WSB Trashing TECH RECRUITING

Northeast Stinger

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If you don't think facts and examples are important to support claims, I apologize then. Maybe it's just me, but just because a website says "Stanford has no minimum admissions requirements", doesn't mean in practice that's what they do...as the overwhelming evidence has shown.
Against my better judgement I have to ask, is the website not telling the truth in your opinion?

I have no dog in this fight so please do not think I am taking a side or trying to be snarky. It is just that from my own experience, when I worked in academia for a brief time, I found that many colleges try to balance their student body by focusing on a variety of gifts and talents, not just SAT scores. It seems reasonable to me that Stanford's website is not trying to be misleading but actually stating their policy.

Now how you pick those academic exceptions is a whole different conversation but I do believe it is something many schools do today.
 

AE 87

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Against my better judgement I have to ask, is the website not telling the truth in your opinion?

I have no dog in this fight so please do not think I am taking a side or trying to be snarky. It is just that from my own experience, when I worked in academia for a brief time, I found that many colleges try to balance their student body by focusing on a variety of gifts and talents, not just SAT scores. It seems reasonable to me that Stanford's website is not trying to be misleading but actually stating their policy.

Now how you pick those academic exceptions is a whole different conversation but I do believe it is something many schools do today.

I think @Techster understands this. I believe he is arguing against the notion that Stanford has no standards, i.e. they can and do just let anybody in. He is correct in that point of view; however, he also seems to suggest that I and/or others have suggested something to the contrary. So, I suspect that he may have misinterpreted my point in some of my posts and is arguing against the point that he thinks I've been making instead of my actual point.
 

Techster

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Against my better judgement I have to ask, is the website not telling the truth in your opinion?

I have no dog in this fight so please do not think I am taking a side or trying to be snarky. It is just that from my own experience, when I worked in academia for a brief time, I found that many colleges try to balance their student body by focusing on a variety of gifts and talents, not just SAT scores. It seems reasonable to me that Stanford's website is not trying to be misleading but actually stating their policy.

Now how you pick those academic exceptions is a whole different conversation but I do believe it is something many schools do today.

Let's take it back to why Stanford is even being mentioned at all on this board. Simply put, there's a group that thinks "If Stanford can compete at a high level on the field and in the classroom, why can't GT?". Then there's another group that believes Stanford hides behind the opaque "no minimum requirements" in order to field the model program for top tier academic schools (of which GT would belong).

Now, is Stanford lying about their touted "no minimum standards"? No, they are not lying in the literal sense because if you don't put a "line in the sand", no one can blame you for not holding that line in future. However, it is implied that there are standards, and the link (and links to past years' candidates) with the applicant/admitted profile attests to that. Further to that point, as it applies to GT and the current state of GT and Stanford's programs, when people insinuate that Stanford liberally uses the "no minimum requirements" in some sinister way to cull less desireable recruits for better ones, that's just disingenuous because...well, where's the proof? If someone expressly states, or insinuates that Stanford is less than genuine about the recruiting process, or if it was GT that was doing it...wouldn't you ask, "Show me the evidence"? Hence, my examples.

Listen, I don't want anyone to take my side, nor do I care to start a "fight". It's obvious that some on here are backtracking on their previous stance about Stanford liberally using the "no minimum requirements" excuse to minimize Stanford's success, and trying to turn it into a debate on semantics. Fine, that's their perogative.
 

Northeast Stinger

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I think @Techster understands this. I believe he is arguing against the notion that Stanford has no standards, i.e. they can and do just let anybody in. He is correct in that point of view; however, he also seems to suggest that I and/or others have suggested something to the contrary. So, I suspect that he may have misinterpreted my point in some of my posts and is arguing against the point that he thinks I've been making instead of my actual point.
I see.
 

Northeast Stinger

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I think this is one of those arguments, kind of like some I have seen in the past, where people may actually agree on the essential facts but are "concerned" about a particular spin of those facts, or at least their perception that there is a spin going on.

I guess by way of interrogatory the next thing to solve for is whether or not it is "sinister" for Stanford to allow in a football player who does not get in strictly on the basis of grades but gets in by virtue of other gifts he brings to the campus community. It makes sense to me that they might do this, just as Tech allows for some exceptions for football players. As I think this through I guess I am seeing where the conflict in this discussion lies. A player waiting to see if he qualifies for Stanford is in fact a screening process. If Stanford can pick and choose which athletes get in and which do not, is that dishonest given their official statement? No. But is does mean that there is some fluidity with regard to their standards for athletes.

I don't believe they are abusing this in any way but it does leave somewhat open the question of whether or not their standards are commensurate with Tech's.
 

Buzz776g

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I wanna know who Stanford has let in that couldn't get into Tech.
That's a very good question, and I can't offer a known, concrete example.

But let's say a 17-year old did some published, original art history research in Europe instead of studying for the SAT. Think they'd look favorably on that? I do.

http://humsci.stanford.edu/departments/visit/art_art_history

What if a 16-year old wrote a play and got it staged by a recognized theater in a medium-sized city instead of studying for the SAT? Think they'd look favorably on that?

http://taps.stanford.edu/

Would either of these be likely to be gifted athletes as well? I doubt it, but it's not impossible.
 

dressedcheeseside

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That's a very good question, and I can't offer a known, concrete example.

But let's say a 17-year old did some published, original art history research in Europe instead of studying for the SAT. Think they'd look favorably on that? I do.

http://humsci.stanford.edu/departments/visit/art_art_history

What if a 16-year old wrote a play and got it staged by a recognized theater in a medium-sized city instead of studying for the SAT? Think they'd look favorably on that?

http://taps.stanford.edu/

Would either of these be likely to be gifted athletes as well? I doubt it, but it's not impossible.
The problem with that train of thought is Football is not a degree program. Art, music, theatre, etc.... are. Auditions and portfolios are typically required for consideration in fine and performing art schools.
 

Northeast Stinger

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But she raises a good point. Football is indeed not a degree program but every football players has to major in something.

When my daughter was accepted into a prestigious New England University, even though her grades and SAT were well below the average accepted for that school, she was able to stand out because of other factors not related to academics. In short, she was from Georgia and she had other qualities that would otherwise be missing from the profile for that entering class.

It is an art, not a science, but most schools today try to balance classes with a number of factors. You only have to exhibit a talent or gift lacking in that entering class. Otherwise, if the Ivy League schools only went by SAT and GPA, they would be filled almost exclusively with White Females and Asian Males.
 

strong90

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You guys are kidding yourselves if you think many, if any, of the admitted students with lower SAT scores are child prodigies in music, art, sciences, etc. Some, maybe. A few more with other desirable traits (e.g. demographics, life experience), perhaps. But common sense tells me the vast major are elite athletes in the revenue generating sports. Do they add value to the university as students? Maybe so.
 

dressedcheeseside

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But she raises a good point. Football is indeed not a degree program but every football players has to major in something.

When my daughter was accepted into a prestigious New England University, even though her grades and SAT were well below the average accepted for that school, she was able to stand out because of other factors not related to academics. In short, she was from Georgia and she had other qualities that would otherwise be missing from the profile for that entering class.

It is an art, not a science, but most schools today try to balance classes with a number of factors. You only have to exhibit a talent or gift lacking in that entering class. Otherwise, if the Ivy League schools only went by SAT and GPA, they would be filled almost exclusively with White Females and Asian Males.
What you suggest is probably happening as a tie breaker more than something that stands on it's own. What I mean is when the cream of the crop liberal arts colleges have two equally qualified academic credentials, the extra curricular comparison breaks the tie. There are so many applicants with extremely high academic profiles, they must certainly have an academic floor. If not explicit, then it's purely by way of competition. They have more than enough of these kinds of applicants to create a diversified class, if that is their desire.

I am sure there are exceptions to this in the cases of prodigies.
 

Techster

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You guys are kidding yourselves if you think many, if any, of the admitted students with lower SAT scores are child prodigies in music, art, sciences, etc. Some, maybe. A few more with other desirable traits (e.g. demographics, life experience), perhaps. But common sense tells me the vast major are elite athletes in the revenue generating sports. Do they add value to the university as students? Maybe so.

I read once that the biggest source of "special admits" at prestigious colleges comes from the children of very rich alumni or very generous donors. In terms of Stanford, of 2,142 admitted students, only 3% had a GPA lower than 3.7, and only 3% did NOT graduate in the top 20% of their class. That's roughly 64 "special" admits for the 2015 class. That fits with my VERY unscientific research (searching the internet for recruits GPA and test scores) on the GPA and test scores of various high level recruits Stanford signed the past couple of seasons.

What's interesting in my VERY unscientific research was the lowest GPA for a recruit I could find for a Stanford recruit was....Christian McCaffery. The Heisman runner-up last season. Coming out of HS, he sported a 3.5 GPA and scored a 24 on his ACT (according to his Rivals recruiting profile). If the "norm" for a Stanford admit is a GPA 3.7 and above, then you would assume that McCaffery was a "special admit". In terms of comparison, CM is obviously below the "benchmark" for the general student population at Stanford, but in terms of the "average" (or however you want to classify it) recruited SA in a P5 conference, McCaffery is probably in the top 95% of his athletic peers. So did Stanford use the gifted "special" admit for CM...it's safe to assume that relative to the profile of the general student population. However, it's not as if Stanford had to stretch the boundaries of what's acceptable for the general population to admit CM. A 3.5 GPA is VERY good, whether you're a athlete or "normal" student. CM's parents are also prominent Stanford alums (father played football, mother played soccer for the Tree). Would CM get into Stanford without football? Debateable, but not necessarily out of the realm of possibility.

In comparison to GT, in my VERY unscientific research, the lowest GPA for a recruit I could find was 3.0 (an OL who is graduating this Spring). That's still a very respectable GPA, and pretty good GPA for a recruited SA. In comparison to GT's general population ( http://admission.gatech.edu/images/pdf/2015_freshman_profile_web.pdf ) it's tougher to make the case that the recruit (now a full fledged GT SA) would have gotten in without football.

The point of this isn't to denigrate GT's recruiting, because we're obviously finding SAs who can do the work (as the 90% grad rate attests to), but to make the point that even with "no minimum requirements", Stanford still has pretty high standards for their recruited SAs. Does playing football help with admissions? Without a doubt, much in the same way it does for recruits at pretty much every school (anyone thinks 90% of UGAs recruits get in without football?). It's pretty silly though, with all the evidence available, to say or insinuate that Stanford hides behind their "no minimum requirements" to admit SAs on the basis of their football ability alone.
 

GTHOSCHTON

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Question? why don't we have billboards in every town we signed a recruiting telling everyone who is coming to Tech?? One of the Nations best schools??
our marketing sucks and you can thank MBOB, I really don't think he has a clue??
 

Skeptic

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....Christian McCaffery. The Heisman runner-up last season. Coming out of HS, he sported a 3.5 GPA and scored a 24 on his ACT (according to his Rivals recruiting profile). If the "norm" for a Stanford admit is a GPA 3.7 and above, then you would assume that McCaffery was a "special admit". In terms of comparison, CM is obviously below the "benchmark" for the general student population at Stanford, but in terms of the "average" (or however you want to classify it) recruited SA in a P5 conference, McCaffery is probably in the top 95% of his athletic peers. So did Stanford use the gifted "special" admit for CM...it's safe to assume that relative to the profile of the general student population. However, it's not as if Stanford had to stretch the boundaries of what's acceptable for the general population to admit CM. A 3.5 GPA is VERY good, whether you're a athlete or "normal" student. CM's parents are also prominent Stanford alums (father played football, mother played soccer for the Tree). Would CM get into Stanford without football? Debateable, but not necessarily out of the realm of possibility.
A good question and a fair one, though I am just guessing that in addition to very prominent parents and an unbelievable athletic tree, McCaffrey's uncle played at Vanderbilt and his older brother at Duke, and both went through tough schools fine. that is -- I am still guessing -- also one of the pointers admissions looks for.

But as for the point of legacy admits, well, yes. George Bush in Yale? John Kennedy in Harvard? The wonder of it all.
 

Northeast Stinger

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What you suggest is probably happening as a tie breaker more than something that stands on it's own. What I mean is when the cream of the crop liberal arts colleges have two equally qualified academic credentials, the extra curricular comparison breaks the tie. There are so many applicants with extremely high academic profiles, they must certainly have an academic floor. If not explicit, then it's purely by way of competition. They have more than enough of these kinds of applicants to create a diversified class, if that is their desire.

I am sure there are exceptions to this in the cases of prodigies.
I agree.
 

dressedcheeseside

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It's pretty silly though, with all the evidence available, to say or insinuate that Stanford hides behind their "no minimum requirements" to admit SAs on the basis of their football ability alone.
This is the bottom line to your long post so I quoted it and I fully agree. We have no room to cry about Stanford's admits when our guys credentials are lower. Heck, just look at the kid Drob who got into GT and is still waiting on a passing score for Stanford. You'd think they'd be bending every rule in the book to sign a 5* player.
 
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Question? why don't we have billboards in every town we signed a recruiting telling everyone who is coming to Tech?? One of the Nations best schools??
our marketing sucks and you can thank MBOB, I really don't think he has a clue??
I hope you don't think it was any better before MBob. Tech marketing has always sucked. Will MBob make it better? I certainly think he wants to. Has he? It doesn't appear that he has so far.
 

Techster

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This is the bottom line to your long post so I quoted it and I fully agree. We have no room to cry about Stanford's admits when our guys credentials are lower. Heck, just look at the kid Drob who got into GT and is still waiting on a passing score for Stanford. You'd think they'd be bending every rule in the book to sign a 5* player.

I agree with your agreement. :)

In all seriousness, what gets lost in all of this Stanford/GT debate is GT isn't too far away from achieving what Stanford does in recruiting. Granted, Stanford had an exceptional class this cycle for their standards (7/25 signees are 4 or 5 stars). For the most part, Stanford signs the 2 and 3 star recruits that they think they can develop for their system (pretty much what GT does), but they also supplement it with the those elite recruits. As I've been saying all along, if GT can sign those 3-5 elite recruits every year to go along with the developmental type recruits who grow in our system, there's no reason we can't be a regular presence in the top 25. We almost did it this year, but unfortunately, we were the bridesmaid with Finley, Campbell, Carter, and probably Robertson.
 

dressedcheeseside

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I agree with your agreement. :)

In all seriousness, what gets lost in all of this Stanford/GT debate is GT isn't too far away from achieving what Stanford does in recruiting. Granted, Stanford had an exceptional class this cycle for their standards (7/25 signees are 4 or 5 stars). For the most part, Stanford signs the 2 and 3 star recruits that they think they can develop for their system (pretty much what GT does), but they also supplement it with the those elite recruits. As I've been saying all along, if GT can sign those 3-5 elite recruits every year to go along with the developmental type recruits who grow in our system, there's no reason we can't be a regular presence in the top 25. We almost did it this year, but unfortunately, we were the bridesmaid with Finley, Campbell, Carter, and probably Robertson.
Agree with your agreement of my agreement. :D

Another consideration is that probably some of our signees are not projects at all and were underrated by the services. Some of the twos are easily threes and some of the threes are easily fours.
 
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