Yet another CPJ vs CGC thread

[orientalnc]

This may be the wrong thread, so the mods may relocate it.

I am in Norway sightseeing and visiting friends. In a quirky moment yesterday I saw someone I assumed to be a tourist wearing a GT cap and stopped him to chat. He lives in Oslo! He asked me what I thought about coach Key and I said I am optimistic. He concurred. He added that Collins was a bad choice to follow Johnson, but wondered if anyone could have been successful with that transition. I have had that same thought during these past few seasons in spite of wanting Collins gone. Am I the only one?

 

[gtie73]

This may be the wrong thread, so the mods may relocate it.

I am in Norway sightseeing and visiting friends. In a quirky moment yesterday I saw someone I assumed to be a tourist wearing a GT cap and stopped him to chat. He lives in Oslo! He asked me what I thought about coach Key and I said I am optimistic. He concurred. He added that Collins was a bad choice to follow Johnson, but wondered if anyone could have been successful with that transition. I have had that same thought during these past few seasons in spite of wanting Collins gone. Am I the only one?

At this point you might be.

 

[Kmag]

This may be the wrong thread, so the mods may relocate it.

I am in Norway sightseeing and visiting friends. In a quirky moment yesterday I saw someone I assumed to be a tourist wearing a GT cap and stopped him to chat. He lives in Oslo! He asked me what I thought about coach Key and I said I am optimistic. He concurred. He added that Collins was a bad choice to follow Johnson, but wondered if anyone could have been successful with that transition. I have had that same thought during these past few seasons in spite of wanting Collins gone. Am I the only one?

I think it was a tough gig, and anyone would have struggled. However, there were some winnable games where coaching cost us. Then as Collins was able to put his team together we continued to see lack of attention to detail. Blown coverages, missed assignments, and special teams was a disaster. It was beyond just physical deficiencies, and running a different style offense. I am not one to trash Collins. I think he had a difficult task in taking over, but the team wasn’t responding to his coaching.

 

[Root4GT]

This may be the wrong thread, so the mods may relocate it.

I am in Norway sightseeing and visiting friends. In a quirky moment yesterday I saw someone I assumed to be a tourist wearing a GT cap and stopped him to chat. He lives in Oslo! He asked me what I thought about coach Key and I said I am optimistic. He concurred. He added that Collins was a bad choice to follow Johnson, but wondered if anyone could have been successful with that transition. I have had that same thought during these past few seasons in spite of wanting Collins gone. Am I the only one?

No

 

[slugboy]

This may be the wrong thread, so the mods may relocate it.

I am in Norway sightseeing and visiting friends. In a quirky moment yesterday I saw someone I assumed to be a tourist wearing a GT cap and stopped him to chat. He lives in Oslo! He asked me what I thought about coach Key and I said I am optimistic. He concurred. He added that Collins was a bad choice to follow Johnson, but wondered if anyone could have been successful with that transition. I have had that same thought during these past few seasons in spite of wanting Collins gone. Am I the only one?

Mike Leach always said he could institute his offense and be productive right away, and he was. Fritz made a more gradual transition at Ga Southern and was successful. Clawson and Elko had jobs that were as challenging in the ACC and they have their teams in a good place. Even if offense was a challenge, how do you explain defense and special teams?

It was possible to do a lot more with what we had in 2019, and build on it every year. Other coaches have.

For Key, he has a big challenge. Unless they’re a transfer , players on this team haven’t seen a winning season or a bowl. I don’t think we have anyone left from 2018. He has a bigger challenge than Collins—he has to get these players winning and playing solid football. He’s got to teach discipline and basic skills.

 

[Root4GT]

Mike Leach always said he could institute his offense and be productive right away, and he was. Fritz made a more gradual transition at Ga Southern and was successful. Clawson and Elko had jobs that were as challenging in the ACC and they have their teams in a good place. Even if offense was a challenge, how do you explain defense and special teams?

It was possible to do a lot more with what we had in 2019, and build on it every year. Other coaches have.

For Key, he has a big challenge. Unless they’re a transfer , players on this team haven’t seen a winning season or a bowl. I don’t think we have anyone left from 2018. He has a bigger challenge than Collins—he has to get these players winning and playing solid football. He’s got to teach discipline and basic skills.

Not going to debate CJP vs CGC as there is no debate. One was a very good coach and one was terrible.

If you think Key’s challenge is harder than CGC’s you are drunk or high.

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

Key‘s rebuild is absolutely gonna be harder than what Collins was facing. Collins inherited a program who had just gone to a bowl game and only finished below .500 in 3 of the previous 22 seasons. Key is inheriting a program that has had 4 losing seasons IN A ROW!!! GT’s football reputation has NEVER been lower which this staff is having to battle every day on the recruiting and portal trail.

Key‘s job is MUCH harder because of Collins. Now, I expect Key to be much better at the job of head coach than Collins was so while his job is much harder I expect better results. But, I also know it’s gonna take time and I hope that all of you who are predicting 7-8 wins don’t start denigrating Key when it doesn’t happen. We all hope it does but our defense is gonna be brutal. Our hope in winning ACC games is that Faulkner can scheme us to score 30plus per game because our defense is gonna get lit up.

 

[stinger 1957]

This may be the wrong thread, so the mods may relocate it.

I am in Norway sightseeing and visiting friends. In a quirky moment yesterday I saw someone I assumed to be a tourist wearing a GT cap and stopped him to chat. He lives in Oslo! He asked me what I thought about coach Key and I said I am optimistic. He concurred. He added that Collins was a bad choice to follow Johnson, but wondered if anyone could have been successful with that transition. I have had that same thought during these past few seasons in spite of wanting Collins gone. Am I the only one?

I not only think it was tough transition but even before they hired Collins I thought GT would have a hard time finding someone that was legit HC material to take the job especially with the tradition of GT committing to seeing that their athletes get a GT degree so the new coach was going to have to play with players that did not fit in the new schemes, many really only belonged in a TO type system. IMO it was always going to be several rough years. My biggest beef was the AD giving Collins a 7 year deal etc We were always going to pay a financial price for that transition but good lord we did not have to pay the price we did. But that nightmare is now over and on to the future which is feeling brighter as we go along. GO JACKETS!!!!

 

[Root4GT]

Key‘s rebuild is absolutely gonna be harder than what Collins was facing. Collins inherited a program who had just gone to a bowl game and only finished below .500 in 3 of the previous 22 seasons. Key is inheriting a program that has had 4 losing seasons IN A ROW!!! GT’s football reputation has NEVER been lower which this staff is having to battle every day on the recruiting and portal trail.

Key‘s job is MUCH harder because of Collins. Now, I expect Key to be much better at the job of head coach than Collins was so while his job is much harder I expect better results. But, I also know it’s gonna take time and I hope that all of you who are predicting 7-8 wins don’t start denigrating Key when it doesn’t happen. We all hope it does but our defense is gonna be brutal. Our hope in winning ACC games is that Faulkner can scheme us to score 30plus per game because our defense is gonna get lit up.

Funny but not even close. Matching players to scheme is very important.

Key couldn’t get a functioning OL for 4 years. That’s not on Collins. That’s having the talent to preform what is expected of OL in a non option offense.

Collins had no functional QB for a non option offense. Forced to start a true freshman in year 2 behind a god awful OL with at most one decent receiver.

Key has 3 QBs with experience in similar offenses. Key has an OL that has played in a similar offense under him for several years.

Teams need high level talent 1st. #2 Lacking high level talent what talent is on the team needs to be a good fit for the scheme.

When Collins took over we had neither. Key has #2 in spades. TBD on #1 fir Jey.

 

[cpf2001]

Collins had a hard job in year one, but seemed to recruit ok initially and nobody would blame him too much for an initial bad year.

But then his coaching made it even worse than it needed to be, and that hurt his recruiting too, and it started a downward spiral.

I absolutely believe others could’ve avoided that downward spiral.

Especially compared to a coach who also saw things decline on his watch in just a couple of years at his last stop.

 

[Root4GT]

Collins had a hard job in year one, but seemed to recruit ok initially and nobody would blame him too much for an initial bad year.

But then his coaching made it even worse than it needed to be, and that hurt his recruiting too, and it started a downward spiral.

I absolutely believe others could’ve avoided that downward spiral.

Especially compared to a coach who also saw things decline on his watch in just a couple of years at his last stop.

He sucked as a coach. No one is debating that. The transition was going to be very hard. A big reason not many coaches were interested in the GT job then. This year the transition is much easier which is why more coaches were interested and expensive.

 

[forensicbuzz]

I wonder if our OL play would have been better if Key had 100% control. I feel like Collins handcuffed our OL with scheme and practice philosophies. Our OL played significantly better after Brent Key took over as IHC and even better after than when Weinke took over playcalling.

 

[cpf2001]

He sucked as a coach. No one is debating that. The transition was going to be very hard. A big reason not many coaches were interested in the GT job then. This year the transition is much easier which is why more coaches were interested and expensive.

It doesn’t seem like THAT many coaches were interested this year. I think money was the biggest problem both then and now.

But “could anyone have been successful” is giving Collins far more of a pass than he deserves. Anyone who thinks things improved midseason under Key should see that.

 

[MWBATL]

Key couldn’t get a functioning OL for 4 years. That’s not on Collins. That’s having the talent to preform what is expected of OL in a non option offense.

While I tire of these threads, I debate this point. There have been any. number of indications that Key was NOT allowed by TPG to pick who got commitments offers, either out of HS or in the portal. The result was a reliance on portal transfers who only played for 1-23 years and as such we never jelled as an OL. That's not on Key. That's on Co%%ins. (can't bring myself to use his name)

 

[GT33]

Funny but not even close. Matching players to scheme is very important.

Key couldn’t get a functioning OL for 4 years. That’s not on Collins. That’s having the talent to preform what is expected of OL in a non option offense.

Collins had no functional QB for a non option offense. Forced to start a true freshman in year 2 behind a god awful OL with at most one decent receiver.

Key has 3 QBs with experience in similar offenses. Key has an OL that has played in a similar offense under him for several years.

Teams need high level talent 1st. #2 Lacking high level talent what talent is on the team needs to be a good fit for the scheme.

When Collins took over we had neither. Key has #2 in spades. TBD on #1 fir Jey.

If our OL comes out and sucks balls, I'll spot you point #1 and maybe your valiant defense of the worst coach in GT's history is warranted. However, most of what that will prove is Key & worst coach ever are pretty damn bad. Seriously doubt it plays out like this.

 

[rfjeff9]

When you start a game with a false start and timeout, when even the announcers start goofing on your coaching, the horrible clock managament, you gotta think it was TFG alone.

That stuff was freaking embarrassing.

 

[Root4GT]

While I tire of these threads, I debate this point. There have been any. number of indications that Key was NOT allowed by TPG to pick who got commitments offers, either out of HS or in the portal. The result was a reliance on portal transfers who only played for 1-23 years and as such we never jelled as an OL. That's not on Key. That's on Co%%ins. (can't bring myself to use his name)

Key was the OL coach. He did not have a good unit while he was the OL coach

He was a good OL coach at Bama

Bottom line is Bama had great Olinemen. GT had O linemen who were a very bad fit for any scheme other than CPJ’s scheme. The OL was going to be bad no matter who was the coach.

That was my original point about the coaching change after CJP being much harder than it is for Key this year.

And as I have said CGC sucked as a coach. That dies not negate the fact that whoever took over after CJP was going to have real serious challenges.

 

[jgtengineer]

Key was the OL coach. He did not have a good unit while he was the OL coach

He was a good OL coach at Bama

Bottom line is Bama had great Olinemen. GT had O linemen who were a very bad fit for any scheme other than CPJ’s scheme. The OL was going to be bad no matter who was the coach.

That was my original point about the coaching change after CJP being much harder than it is for Key this year.

And as I have said CGC sucked as a coach. That dies not negate the fact that whoever took over after CJP was going to have real serious challenges.

Yes and no on the OL. There were schemes that could have been ran that would not have had such a bad transition. If we had gone to a power run scheme from under center with a lot of down hill blockign out of the I and singleback. We would have had more OL fits and been running a pro style offense albeit one from the late 90s. Mason would have eat in that gettign 20-30 carries a game. Would we have won more? Maybe we also could have been shut down just as much but we atleast would have had an identity. Combien that with traditional gun sets and passing concepts we are basically running a jimbo fisher offense from bowden's better FSU teams.

We ironically went to an actual high school offense.

 

[awbuzz]

I think it was a tough gig, and anyone would have struggled. However, there were some winnable games where coaching cost us. Then as Collins was able to put his team together we continued to see lack of attention to detail. Blown coverages, missed assignments, and special teams was a disaster. It was beyond just physical deficiencies, and running a different style offense. I am not one to trash Collins. I think he had a difficult task in taking over, but the team wasn’t responding to his coaching.

... Add poor clock management the TFG had problems too. Go back to the Citadel game in season 1...

 

[FlatsLander]

I think the transition didn't have to be as bad as CGC made it out to be. He did everything he could to disconnect from the option identify we had under Johnson, and in doing so, he forced us into an offense that we didn't have personnel for. You could have gone to a more typical Malzahn-type offense with our 2019 personnel (running QB with single option handoffs, 11 personnel, Spread concepts, etc.) and at least not have looked like we never practiced. Not saying we even needed Malzahn, just someone in that vein like Norvell or someone similar.