1/24/2018 - GT @ FSU

[RamblinRed]

No I don't think it is a way of mitigating last year's recruiting 'disappointment'.
He was very open from his first press conference about how he planned to build the program. It was never about getting high 4 and 5 star guys (not that we won't take the occassional swing at one). it was about getting high 3 and 4 star kids that are going to stay in the program. If he didn't start mentioning this until Nov 2016 then I could buy that, but he started talking about the process he expected to follow from day 1 and talked about it alot. i don't think he believes GT can compete consistently on the recruiting trail with Duke, UNC and probably L'ville so don't waste your time trying. Get players that you can get that can develop in time into players that cna play with the one and done types those schools can get consistently.

I also don't consider the 2017 recruiting class a disappointment, i'm actually fine with it. As I mentioned before we didn't even have any asst coaches until after the spring AAU season ended. So while everyone else had 4 coaches out watching and talking to people we had one. That was a decision Mbob and Pastner made to take time to get the right coaching staff together. Not having coaches that spring put GT way behind when players start making decisions about 2-3 months later.

As an FYI, it has been mentioned elsewhere that Haywood is not 100%. Reportedly still limping around campus.

 

[YJMD]

A few comments:

1. I thought we did best defensively with both AD and Ben in the game. I'm not sure how much it's his health, what's between the ears, teams adjusting to Ben, the type of defenses we are playing, less ability of wings to deny drives to basket, or what, but opponents this year are really moving him off the block to keep from protecting the rim or getting post entry on him going 1-on-1 where he is less effective as a shot blocker. Also keeps him out of rebounding position. At least with Gueye in there we had more. Especially in the 2nd half, when we went to man, FSU used a lot of screens on the bigs to open things up. Their size/versatility/athleticism really kept us trying to avoid switching.

2. I know it's FSU's style, but, man, we could not keep them from getting in the lane off the drive. The tight foul-calling I'm sure contributed to our hesitancy to deny drives. We drew one charge that I remember. I think we need to hire coach K to do a 1-day clinic for us to learn how to flop.

3. I thought we did well offensively, except we were hampered (again) by their extended pressure on our guards. That pulled Ben and AD out to the perimeter to bail us out but keeps them from being involved in the offense. One thing I don't like about our cutting offense is it can help collapse the defense without a player driving the ball, so there's more traffic to deal with when you try. With that kind of extended pressure, good court spacing can open up a driving lane. Virginia was too good to let that happen regularly. UNC was not as disciplined defensively but also really tried to create turnovers rather than get stops. FSU more in the middle.

4. Things can get a lot more fun for us when we build a deeper, more versatile, athletic roster as CJP is trying to do. Fatigue really killed us in both halves (not just foul trouble). At a slow pace, we can cope with this better, but FSU wasn't going to allow that, and also we demonstrated that a lot of our players can thrive with a bit more push.

5. So many of our turnovers are on bad passes, and a lot of times passes that were just inaccurate instead of ill-advised. Really frustrating. Dunno what to do about it except build more depth and experience.

6. There were stretches where FSU was just on fire and playing at home. Really impressed how we did not fold. At times I was a bit reeling, but I thought this was a very entertaining game. The first 10 minutes might have been the best level of play from both teams I've seen in CBB this year.

 

[AE 87]

I don't think that there's any doubt but that our starting 5 play really good D but struggle to score consistently. We can get better scoring with the first couple off the bench, but our D seems to drop off precipitously.

 

[YlJacket]

A few comments:

1. I thought we did best defensively with both AD and Ben in the game. I'm not sure how much it's his health, what's between the ears, teams adjusting to Ben, the type of defenses we are playing, less ability of wings to deny drives to basket, or what, but opponents this year are really moving him off the block to keep from protecting the rim or getting post entry on him going 1-on-1 where he is less effective as a shot blocker. Also keeps him out of rebounding position. At least with Gueye in there we had more. Especially in the 2nd half, when we went to man, FSU used a lot of screens on the bigs to open things up. Their size/versatility/athleticism really kept us trying to avoid switching.

Specific to this point, part of it is health with Haywood still not 100%. So he really can't stay in front of an athletic guard - and didn't. But beyond that this is the second year of teams seeing how we play man and more importantly how we play that 1-3-1 D. Last year we gave teams a lot of trouble - especially with the 1-3-1. They now have had time to scheme against it. Last year I thought Pitt had the best plan of making us pay for Lammers by himself on the baseline but seeing a lot of scheming this year. Same in man just not as obvious.

In addition, their guards were just physical mismatches for us on the wing. Especially in transition or semi-transition situations which they got a lot.

 

[GT_EE78]

No I don't think it is a way of mitigating last year's recruiting 'disappointment'.
He was very open from his first press conference about how he planned to build the program. It was never about getting high 4 and 5 star guys (not that we won't take the occassional swing at one). it was about getting high 3 and 4 star kids that are going to stay in the program. If he didn't start mentioning this until Nov 2016 then I could buy that, but he started talking about the process he expected to follow from day 1 and talked about it alot. i don't think he believes GT can compete consistently on the recruiting trail with Duke, UNC and probably L'ville so don't waste your time trying. Get players that you can get that can develop in time into players that cna play with the one and done types those schools can get consistently.

I also don't consider the 2017 recruiting class a disappointment, i'm actually fine with it. As I mentioned before we didn't even have any asst coaches until after the spring AAU season ended. So while everyone else had 4 coaches out watching and talking to people we had one. That was a decision Mbob and Pastner made to take time to get the right coaching staff together. Not having coaches that spring put GT way behind when players start making decisions about 2-3 months later.

As an FYI, it has been mentioned elsewhere that Haywood is not 100%. Reportedly still limping around campus.

Granted the 2016 class isn't a fair target for the reasons you mentioned. My disappointment for the 17 class isn't so much for who we got (Jose is great and others can be solid role players eventually) as much as for the missed opportunity. That size group of talented Atlanta kids doesn't come around every year, consider just the local kids 4/5 star guys we missed out on :

Wendell Carter,Alex O'Connell,Jordan Tucker,Jordan Goldwire,Collin Sexton, M.J.Walker,Chuma Okeke,Rayshaun Hammonds,Davion Mitchell,Ike Obiagu,Darius Perry,DeAundrae Ballard,Lance Thomas

The 18 class is improved because we got a 4 star guard, but CJP's 1 of 10 so far (higher than 3star) is only a little better than Gregory's recruiting (he had a 5star Robt Carter and a 4 - Jackson which didn't get him over the hump)

I'm not crying over spilled milk or expecting to compete with the elites recruiting but i think getting back to a Cremins level of respectability (and earning his big paycheck) is contingent on continued recruiting improvement as opposed to the level of accomplishment to date.

 

[ChasonBaller]

I feel like I've missed a lot due to not being on the swarm for 3 days bc I was moving into my new crib in midtown.

We missed on Nas Little??

And I only saw the 2nd half of FSU but Jose had some awesome and-1s and 3s....but some bad TOs. Time to beat Clemson!

 

[alagold]

The good news about fsu game--we actually scored 77 --AWAY from home vs a decent team.. The bad news they scored a bunch more.
We just need better players for depth if nothing else.plus-We will be a very middling team until we get real 3 pt capability.That is where the game has gone.We don't pass/drive well enough to get hi % of 2 pt baskets.

 

[glandon1960]

No I don't think it is a way of mitigating last year's recruiting 'disappointment'.
He was very open from his first press conference about how he planned to build the program. It was never about getting high 4 and 5 star guys (not that we won't take the occassional swing at one). it was about getting high 3 and 4 star kids that are going to stay in the program. If he didn't start mentioning this until Nov 2016 then I could buy that, but he started talking about the process he expected to follow from day 1 and talked about it alot. i don't think he believes GT can compete consistently on the recruiting trail with Duke, UNC and probably L'ville so don't waste your time trying. Get players that you can get that can develop in time into players that cna play with the one and done types those schools can get consistently.

I also don't consider the 2017 recruiting class a disappointment, i'm actually fine with it. As I mentioned before we didn't even have any asst coaches until after the spring AAU season ended. So while everyone else had 4 coaches out watching and talking to people we had one. That was a decision Mbob and Pastner made to take time to get the right coaching staff together. Not having coaches that spring put GT way behind when players start making decisions about 2-3 months later.

As an FYI, it has been mentioned elsewhere that Haywood is not 100%. Reportedly still limping around campus.

I agree with Red's comments (as I find myself doing a lot). CJP made it clear early what his strategy was and that it would take 3-4 recruiting classes to get there. Jose looks like he will be solid 4 year starter - one of those players others will think 'he has not graduated yet'. PG play is key - especially in top conferences. Haywood shows a lot of potential to be solid ACC player (but not quite there yet) ... and Cole/Wright have shown flashes but need 1-2 more years (expected a little more from them this year, but did not expect either to be solid ACC level starters). AD's development has been amazing since early in the year ... would not bother me if he ends up starting at the 5 next year.

Last year was the overachieving year of all years ... which set the bar a little higher in a lot of our eyes for this year.
I think this team is about where it should be from competitive perspective - right now ...If healthy and with all players we would have beaten Grambling, Wofford, and Wright State .. possibly UCLA given their suspensions ... in the ACC we've done pretty much what I expected to date given where we are in the rebuild.

Unlike Gregory who used grad transfers as core strategy once he realized he could not land the top tier recruits, Pastner has used them to fill out the roster. I don't want to rely on grad transfers, not sustainable (neither are 1 and done's unless you are Kentucky, Duke, etc.) - but if he could find solid big for next year would not hurt the long term strategy (AD won't play 35 minutes most nights without fouling out).

I was at the game in Tallahassee (one of my daughters went to FSU and still lives there). People I spoke with were impressed with how hard GT played all night, and said FSU was playing one of their better offensive games. We lost it on turnovers - nothing else. Jackson also had one of the worst games of his career (could not finish, bad turnover after bad turnover) - CJP knew it but had no other options than to hope he broke out of it.

As someone posted stat sheet - and I commented at the game , the stats showed the effort- GT got off more field goal attempts (but FSU made several more), more FT's (despite some fouls at the end), had more rebounds (Okogie was a beast on boards), and had same number of threes on the night. Where we got killed was bad turnovers (Jackson and Jose in particular) which led to too many easy baskets and at times the D stopped helping on penetration (FSU got to basket too easy). FSU is more athletic than GT, and that showed.

I thought other than turnovers we played well enough to win, and left impressed with the overall effort despite the loss.

 

[Connell62]

Granted the 2016 class isn't a fair target for the reasons you mentioned. My disappointment for the 17 class isn't so much for who we got (Jose is great and others can be solid role players eventually) as much as for the missed opportunity. That size group of talented Atlanta kids doesn't come around every year, consider just the local kids 4/5 star guys we missed out on :

Wendell Carter,Alex O'Connell,Jordan Tucker,Jordan Goldwire,Collin Sexton, M.J.Walker,Chuma Okeke,Rayshaun Hammonds,Davion Mitchell,Ike Obiagu,Darius Perry,DeAundrae Ballard,Lance Thomas

The 18 class is improved because we got a 4 star guard, but CJP's 1 of 10 so far (higher than 3star) is only a little better than Gregory's recruiting (he had a 5star Robt Carter and a 4 - Jackson which didn't get him over the hump)

I'm not crying over spilled milk or expecting to compete with the elites recruiting but i think getting back to a Cremins level of respectability (and earning his big paycheck) is contingent on continued recruiting improvement as opposed to the level of accomplishment to date.

So your expectation was that Pastner would come into the job and sell all these 4/5 local recruits to come to GT in a span of a few months?

He got us into the mix in a short period of time, but there was just too much ground to make up. Especially considering the likes of who he was competing against.

Had Gregory been fired a year earlier, as he should have, then we would have had a much better shot with some of those kids.

 

[senoiajacket]

Granted the 2016 class isn't a fair target for the reasons you mentioned. My disappointment for the 17 class isn't so much for who we got (Jose is great and others can be solid role players eventually) as much as for the missed opportunity. That size group of talented Atlanta kids doesn't come around every year, consider just the local kids 4/5 star guys we missed out on :

Wendell Carter,Alex O'Connell,Jordan Tucker,Jordan Goldwire,Collin Sexton, M.J.Walker,Chuma Okeke,Rayshaun Hammonds,Davion Mitchell,Ike Obiagu,Darius Perry,DeAundrae Ballard,Lance Thomas

The 18 class is improved because we got a 4 star guard, but CJP's 1 of 10 so far (higher than 3star) is only a little better than Gregory's recruiting (he had a 5star Robt Carter and a 4 - Jackson which didn't get him over the hump)

I'm not crying over spilled milk or expecting to compete with the elites recruiting but i think getting back to a Cremins level of respectability (and earning his big paycheck) is contingent on continued recruiting improvement as opposed to the level of accomplishment to date.

I agree with the opinion of many i have read here. You don't just start from where we were and have (much/any) success going after the same 4&5 star talent pool as the "factories" (is that term applicable to basketball or can I only use in a football thread). You've got to build a (winning) foundation first. I personally like the way that CJP is trying to do that. I think he has a good solid plan that **may** in the future payoff in being able to get the higher ranked guys. When Cremins first arrived he built the program on the shoulders of Price & salley. I can't say for sure, but I don't recall them being recruited as "elites". After their success he was able to go get the elites.

 

[senoiajacket]

The good news about fsu game--we actually scored 77 --AWAY from home vs a decent team.. The bad news they scored a bunch more.
We just need better players for depth if nothing else.plus-We will be a very middling team until we get real 3 pt capability.That is where the game has gone.We don't pass/drive well enough to get hi % of 2 pt baskets.

If this is correct, that is good news. There are a lot of good 3 pt shooters out there that we can go get. Also, I firmly believe that you can "make yourself" into a good 3 pt guy with coaching and enough repetition

 

[RamblinRed]

So your expectation was that Pastner would come into the job and sell all these 4/5 local recruits to come to GT in a span of a few months?

He got us into the mix in a short period of time, but there was just too much ground to make up. Especially considering the likes of who he was competing against.

Had Gregory been fired a year earlier, as he should have, then we would have had a much better shot with some of those kids.

This may be the key point. if GT had fired Gregory after yr 4 GT would have had over a year to build the relationships with those kids instead of 3 months.

We have 2 really good 3-pt shooters coming in next year in Devoe and Sjolund and the 2 guards who are FR this year look to be good 3-pt shooters. Okogie has become a good 3-pt shooter and Phillips should be a solid one as well. So next season we should really see an uptick in our ability to hit the three.