Zach Pyron is a tough dude!

[stinger78]

Did you see anything new and improved from pyron beyond what we have seen from king all season?

Yes, many of Zach’s passes were sharper and more on target than what I’ve seen out of Haynes the past couple of weeks - against a much tougher D. His QBR was good, and that was with the two picks. Those were bad, but we were behind and couldn’t run.

I do think Haynes, were he unhurt, would have brought greater running ability to the table. But he was hurt, and that is the reality.

The point is: we don’t know what Haynes would have done with a hurt arm. That’s a total guess, a counter factual, therefore we don’t… it’s just an opinion. That was my point.

 

[gte447f]

Yes, many of Zach’s passes were sharper and more on target than what I’ve seen out of Haynes the past couple of weeks - against a much tougher D. His QBR was good, and that was with the two picks. Those were bad, but we were behind and couldn’t run.

I do think Haynes, were he unhurt, would have brought greater running ability to the table. But he was hurt, and that is the reality.

The point is: we don’t know what Haynes would have done with a hurt arm. That’s a total guess, a counter factual, therefore we don’t… it’s just an opinion. That was my point.

It’s not a counterfactual. I was referencing king’s performances before he got pulled due to injury.

I haven’t advocated for King to play hurt, or said that king could do better hurt than pyron can do healthy. I haven’t said any of that. Obviously pyron is the best option as long as king is unable to play. I have simply been arguing that a healthy pyron has not shown better than a healthy king.

In the ND game in particular, pyron did ok, but he didn’t show anything that wouldn’t be expected from a healthy king, in fact he performed well below the typical performances we saw from king before unc game that he was pulled from due to injury.

This all started when someone commented that we saw laser sharp passing from pyron better than anything we’ve seen all season from king. I disagree. I don’t think we saw that.

 

[stinger78]

It’s not a counterfactual. I was referencing king’s performances before he got pulled due to injury.

I haven’t advocated for King to play hurt, or said that king could do better hurt than pyron can do healthy. I haven’t said any of that. Obviously pyron is the best option as long as king is unable to play. I have simply been arguing that a healthy pyron has not shown better than a healthy king.

In the ND game in particular, pyron did ok, but he didn’t show anything that wouldn’t be expected from a healthy king, in fact he performed well below the typical performances we saw from king before unc game that he was pulled from due to injury.

This all started when someone commented that we saw laser sharp passing from pyron better than anything we’ve seen all season from king. I disagree. I don’t think we saw that.

King is anointed the #1 QB by the coaches, who see them both. I think we can conclude that if King is healthy, he is the better option.

That said, I do think Pyron generally has the stronger of the two arms and throws a better pass. Just my observation, FWIW.

There is more to being a QB than throwing the better pass.

 

[Root4GT]

So Leonard played a smart game even though statistically he was worse than Pyron, and Pyron played terrible even though he was better than all of the other QBs Notre Dame has played this year. Got it.

Should’ve known not to argue with the guy who argued over the semantics of below average / not good /bad /very bad/ horrible /terrible /disastrous /horrendous all offseason.

In a stretch where the game is still competitive Pyron going 5-19 with 2 interceptions clearly poor to bad?

Let me repeat - Pyron started the game passing very well hitting the right receiver on time with accuracy. His last drive he was again accurate and on time with his throws. We got TDs in both occasions.

In between those two drives he played poorly. It is a team game so his teammates didn't help him very much but that does not change how poorly he played during that prolonged stretch.

Passing yardage in this game was a fairly meaningless statistic. Leonard never had to air it out so he didn't as his team was comfortably in control from half way thru the first quarter on. He played as his coach wanted him to play. Be conservative, don't make mistakes and take what is available on the ground or air as necessary at the lowest risk for a turnover. He made a bad throw early then he was very solid which is all that ND wanted from him that day!

 

[forensicbuzz]

I haven’t advocated for King to play hurt, or said that king could do better hurt than pyron can do healthy. I haven’t said any of that. Obviously pyron is the best option as long as king is unable to play. I have simply been arguing that a healthy pyron has not shown better than a healthy king.

Who has been arguing the counter to that? Because, that person is crazy.

Give Zack 18 games and then you can compare them when they're healthy. I don't think anyone is saying Zach, right now, is better than a healthy HK, or than Zach's performance was better than HK's when he was healthy. All that being said, Zach did a pretty good job on Saturday, all things considered. It doesn't have to be a zero sum argument.

 

[Bogey]

Who has been arguing the counter to that? Because, that person is crazy.

Exactly. King was the King last season for sure. But he has not had the same results this year, possibly due to an injury. Pyron demonstrated in the ND game he can throw in to tight coverage to mid field targets, and with ND having no fear of a running game to support him. Sure, he made some bad throws/decisions in his first game as a starter in 2 seasons, but, geez, give him a break. With King healthy, his running ability gives him the edge, and I have not seen anyone contest that fact here. It is my personal opinion if a top notch defense takes away our running game like ND was able to do and we have to go all in on our passing game, I think a healthy Pyron would fare better than a healthy King, just my opinion as of now. Let's see what happens Saturday.
I reserve my right to change my opinion when more facts are known.

 

[bke1984]

You can’t look at the score in the vacuum like that. With a tighter score, ND probably changes their strategy. They played wildly conservative on offense because it was working and it was low risk.

Yeah sure. And maybe they turn the ball over by being more aggressive. The point is that we let them play conservative by making mistakes.

 

[tmhunter52]

Just win and the rest becomes moot.

 

[roadkill]

Who has been arguing the counter to that? Because, that person is crazy.

Clearly a strawman, unless I missed something earlier in the thread.

 

[stinger78]

Clearly a strawman, unless I missed something earlier in the thread.

You missed the scarecrow.

 

[gte447f]

Who has been arguing the counter to that? Because, that person is crazy.

Exactly. King was the King last season for sure. But he has not had the same results this year, possibly due to an injury. Pyron demonstrated in the ND game he can throw in to tight coverage to mid field targets, and with ND having no fear of a running game to support him. Sure, he made some bad throws/decisions in his first game as a starter in 2 seasons, but, geez, give him a break. With King healthy, his running ability gives him the edge, and I have not seen anyone contest that fact here. It is my personal opinion if a top notch defense takes away our running game like ND was able to do and we have to go all in on our passing game, I think a healthy Pyron would fare better than a healthy King, just my opinion as of now. Let's see what happens Saturday.
I reserve my right to change my opinion when more facts are known.

Here’s your straw man. Agrees that it’s crazy and then promptly raises his hand.

Now stop gaslighting me, as the gen Z’s say.

 

[RonJohn]

Here’s your straw man. Agrees that it’s crazy and then promptly raises his hand.

Now stop gaslighting me, as the gen Z’s say.

Like @forensicbuzz was saying, it doesn't have to be a zero sum gain argument. Saying that Pyron threw better long passes Saturday than King has in several weeks doesn't have to mean that the person thinks that King sucks. Saying that King is a better scrambler than Pyron doesn't have to mean that the person thinks that Pyron sucks. My opinion is that we have two extremely good QBs. It amazes me that discussions about relative strengths of two very good QBs inevitably turns into arguments about which one sucks the most. I guess that is just the way things happen on the internet nowadays.

 

[gte447f]

I’ve not said either sucks at anything. I just don’t think pyron is a better passer than king.

 

[tomknight]

I’ve not said either sucks at anything. I just don’t think pyron is a better passer than king.

noted. maybe that can now end your argument

 

[UgaBlows]

In a stretch where the game is still competitive Pyron going 5-19 with 2 interceptions clearly poor to bad?

Let me repeat - Pyron started the game passing very well hitting the right receiver on time with accuracy. His last drive he was again accurate and on time with his throws. We got TDs in both occasions.

In between those two drives he played poorly. It is a team game so his teammates didn't help him very much but that does not change how poorly he played during that prolonged stretch.

Passing yardage in this game was a fairly meaningless statistic. Leonard never had to air it out so he didn't as his team was comfortably in control from half way thru the first quarter on. He played as his coach wanted him to play. Be conservative, don't make mistakes and take what is available on the ground or air as necessary at the lowest risk for a turnover. He made a bad throw early then he was very solid which is all that ND wanted from him that day!

Pyron didn’t forget how to pass or read coverage after the first TD down drive- ND adjusted.... ratcheted up the pressure, disguised coverages in the secondary and covered our receivers better after that

 

[stinger78]

Pyron didn’t forget how to pass or read coverage after the first TD down drive- ND adjusted.... ratcheted up the pressure, disguised coverages in the secondary and covered our receivers better after that

That first drive included 60 yards passing for ZP. He threw for 209 more yards in the next 3 quarters. He did not forget how to pass.

 

[iceeater1969]

That first drive included 60 yards passing for ZP. He threw for 209 more yards in the next 3 quarters. He did not forget how to pass.

Rewatched game again
Some real positives
Our DL looks like grown *** angry violent men who swallow up runners. Santuci is allowing DT to go strong in gaps like Duke used to do. 88 was a man child beast several times , 58 made good rush and then chased runner downfield to make a violent diving downfield tackle.

OUR CENTER IS TOUGH.

Let's not overlook how ND was able to dial up the pass rush and still stop the run. THEY ARE GOOD.
Background: ND came out camping on rg /rt where we run the bawwl. But instead of running again we had called passes. But then they got a lead so they adjusted to heavy pass rush to COLLAPSE THE POCKET.

By 4t quarter they were scheming to get grown *** man 99 on "single team blocking w space". Mostly he worked on our center on who had help. One time he got a direct sprint to qb when he was over our left guard. He initial stepped right so 72 looked to help the other way. Just as 72 took a small step right, 99 them made a quick move left and sprinted to qb.

A little later he did same thing to our center. ( in all this Pyron never looked flustered).

In 4t quarter things looked bad. Our lg was called for a prestap movement penalty. Next play, center had same call. On next play a new DT was bull rushing and got his hands up in our centers face. Not incidental - realky brutal for several seconds. OUR CENTER BLOCKED THE D T WITH HIS FACE. Thats frigging tough. During film review all the tean will see that our center is never quitting.

Also, here is a positive ccomokimetc OUR OT who in pastcwere not so good in pass blocking. They did a good job in single pass protection without a ton of TE help!

Be optimistic
Our DL and OL BOTH are very close to both playing like angry grizzly bears. Maybe the db can be inspired to tackle better.

Our DL/ OL are ready to lead the team to war. Be very optimistic.

 

[stinger78]

I believe we need to bear in mind that our O essentially led us to 20 points against a very good D with our backup QB, and the RB and TE positions badly dinged up. Meanwhile, our D held their O to 24 points.

The game got away from us in the 4th due to botching FG’s and the pick-6. Clean that (ST) up and reestablish the run and we’ll be OK going forward.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

Yeah sure. And maybe they turn the ball over by being more aggressive. The point is that we let them play conservative by making mistakes.

Do you think we win if we play a clean game?

 

[stinger78]

Do you think we win if we play a clean game?

Depends on adjustments that ND makes, but how it played out, it’s 24-20 ND with GT kicking off with about 20 seconds left. Likely not a win, but the game is seen as much closer - which the stats suggest.