A real Debate ( sorry don't make this about CPJ vs CGC )

[SOWEGA Jacket]

Clough hated sports. Small group of us met him in LA for dinner, drinks, etc back in the Chan days. Think it was early ’06 and we had gone 5 years straight of 7-5. He spent about 30 mins talking academics, GTRI, etc then opened for questions. Started off with a football question, then another, followed by more football questions. There were some basketball questions & somebody asked about the baseball team. After about 90 mins he bolted, none too happy none of the alums wanted to talk about anything besides sports. I’m not sure there was a single non-sports question asked.

The man did a lot for GT, but I believe he did not respect or value our student athletes. In my opinion he thought most of them did not belong on campus. I’ve only spoken to him 8 or 10 times though, always surrounded by fans and former athletes. Never had him 1 on 1, so maybe someone has a different opinion. Kinda fits with his Berkeley, Dook, Stanford before they had decent sports upbringing.

Well if you want to be honest most of the athletes wouldn’t sniff admission if they had to apply with every other student. And in fairness, 50,000 folks don’t come to campus to watch a GTRI presentation. The bottom line is everyone older than 19 knows the deal - colleges put up with athletes because they bring people to campus to spend money. It’s the Roman Coliseum but since we can’t capture people and pit them against each other anymore now we have to convince them to join the school and sacrifice their body for our enjoyment. Some get degrees and improve their overall life and others don’t. Hopefully with the NCAA dying before our eyes a new system will emerge. Besides, within 30 years football won’t exist and we’ll be a soccer/lacrosse country.

 

[LibertyTurns]

Well if you want to be honest most of the athletes wouldn’t sniff admission if they had to apply with every other student.

Well, there’s many different ways to become “smart”. Not all of them involve being in a top tier HS with tutors to assist with max’ing out SAT scores, getting someone to write your essay or having rich parents so you can go overseas to participate in international competitions or obtain lucrative internships. Some have to work a job after school, play sports, perform music. You know, the way GT used to be. You got in because you were smart enough & had the work ethic/perseverance to succeed. You weren’t weeded out before you got to the starting line.

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

Well, there’s many different ways to become “smart”. Not all of them involve being in a top tier HS with tutors to assist with max’ing out SAT scores, getting someone to write your essay or having rich parents so you can go overseas to participate in international competitions or obtain lucrative internships. Some have to work a job after school, play sports, perform music. You know, the way GT used to be. You got in because you were smart enough & had the work ethic/perseverance to succeed. You weren’t weeded out before you got to the starting line.

Nothing like taking the extremes. I know lots of kids who went to or are GT now and not one of them had SAT tutors or what we would say are rich parents, etc. I’m in South Georgia where no one would claim a top tier high school is within 200 miles of here. They are just normal kids who didn‘t take the lazy route in high school academically. They set out on a goal as 9th graders to get in. The same way scholarship athletes work on their craft all thru high school. And in no way would these kids be admitted into a minor league system for athletics just like most athletes wouldn’t get into GT without their ability to entertain the masses. I’m not knocking athletes, but we all know what this system is all about - money. And the schools bring in the entertainers to make that money. And the percentage of players that make a living off a sport is minuscule as we all know. I don’t mind this system at all because it’s entertainment. But when the entertainment ends you better believe the schools won’t be admitting these players. How many boxers does GT bring in each year? None, because there is no money to be made off them.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Let’s see, what was the question again?

 

[Heisman's Ghost]

One could argue that Tulane was a power until their administration starting limiting football scholarships in the 1950s. Duke was also a power at one time under Wallace Wade. Both went through soul searching over how to balance football with academics.

None of this negates your point however. I especially appreciate your comments about Tennessee, Auburn, Missouri, Michigan and Nebraska. Nebraska and Michigan are especially puzzling given that historically they have had the most loyal fan bases of any school, routinely packing their stadiums.

Yep. Tulane was actually an SEC powerhouse at one time but by the 1960s, Dodd could pretty much put that game in the win column. Duke was a team to be feared under Wallace Wade who coached Bear Bryant among others at Alabama before going to Duke. One time there was a reunion of old Alabama players who had played under Wade when they went to the Rose Bowl. Among the members of the team was Bear Bryant. All the men were smoking and drinking before Coach Wade got there. When he showed up all of them including the Bear hastily put away the cigarettes and the booze knowing that Coach Wade frowned upon that sort of thing. He had that kind of commanding authority and respect.

 

[Heisman's Ghost]

Oh? I think this list shows how important head coaching is. Vandy was good under Franklin, BC under O'Brien, Purdue under Tiller, Duke under Cutliffe (let's give the devil his due here), WSU under Leach, California under Tedford, OSU under Erikson (he's a crook, but he knows good football players when he see them), and - most relevant example - Wake under Grobe and Clawson, have all given "better" programs fits. Then you can look at programs that fire really good head coaches - Tennessee and Texas A&M stand out - and suddenly find themselves up the creek without an oar.

Money is still number one and it can lose you a good head coach - see FSU - but good head coaching is probably the most important element after that. IMHO, of course.

And...when those coaches left or leave in the case of Clawson, then they go back to being punching bags. None of them have a chance in hell of being competitive with any of the factories. Vanderbilt stays in the SEC for the payday, that is it.

 

[Heisman's Ghost]

One could argue that Tulane was a power until their administration starting limiting football scholarships in the 1950s. Duke was also a power at one time under Wallace Wade. Both went through soul searching over how to balance football with academics.

None of this negates your point however. I especially appreciate your comments about Tennessee, Auburn, Missouri, Michigan and Nebraska. Nebraska and Michigan are especially puzzling given that historically they have had the most loyal fan bases of any school, routinely packing their stadiums.

As for Tennessee and Nebraska, bad coaching hires and perhaps, not having a huge recruiting base has hurt them. My Florida friends were sure that Frost was going to pick the Gators until his old school called. Turns out the Gators may have dodged a bullet there but even Florida has seen (for them) lean times with the damage done by Champ and Mac. Some of them still don't care for Mullen who can be abrasive at times but beating Georgia does salve some feelings.

 

[Oldgoldandwhite]

I'm no Bobinski fan, but he inherited a mess. Homer retired with money in the bank. Braine spent it and did little in the way of fund raising. Radakovich spent money we didn't have trying to keep up. Bobinski tried to get things under control, which put us behind other programs. We needed fund raising, which is what Stansbury is trying to do. The financial problems really go back to Clough's buddy Braine, who was a disaster of an AD.

Good example of it starts at the top.

 

[GTRambler]

To answer stech81’s original question:

What makes a power house football team fall and start becoming ordinary or below average team ?

My answer: Poor quality coaching.

 

[YJMD]

Saban is the best of the best when it comes to creating a winning culture. No doubt. But in my opinion he was also lucky. He was never going to hit the upper echelons at Michigan State and caught a big break to get out of there when he could. Likewise he was not a great NFL coach where talent is a little more evenly distributed among teams. But going to a school like Alabama, where you already have a lot of advantages, was the perfect move for a coach of his ability. Compare Bill Curry’s record at Tech vs his record at ‘Bama to see how place can make a difference.

I think it depends on what you define as culture. Saban is very structured. He also plays with a stacked deck. Massive talent but also massive resources for analysts, etc. Because of how he has things organized and all the staffers to support the coaches, they can churn through assistants readily. Are those things culture?

The culture among players, I don't know, but he does have them oriented to win for sure.

 

[billga99]

To answer stech81’s original question:

What makes a power house football team fall and start becoming ordinary or below average team ?

My answer: Poor quality coaching.

Coaching clearly is a piece. But there are other things that enter into it. Clearly money, fan support (ie filling up stadiums, support of the players, etc.), league you play in, ability to get players in the NFL, etc .

 

[augustabuzz]

Coaching clearly is a piece. But there are other things that enter into it. Clearly money, fan support (ie filling up stadiums, support of the players, etc.), league you play in, ability to get players in the NFL, etc .

You were doing well right up to this, "ability to get players in the NFL,". The players themselves are the ones with the ability.

 

[slugboy]

You were doing well right up to this, "ability to get players in the NFL,". The players themselves are the ones with the ability.

Tenuta and his assistants had a great track record, and Baltimore (Billick) loved those players because “they were already prepared”.
It’s not one thing, it’s multiple factors

 

[augustabuzz]

Tenuta and his assistants had a great track record, and Baltimore (Billick) loved those players because “they were already prepared”.
It’s not one thing, it’s multiple factors

And every one of those guys had the ability to make the NFL. If you're claiming that they couldn't make it without Tenuta's coaching, then excuse me while I get my BS repellent.

 

[forensicbuzz]

Kinda fits with his Berkeley, Dook, Stanford before they had decent sports upbringing.

Ummm, Clough was a GT graduate. He got his BS and MS here at Tech. His Ph.D. was from Berkeley, but where you get your undergraduate generally shapes your allegiances. I'd say GT and Bobby Dodd were his sports upbring in the early 60's.

 

[forensicbuzz]

Saban is the best of the best when it comes to creating a winning culture. No doubt. But in my opinion he was also lucky. He was never going to hit the upper echelons at Michigan State and caught a big break to get out of there when he could. Likewise he was not a great NFL coach where talent is a little more evenly distributed among teams. But going to a school like Alabama, where you already have a lot of advantages, was the perfect move for a coach of his ability. Compare Bill Curry’s record at Tech vs his record at ‘Bama to see how place can make a difference.

I don't disagree with you. But he has the clout to walk into any school and collect the student-athletes to be highly successful, regardless of who that school is. If he went back to Michigan State now he would have a playoff team within 2-3 years. National championships also require luck, so I'll stop at playoff teams. That gives you the opportunity to win the NC.

 

[slugboy]

And every one of those guys had the ability to make the NFL. If you're claiming that they couldn't make it without Tenuta's coaching, then excuse me while I get my BS repellent.

There are 5* recruits that don’t make it every year. Good coaching can make your odds better and your draft position better

 

[augustabuzz]

There are 5* recruits that don’t make it every year. Good coaching can make your odds better and your draft position better

True, but first you must recruit kids that are capable of making the NFL, physically, mentally and emotionally. Alabama, Clemson, Ohio State and UGa don't "put guys in the NFL"! They recruit them.

 

[forensicbuzz]

True, but first you must recruit kids that are capable of making the NFL, physically, mentally and emotionally. Alabama, Clemson, Ohio State and UGa don't "put guys in the NFL"! They recruit them.

So do we. We always have. We just haven't been as successful in getting these recruits to commit in the past.

 

[LibertyTurns]

Ummm, Clough was a GT graduate. He got his BS and MS here at Tech. His Ph.D. was from Berkeley, but where you get your undergraduate generally shapes your allegiances. I'd say GT and Bobby Dodd were his sports upbring in the early 60's.

He attended GT during Dodd’s hey day. You thinking he developed his disdain for GT sports then?