming ordinary or below average team ?

recruiting ? ( but this was not the case for FSU) , Coaching ( change in new coach old players not liking the new staff, coaches not keeping up with the times )

School not willing to spend money like they did ( older alumni losing interest and not giving money)

Good assistant coaches getting hired away ( has not been the case for so one like Alabama )

Being at the top every team putting you as their game and making it impossible to play at 100% every game ,

Or just the way it is no one can stay at the top.

And which power house will be the next to fall ? ( My bet is it will be Clemson no real idea just my guess) Why did I pick them, if you have so many super players it gets to the point the new so called super players not not willing to wait their turn to start and move on to another team ( like uga QB did moving to Ohio State.
I'd put money first. Tech's a good example here. When Paul first became coach Tech was spending about the same as other ACC programs, except FSU. By the time he left, Tech was being outspent by Duke. This especially impacted recruiting, particularly identifying potential future recruits. The new regime at the ADs office is determined that we at least catch up with the league, excepting Clemson. Thank God for that.

Coaching second. Head coaching, that is. Tech has had a string of good head coaches who knew how to navigate the environment and deliver. With a few exceptions, our coaches have been able to deliver 7 wins a year like clockwork. (Btw, I expect that Collins will do this as well.) But … it has been rare for other schools like Tech (Purdue and Rice) to pull that off. I don't know if that's a matter of the program consistently punching above its weight in recruiting head coaches, but that seems to be it.
 

Sheboygan

Jolly Good Fellow
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Complacency and momentum. It's not just football teams. In any area, success and dominance are fleeting. Think about online retail. Bezos started Amazon in his parent's garage mailing used books. Imagine if Walmart, or even a company like Sears, had gotten serious about e-commerce back then. They had exponentialy more resources. But their business model was working so why would they?

Saban is a freak of nature. He never gets complacent or enjoys his success. Most coaches would get tired of the grind and lose the hunger to compete like their life depends on it for recruits, assistants, donations, wins. There's also unreasonable fan expectations that create destructive feedbacks. Eg Tennessee. Fulmer had slipped into complacency after the '98 NC. But they created self-inflicted turmoil by firing and hiring bad coaches and creating a culture of impatience.

Dabo is a different animal. The culture in Clemson is tight. Assistants don't leave. The fans I've interacted with appreciate how special what they have is.

Imho, Bama is gonna collapse for a long time once Saban leaves or declines the weight of expectations is too high. But, not yet.

UGA is my pick for the next big fall. I think Kirby's momentum peaked and he had his National Championship in his hands in 2017. Let it slip away. The honeymoon and excitement about Georgia 'on the rise' is over. Other schools are rising. UGA fans are more entitled than ever. I don't see JT Daniels as a savior for them and I think Kirby's seat starts getting real hot soon.
I ALWAYS love a post that predicts the demise of the DWAGS. But seriously, I agree for the simple reason that they still don't get it. Their annual delusion is hilarious at this point. They have an extremely good football program, light years better than ours right now. The competition among the elite teams is fierce- Ala, Clem, OSU mostly, with little margin for shortcomings of talent, coaching or scheme. The DWAGS have 2 out of 3, but the coaching still comes up short, IMO. I don't understand how a fanbase that hasn't won a NC in over 40 years can feel entitled, but that's the "wonder":wtf: of having a mind of a DWAG.
What I think causes a downfall is the Head coach who can't retain good assistants, because they sense he isn't in it for the long term. If you can't keep the staff and lose the passion for the school you are at, you are in trouble.
 
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Heisman's Ghost

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This is only an example not about them about any college team. ( like FSU power house to below average )

What makes a power house football team fall and start becoming ordinary or below average team ?

recruiting ? ( but this was not the case for FSU) , Coaching ( change in new coach old players not liking the new staff, coaches not keeping up with the times )

School not willing to spend money like they did ( older alumni losing interest and not giving money)

Good assistant coaches getting hired away ( has not been the case for so one like Alabama )

Being at the top every team putting you as their game and making it impossible to play at 100% every game ,

Or just the way it is no one can stay at the top.

And which power house will be the next to fall ? ( My bet is it will be Clemson no real idea just my guess) Why did I pick them, if you have so many super players it gets to the point the new so called super players not not willing to wait their turn to start and move on to another team ( like uga QB did moving to Ohio State.
In the past dozen years or so, the biggest powerhouses to fall from grace, so to speak, have done so for a variety of reasons but most of the time it is self inflicted. Just off the top of my head the steepest falls have been Nebraska, Tennessee, Auburn, and perhaps, Michigan. There are likely others but I assume you mean legit nationally ranked elite factories. Nebraska and Tennessee were bedeviled by some pretty bad coaching hires and neither has the recruiting chops to survive multiple years of chaos the way, say UGA or Alabama can. Auburn is still a formidable football factory but suffers in comparison to the monster created by Saban. Michigan is similar with its nemesis being Ohio State. Some places just seem to, for whatever reason, consistently underachieve relative to their usually glittering recruiting classes. Miami, UNC, and Texas come to mind although the Longhorns did win a fairly recent national championship. It is hard to imagine now but once upon a time schools like Arkansas, Missouri, BYU, and Pitt were seen as being on the cusp of greatness but it was a mirage. For the past 40 years, UCLA has beckoned coaches of promise and has wrecked many a reputation and career. There really are not that many teams in this situation. Far more common, is the plight of the also ran and never do wells of college football. Vanderbilt, Tulane, Boston College, Wake Forest, Duke, Kansas, Illinois, Purdue, Washington State, Oregon State, California, have no chance. None, zero, zilch, nada of ever being much more than punching bags for the factories. We are somewhere in between but another bad year will put us drifting near to a lee shore, too close for comfort. IMHO
 

Heisman's Ghost

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I ALWAYS love a post that predicts the demise of the DWAGS. But seriously, I agree for the simple reason that they still don't get it. Their annual delusion is hilarious at this point. They have an extremely good football program, light years better than ours right now. The competition among the elite teams is fierce- Ala, Clem, OSU mostly, with little margin for shortcomings of talent, coaching or scheme. The DWAGS have 2 out of 3, but the coaching still comes up short, IMO. I don't understand how a fanbase that hasn't won a NC in over 40 years can feel entitled, but that's the "wonder":wtf: of having a mind of a DWAG.
What I think causes a downfall is the Head coach who can't retain good assistants, because they sense he isn't in it for the long term. If you can't keep the staff and lose the passion for the school you are at, you are in trouble.
I agree with this but for some reason, UGA's 40 year drought cannot be explained as just coaching. I don't know what it is but when you are ahead with mere seconds to play against Alabama and have them 4th and a mile to go and manage to not just give up a first down but a touchdown, well, there has to be some serious karma at work. Georgia, like Miami, Notre Dame, Texas, and a few others manage to do less with more talent. Would we have such problems. Someone feel free to correct me but it SEEMS to me that the overall number of true elite factory schools seem to be getting smaller than in years past. I count the number of teams with legit chances of going all the way at about ten or so: UGA, Alabama, Clemson, Ohio State, Oklahoma, Penn State, LSU, Notre Dame, and perhaps Texas or Florida. Anyone else?
 
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