Willie Fritz and the spread option

[alagold]

Willie Fritz doesn't run the triple option, but is used to this kind of personnel. Of course, the best option was Monken or Niumatalolo. Do that and the team is 5-1 right now.

Not tanking your program for 3 years should have been a legitimate consideration. Lots of damage can occur in 2-3 years of very bad results.

5-1,? that is a really rash statement--maybe 3-2 but very doubtful anybody could cover up our DL/LB weakness and probably not OL either.Remember Braun was leaving anyway.

 

[RickStromFan]

I disagree with him but I don't think his opinion is garbage. Just like some have reason to believe an option scheme has and can succeed at the P5 level. There are plenty of reasonable people who think it will never appeal to the elite players that everyone covets. I don't agree with that but I can see why they have that opinion.

I mean, so far it has NOT appealed to the elite players everyone covets. That's not an opinion at this point - it's fact. It's one of several reasons other P5 schools flat-out aren't running this scheme nor came after PJ for openings nor Monken nor Ken N.

His opinion isn't garbage but unfortunately, those sorts of responses are common from the pro PJ side of the aisle when they hear something they don't like. All I can say is that, in PJ's best season with his best-recruited players, we still managed to lose 3 times and were close to another 2 (VPI, GSU). It was 2 losses away from a CFP and these weren't losses to powerhouse programs.

 

[Pointer]

I disagree with him but I don't think his opinion is garbage. Just like some have reason to believe an option scheme has and can succeed at the P5 level. There are plenty of reasonable people who think it will never appeal to the elite players that everyone covets. I don't agree with that but I can see why they have that opinion.

Yes that was too much I apologise.

 

[Sidewalking]

I mean, so far it has NOT appealed to the elite players everyone covets. That's not an opinion at this point - it's fact. It's one of several reasons other P5 schools flat-out aren't running this scheme nor came after PJ for openings nor Monken nor Ken N.

His opinion isn't garbage but unfortunately, those sorts of responses are common from the pro PJ side of the aisle when they hear something they don't like. All I can say is that, in PJ's best season with his best-recruited players, we still managed to lose 3 times and were close to another 2 (VPI, GSU). It was 2 losses away from a CFP and these weren't losses to powerhouse programs.

Now you are taking the "too extreme" position. Shaq, Braun, Bryan, and JT are just a few elite players Tech landed with the last staff. Also some RBs that didn't pan out and stick for differing reasons. It's a fallacy to say no elite players ever signed. They did. Just not as much as we would like. The same can be said for every Tech staff the last half dozen decades I think.

 

[MountainBuzzMan]

I think it's pretty clear that the prior scheme had a negative impact on recruiting. Apparently for both sides of the ball. Tech was never able to dispel the false narratives about the scheme on offense, for whatever reason though willful ignorance seems a large contributing factor. I think it's also pretty clear the offense was elite with the right pieces in place and even in "down years" was at minimum good. Defense was clearly subpar most years and maybe just decent in the best years. I think it's also pretty clear Tech doesn't wish to enter the funding war in athletics. I see little reason to think that will ever change. For every regime the good and the bad falls at the feet of the relevant staffs, the athletic administration, alumni support, and the school leadership.

I think Collins can recruit better than we have in a while. Heck he might end up recruiting better than anyone going back to Dodd. He will have to work extremely hard if Tech remains unwilling to fund the program like other school are today.

As to this season and the talent vs coaching debates. It seems pretty obvious that a season this bad thus far is due to some deficiencies in both areas. The season isn't over yet though and the last half of the year can potentially be a building block to a better season next year.

People keep saying this stuff, but also we were FAR behind in recruiting resources compared to just about everyone in our conference. Imagine if we would have put the resources in CPJ when we had that idiot BB AD instead of removing resources. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. I tend to think if we were winning more and truly competing for championships with a real recruiting budget we would have gotten way over the hump and would be winning the ACC a few times and getting into the playoffs.

Also, recruiting while obviously important is over emphasized. You need to be able to freaking coach! Something so many teams fail at and we may be heading down that path. I am rooting for CGC, but I think he is in a learning mode at our expense. I hope he is a fast study.

 

[RickStromFan]

Now you are taking the "too extreme" position. Shaq, Braun, Bryan, and JT are just a few elite players Tech landed with the last staff. Also some RBs that didn't pan out and stick for differing reasons. It's a fallacy to say no elite players ever signed. They did. Just not as much as we would like. The same can be said for every Tech staff the last half dozen decades I think.

now you are taking the 'revisionist history' position. While they absolutely turned out to be elite players, neither Shaq nor Braun were considered 'elite' talent when they were 3-star recruits we were going after.
JT was a 4-star recruit but we were the only ones who recruited him to play QB - other schools didn't see him as an elite QB. Good thing he was a great fit for our scheme.

Also, I did not say "NO elite players were EVER signed". Rather, I said "so far it has NOT appealed to the elite players everyone covets". That's still an accurate statement.

 

[GTpdm]

All I can say is that, in PJ's best season with his best-recruited players, we still managed to lose 3 times and were close to another 2 (VPI, GSU). It was 2 losses away from a CFP and these weren't losses to powerhouse programs.

All I can say is that, in regard to our best season since 1990(*), there are still a lot of fans who want to find reasons why we shouldn’t celebrate it, and would prefer to put an asterisk next to it in the annals of GT history.

We ended that season playing four teams that wound up ranked in the top 15 in the nation, and beat three of them. One of those victories was against a team that spent a few weeks at #1 in the CFP standings...and we thrashed them in the Orange Bowl...in front of a national audience. WE BEAT THE DWAGS IN ATHENS...despite a considerable amount of SEC home-cooking.

I really don’t give a damn about all this CPJ-vs-CGC shoving match. Could y’all just not get so deer-with-locked-horns obstinate that you have to denigrate what was a great season?

(*) Okay, okay. O’Leary 1998 (10-2) might get the edge, but not by much.

 

[SteamWhistle]

No Tech is not like any other place that you get out what you put in...I have degrees from two schools, same major. Worked twice as hard at Tech had had a full point difference in GPA(lower at Tech). We would go out drinking the night before an exam at my second Uni. It was a joke.
Not only do they need the ability to meet the coursework......they must WANT to. Frankly, I find amazing that Tech athletes can and do achieve their degrees as well as perform on the field.

It’s way easier for Football players than the average student.

 

[SteamWhistle]

You know that it only takes one counter-example to disprove a proposition, right? The proposition was that Braun had no hope of going to the NFL by staying here. Shaq is the counter-example that blows that proposition out of the water. If you're good enough to make the NFL as an OL'man, it doesn't matter if what program you played for in college. Do you think the reason none of our other OL made the NFL was because they weren't talented enough or because they played at GT? If it was because they played at GT, then the Shaq Mason story wouldn't exist. Since it does, it couldn't have been because they played at GT.

And, we actually did have a couple more - Cord Howard had a cup of coffee and Omoregie Uzzi was looked at closely but his injury kept him from it - he had to have surgery after his last season.

If Braun is good enough to make in in the league, he'd make it from Texas or GT, and if he's not he wouldn't make it from Texas nor GT.

So one is example enough? Is Central Michigan a WR factory because of AB? It’s not fair to include one outlier and present it as overwhelming data.

 

[year_of_the_swarm]

5-1,? that is a really rash statement--maybe 3-2 but very doubtful anybody could cover up our DL/LB weakness and probably not OL either.Remember Braun was leaving anyway.

Long post here, so forgive me... Let me see if I can convince someone... If I assume Braun was leaving anyway.... The team is 5-1 with Ken or Monken.

QB: Tobias Oliver
Appeared in 12 games but made only one start in place of injured starter TaQuon Marshall – Oct. 25 at Virginia Tech … Despite making only one start, ranked second on the team, 10th in the ACC and 75th nationally in rushing with 876 yards (73.0 per game) … Led Georgia Tech, ranked fourth in the ACC and 34th nationally with 12 rushing touchdowns … Led team, ranked fifth in the ACC and 43rd nationally (min. 10 carries per game) with 5.76 yards per carry … 12 total touchdowns were good for fourth in the ACC and 57th nationally … 876 rushing yards was the sixth-highest single-season rushing total by a quarterback in Georgia Tech history … 12 touchdown runs were the fifth-most by a QB and tied for the 10th-most overall in school history … In his only start, rushed for 215 yards and three touchdowns on 40 carries to lead Georgia Tech to a nationally televised, primetime victory at Virginia Tech

BB: Kirvonte Benson
-ALL ACC... started all 11 games and established himself as one of the nation’s top running backs … Put together the 16th 1,000-yard rushing season in Georgia Tech history with 1,053 yards … Ranked fourth in the ACC and 35th nationally with 95.7 rushing yards per game … Averaged 5.2 yards per carry, good for ninth in the ACC

BB: Jordan Mason
AS A FRESHMAN.... Ranked third on the team overall and first among running backs with 659 rushing yards and seven touchdowns … Averaged 6.1 yards per carry … Burst out of the gates, rushing for 274 yards over the first three games of his career – 85 vs. Alcorn State, 95 at USF (Sept. 8) and 94 at Pitt … Rushed for 61 yards and two touchdowns in rout over Bowling Green (Sept. 29) … Gashed Louisville for 78 yards and a touchdown (Oct. 5) … Ran for 82 yards and three touchdowns on just 12 carries in romp at Virginia Tech (Oct. 25)

AB: Nate Cottrell
AB: Dontae Smith
WR: Jalen Camp
WR: Malachi Carter
WR: Adonicas Sanders
C: Kenny Cooper - Has 22 starts at center in his career.. Has been named ACC offensive lineman of the week.
OL: Jahaziel Lee - Returning starter.. 15 games.
OL: Connor Hansen - Returning starter... 11 games
OL: Zach Quinney - Returning starter... 12 games

Logic

Quarterback
You likely have the best rushing offense in the nation with this group... Tobias Oliver was born to run the option. He is 6'2'', fast, hard to bring down. Let me put it this way.... the guy ran for 807 yards and didn't even start 5 games. Didn't even play in a few games. Came in when the team was up on Louisville, Bowling Green, and Alcorn when TQM got pulled because it was a blowout... 8 carries for 103 yards against Louisville, 7 carries for 115 yards against Bowling Green. Just mop-up duty stuff... In the TWO games where he was the primary quarterback... against Virginia Tech and North Carolina... he had 439 yards and 6 touchdowns... What happens if he gets 30 carries against Bowling Green? 30 carries against Louisville? 30 carries against Alcorn State? Etc

Fellow board members..... 439 yards and 6 touchdowns in 2 games. Nearly a 1,000 yard rusher as the friggin backup. We had a 1,500 yard rusher coming in at QB here. 49 points in 1 game, 38 points in the other.

BB
Oliver looked very promising, but Mason and Benson are legit BB's... Benson is all conference, Mason is a very good BB, Jerry Howard is good in certain situations too... Very promising production out of the BB's.

AB
Was going to take a hit with Lynch and Searcy graduating... but Nate is an experienced player and Dontae Smith is a promising player... Was going to be heavy dose of BB's and Tobias Oliver.

WR
All experienced guys... big guys.. great blockers...

OL
Returned a bunch of guys... you have a REALLY good offensive line if Parker Braun is back, but this line was pretty good for the option. They are just having to learn all new schemes. These guys have been cut blocking for years, and he moved Lee off the line who was one of the better athletes in the offensive line.

Schedule
The Citadel - WIN... Probably put up 65 points with 400+ rushing yards. Over at halftime.
South Florida - WIN... USF is really bad this year... Oliver tore them up the year before.. Probably score at least 35-42 points.
Temple - WIN... Temple didn't do much offensively this year.. but the GT offense got shut out. When you have the best rushing offense in the nation, you don't get shut out by Temple.
UNC - Win... Beat them the last two seasons... They scored 38 points this year because they ran 97 plays. When you have the best rushing offense in the nation, your opponent doesn't run 97 plays against you. UNC had 34 first downs this year. They ran 65 plays this year against GT, and 58 plays the year before that.
Duke - TOSSUP... They play Georgia Tech pretty well but don't have Daniel Jones anymore... GT fumbled the ball 6 times against them last year, losing it on 3 or 4 straight possessions. Was a tie game before that, but they just kept giving the ball away.

4-2 worst case, 5-1 a real chance.... It was hard to forget about Kirvonte because he was out all year with injury, but he was a very good player... and getting Tobias in there for his first full year as the bonafide starter, getting all the first team reps through the spring and summer, etc would have made a huge impact on him after an unbelievable statistical season for a backup quarterback. Who's backup QB runs for 807 yards and 12 touchdowns and doesn't even really play in several games? Not to mention Monken and Ken can game-plan with the best of them... Nobody wants to play those guys.

 

[RickStromFan]

All I can say is that, in regard to our best season since 1990(*), there are still a lot of fans who want to find reasons why we shouldn’t celebrate it, and would prefer to put an asterisk next to it in the annals of GT history.

We ended that season playing four teams that wound up ranked in the top 15 in the nation, and beat three of them. One of those victories was against a team that spent a few weeks at #1 in the CFP standings...and we thrashed them in the Orange Bowl...in front of a national audience. WE BEAT THE DWAGS IN ATHENS...despite a considerable amount of SEC home-cooking.

I really don’t give a damn about all this CPJ-vs-CGC shoving match. Could y’all just not get so deer-with-locked-horns obstinate that you have to denigrate what was a great season?

(*) Okay, okay. O’Leary 1998 (10-2) might get the edge, but not by much.

It was a great season. I think 1998 was better but 2014 was still a ton of fun, mostly at the end. The 2 losses after 5-0 start took a bit of momentum out of it for me, as did the loss to FSU.
It's not denigration to point out that we lost 3X that season. Just a fact.

 

[Jim Prather]

Long post here, so forgive me... Let me see if I can convince someone... If I assume Braun was leaving anyway.... The team is 5-1 with Ken or Monken.

QB: Tobias Oliver
Appeared in 12 games but made only one start in place of injured starter TaQuon Marshall – Oct. 25 at Virginia Tech … Despite making only one start, ranked second on the team, 10th in the ACC and 75th nationally in rushing with 876 yards (73.0 per game) … Led Georgia Tech, ranked fourth in the ACC and 34th nationally with 12 rushing touchdowns … Led team, ranked fifth in the ACC and 43rd nationally (min. 10 carries per game) with 5.76 yards per carry … 12 total touchdowns were good for fourth in the ACC and 57th nationally … 876 rushing yards was the sixth-highest single-season rushing total by a quarterback in Georgia Tech history … 12 touchdown runs were the fifth-most by a QB and tied for the 10th-most overall in school history … In his only start, rushed for 215 yards and three touchdowns on 40 carries to lead Georgia Tech to a nationally televised, primetime victory at Virginia Tech

BB: Kirvonte Benson
-ALL ACC... started all 11 games and established himself as one of the nation’s top running backs … Put together the 16th 1,000-yard rushing season in Georgia Tech history with 1,053 yards … Ranked fourth in the ACC and 35th nationally with 95.7 rushing yards per game … Averaged 5.2 yards per carry, good for ninth in the ACC

BB: Jordan Mason
AS A FRESHMAN.... Ranked third on the team overall and first among running backs with 659 rushing yards and seven touchdowns … Averaged 6.1 yards per carry … Burst out of the gates, rushing for 274 yards over the first three games of his career – 85 vs. Alcorn State, 95 at USF (Sept. 8) and 94 at Pitt … Rushed for 61 yards and two touchdowns in rout over Bowling Green (Sept. 29) … Gashed Louisville for 78 yards and a touchdown (Oct. 5) … Ran for 82 yards and three touchdowns on just 12 carries in romp at Virginia Tech (Oct. 25)

AB: Nate Cottrell
AB: Dontae Smith
WR: Jalen Camp
WR: Malachi Carter
WR: Adonicas Sanders
C: Kenny Cooper - Has 22 starts at center in his career.. Has been named ACC offensive lineman of the week.
OL: Jahaziel Lee - Returning starter.. 15 games.
OL: Connor Hansen - Returning starter... 11 games
OL: Zach Quinney - Returning starter... 12 games

Logic

Quarterback
You likely have the best rushing offense in the nation with this group... Tobias Oliver was born to run the option. He is 6'2'', fast, hard to bring down. Let me put it this way.... the guy ran for 807 yards and didn't even start 5 games. Didn't even play in a few games. Came in when the team was up on Louisville, Bowling Green, and Alcorn when TQM got pulled because it was a blowout... 8 carries for 103 yards against Louisville, 7 carries for 115 yards against Bowling Green. Just mop-up duty stuff... In the TWO games where he was the primary quarterback... against Virginia Tech and North Carolina... he had 439 yards and 6 touchdowns... What happens if he gets 30 carries against Bowling Green? 30 carries against Louisville? 30 carries against Alcorn State? Etc

Fellow board members..... 439 yards and 6 touchdowns in 2 games. Nearly a 1,000 yard rusher as the friggin backup. We had a 1,500 yard rusher coming in at QB here. 49 points in 1 game, 38 points in the other.

BB
Oliver looked very promising, but Mason and Benson are legit BB's... Benson is all conference, Mason is a very good BB, Jerry Howard is good in certain situations too... Very promising production out of the BB's.

AB
Was going to take a hit with Lynch and Searcy graduating... but Nate is an experienced player and Dontae Smith is a promising player... Was going to be heavy dose of BB's and Tobias Oliver.

WR
All experienced guys... big guys.. great blockers...

OL
Returned a bunch of guys... you have a REALLY good offensive line if Parker Braun is back, but this line was pretty good for the option. They are just having to learn all new schemes. These guys have been cut blocking for years, and he moved Lee off the line who was one of the better athletes in the offensive line.

Schedule
The Citadel - WIN... Probably put up 65 points with 400+ rushing yards. Over at halftime.
South Florida - WIN... USF is really bad this year... Oliver tore them up the year before.. Probably score at least 35-42 points.
Temple - WIN... Temple didn't do much offensively this year.. but the GT offense got shut out. When you have the best rushing offense in the nation, you don't get shut out by Temple.
UNC - Win... Beat them the last two seasons... They scored 38 points this year because they ran 97 plays. When you have the best rushing offense in the nation, your opponent doesn't run 97 plays against you. UNC had 34 first downs this year. They ran 65 plays this year against GT, and 58 plays the year before that.
Duke - TOSSUP... They play Georgia Tech pretty well but don't have Daniel Jones anymore... GT fumbled the ball 6 times against them last year, losing it on 3 or 4 straight possessions. Was a tie game before that, but they just kept giving the ball away.

4-2 worst case, 5-1 a real chance.... It was hard to forget about Kirvonte because he was out all year with injury, but he was a very good player... and getting Tobias in there for his first full year as the bonafide starter, getting all the first team reps through the spring and summer, etc would have made a huge impact on him after an unbelievable statistical season for a backup quarterback. Who's backup QB runs for 807 yards and 12 touchdowns and doesn't even really play in several games? Not to mention Monken and Ken can game-plan with the best of them... Nobody wants to play those guys.

Good post... we do forget about some of the players we had coming back who were excellently suited for what we did...

 

[pbrown520]

It was a great season. I think 1998 was better but 2014 was still a ton of fun, mostly at the end. The 2 losses after 5-0 start took a bit of momentum out of it for me, as did the loss to FSU.
It's not denigration to point out that we lost 3X that season. Just a fact.

I think it mostly comes down to personal preference. 1998 saw a loss to a bad BC team and a big loss to FSU, but a win against top 15 UGA and top 20 ND. 2014 had losses to bad Duke and UNC, win over top 10 UGA and close loss to CFP FSU, then big win over top 10 MSU.

 

[GTpdm]

It was a great season. I think 1998 was better but 2014 was still a ton of fun, mostly at the end. The 2 losses after 5-0 start took a bit of momentum out of it for me, as did the loss to FSU.
It's not denigration to point out that we lost 3X that season. Just a fact.

Commendable reply, but:
(a) Dang...I thought that three (or less) losses in a season was something that we are shooting for; three losses pretty much means at least a 10-win season.

...but on the other hand...

(b) Yeah, those those particular losses were painful. I just wanted to remind everyone that the later wins over top-ranked teams were fact, too...and I think they outweigh the earlier losses.

I guess my main point was that I'm kinda tired of seeing the 2014 season being used as the hapless child in a hostile divorce..."Mom" and "Dad" just need to butt out and let 2014 be what it was—exceptional.

 

[Sidewalking]

now you are taking the 'revisionist history' position. While they absolutely turned out to be elite players, neither Shaq nor Braun were considered 'elite' talent when they were 3-star recruits we were going after.
JT was a 4-star recruit but we were the only ones who recruited him to play QB - other schools didn't see him as an elite QB. Good thing he was a great fit for our scheme.

Also, I did not say "NO elite players were EVER signed". Rather, I said "so far it has NOT appealed to the elite players everyone covets". That's still an accurate statement.

And that is one of the many problems with the "services." Braun shut down his recruiting early. A ton of factories would have taken him if he hadn't and his star rating would have increased rather than decreased. Another problem with services is camp participation. Not every prospect goes to camps to get rated. There are problems with the services whether you wish to acknowledge it or not. They can provide some good info. But they are no end all be all with regards to recruits.

Who cares what stars they had anyway? If a 2 star comes in and makes freshman all america, then all conf as a soph, and all america before he's done....does the low rating matter? Heck no. Kudos to the coaching staff that properly identified a difference maker. Aaron Donald may not have been a 2 but he says "hello."

 

[Sidewalking]

It was a great season. I think 1998 was better but 2014 was still a ton of fun, mostly at the end. The 2 losses after 5-0 start took a bit of momentum out of it for me, as did the loss to FSU.
It's not denigration to point out that we lost 3X that season. Just a fact.

It is odd that you say it was a great season "but".....but two losses mid season....but a close loss to a great FSU team in the ACCCG. Guess it's just a matter of parsing the difference between great or very good? I think by Tech standards both 2014 and 1998 were great seasons. Not as great as 1990 but great.

 

[RickStromFan]

And that is one of the many problems with the "services." Braun shut down his recruiting early. A ton of factories would have taken him if he hadn't and his star rating would have increased rather than decreased. Another problem with services is camp participation. Not every prospect goes to camps to get rated. There are problems with the services whether you wish to acknowledge it or not. They can provide some good info. But they are no end all be all with regards to recruits.

Who cares what stars they had anyway? If a 2 star comes in and makes freshman all america, then all conf as a soph, and all america before he's done....does the low rating matter? Heck no. Kudos to the coaching staff that properly identified a difference maker. Aaron Donald may not have been a 2 but he says "hello."

you're moving the goalposts though. My comment was about attracting elite talent, which the TO did not do. You claimed it did but are now backtracking and saying "who cares" that it doesn't and questioning the recruiting services. That's a point worth discussing in another thread but for now, those services are what's used to measure talent and words like "elite".

 

[Sidewalking]

you're moving the goalposts though. My comment was about attracting elite talent, which the TO did not do. You claimed it did but are now backtracking and saying "who cares" that it doesn't and questioning the recruiting services. That's a point worth discussing in another thread but for now, those services are what's used to measure talent and words like "elite".

No you are conflating two points I made separately. Elite talent did come. Star ratings of an All America really doesn't matter in the end. Would you care if Tech finished at 40 in recruiting every year and won four straight national championships? Would Collins be hailed as a great recruiter or just a mediocre one in that scenario?

 

[RickStromFan]

I think it mostly comes down to personal preference. 1998 saw a loss to a bad BC team and a big loss to FSU, but a win against top 15 UGA and top 20 ND. 2014 had losses to bad Duke and UNC, win over top 10 UGA and close loss to CFP FSU, then big win over top 10 MSU.

I totally agree and freely admit bias here: I had season tix in the late 90s and saw just about every game in 1998, including the fun Bowl win over hated Notre Dame. JoeHam and those WRs are some of my favorite alltime GT football players and really helped us get out of the B**L** doldrums. Plus, it led to the BS failed Heisman candidacy in 1999 and the start of 3 in a row over the mutts after a lengthy drought against those jerks.

I don't have the personal connection with the 2014 team, though enjoyed watching the mutt and OB wins.

 

[RickStromFan]

No you are conflating two points I made separately. Elite talent did come. Star ratings of an All America really doesn't matter in the end. Would you care if Tech finished at 40 in recruiting every year and won four straight national championships? Would Collins be hailed as a great recruiter or just a mediocre one in that scenario?

No, players came that got better but weren't rated "elite" when they got here. Star ratings absolutely matter for the discussion we're having. Plus, pointing out literally 3 guys in 11 years as examples of Elite Talent flooding into the program is actually proving the opposite.

A top-40 finish in recruiting would be the first in quite some time for us. That's about all I expect at this point. Am tired of being in the 50s.