Where the Program stands

[awbuzz]

I think the program is in better shape than 1979-83. I was there during that time and the discussion was to end the athletics program. The facilities were awful (remember the old Navy Armory?), the current Edge had not even been built.

Today, we have the 2020 Initiative and a new Edge underway. Fundraising in general appears ok and we have upgraded many of our coaches (still have one to go). I get the fact that whoever followed CPJ was going to undertake the Greatest Transformation in the History of the Earth, so let's just put an exclamation point there.

Geoff's time will end and a new coach will take over. Butch is gone at UT (Geoff reminds me of Butch a lot) and Heupel has them on a good, steady path. Are we in a bad spot? Yes. Are we as bad as 79-83? Not yet.

+1

 

[Jetdrive3]

This is silly. How many years at Temple (his first head coach gig)? How many years at Tech (His 2nd gig)? 2 and 3 years are insufficient to “build” a program, so your statement has no basis.

There was no logic in your analysis.

 

[forensicbuzz]

There was no logic in your analysis.

My analysis is totally logical. Explain to me how one "builds" a program in 2-3 years. My point is building a program is something that takes more than 2-3 years. In 3 years a coach hardly has any of "his" recruits on the field.

 

[swampsting]

My analysis is totally logical. Explain to me how one "builds" a program in 2-3 years. My point is building a program is something that takes more than 2-3 years. In 3 years a coach hardly has any of "his" recruits on the field.

In three years, they're mostly his recruits. Especially in this day and age.
From PJ's last full class, 2018, there are six (maybe seven) guys remaining. From that 2019 class, of PJ's commits, about four are left.
That's fewer than a dozen out of 80-plus guys on rides.
So ... this is almost entirely Collins' crew now. For good (what little there has been) and bad (beat the dead horse here).

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

In three years, they're mostly his recruits. Especially in this day and age.
From PJ's last full class, 2018, there are six (maybe seven) guys remaining. From that 2019 class, of PJ's commits, about four are left.
That's fewer than a dozen out of 80-plus guys on rides.
So ... this is almost entirely Collins' crew now. For good (what little there has been) and bad (beat the dead horse here).

It's also year 4 now, not year two, which was his premise...

 

[swampsting]

It's also year 4 now, not year two, which was his premise...

He said three years too. And last year - last season - we're all pretty much his guys too, though signings and transfers.
It's been three years. We're going into season four.
And we suck as bad as we've ever sucked.

 

[forensicbuzz]

He said three years too. And last year - last season - we're all pretty much his guys too, though signings and transfers.
It's been three years. We're going into season four.
And we suck as bad as we've ever sucked.

The point is how long it takes to build a program and 3 years is a good start but by no means enough time to have built a program. Don’t lose sight the the overall question because you don’t necessarily agree with one particular point.

 

[CEB]

The point is how long it takes to build a program and 3 years is a good start but by no means enough time to have built a program. Don’t lose sight the the overall question because you don’t necessarily agree with one particular point.

I don’t disagree with your point, but let’s be honest that it didn’t need to be a total build, either. I refuse to believe that there was nothing positive to build upon, yet the decision (either consciously or unconsciously) was made to essentially scrap everything. That set us back more than anyone imagined. And before anyone accuses me of just hating on CGC, I will readily volunteer that he was FAR from alone in that effort.

 

[forensicbuzz]

I don’t disagree. The Covid year made everything more complicated, but I’m definitely disappointed with the progress.

To be honest, nothing that has happened in the last 3 years (Covid, Portal/Immediate Eligibility, NIL) was anticipated in 2019. What might have worked before probably won’t now.

We will never know how that group would have fared if things had continued as expected, but that’s life. Reality is he has to be successful in the environment we’re in today.

This season should be reflective of that. Performance on the field is paramount. No one says otherwise.

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

Forensic, I don’t disagree with that, but every coach in America from middle school to the NFL had to deal with Covid. It was not a lost year and good coaches didn’t lose a year. Good coaches continued to advance their programs. Sure, they had to change their normal path but they did it. As much as I hate to say it look at Kirby. He pushed his program and never let doubt or excuses enter their program. Many others did the same and had very successful seasons in 2020 and 2021. Meanwhile our coach has mentioned the “Covid year” every time he has a microphone. No coach, Covid is not the reason you are a 3 win coach.

 

[forensicbuzz]

Forensic, I don’t disagree with that, but every coach in America from middle school to the NFL had to deal with Covid. It was not a lost year and good coaches didn’t lose a year. Good coaches continued to advance their programs. Sure, they had to change their normal path but they did it. As much as I hate to say it look at Kirby. He pushed his program and never let doubt or excuses enter their program. Many others did the same and had very successful seasons in 2020 and 2021. Meanwhile our coach has mentioned the “Covid year” every time he has a microphone. No coach, Covid is not the reason you are a 3 win coach.

I'm not talking about excuses that were used. Covid was disruptive. Covid changed the way things were done. Some were successful in the transition, some weren't as successful with the transition. Our program was not successful in handling it (for whatever reason; it's really immaterial now) and we saw the results of that. I don't know if CGC can be successful at Tech. He won't be if his approach is as it was. I know many (most on here?) don't think he can. I'm "wait and see" because nothing (barring a total collapse) is going to change until at least December. But, I think we're all in agreement that what was tried didn't work, so they have to do something differently. The first different thing I've seen is a less over-the-top personality since Spring, and that's promising. We'll see.

But that wasn't really my point.

 

[swampsting]

The point is how long it takes to build a program and 3 years is a good start but by no means enough time to have built a program. Don’t lose sight the the overall question because you don’t necessarily agree with one particular point.

I get the point.
Three years is enough time. Especially now, with what is more or less free agency. The roster had virtually turned over since he took over, going into last season.
Time's up. I have grown weary of watching Capt. Queeq skipper a rudderless ship into typhoon after typhoon.

So .. how long should the next guy get to build a program after Collins is shown the door this fall?

 

[Techster]

I get the point.
Three years is enough time. Especially now, with what is more or less free agency. The roster had virtually turned over since he took over, going into last season.
Time's up. I have grown weary of watching Capt. Queeq skipper a rudderless ship into typhoon after typhoon.

So .. how long should the next guy get to build a program after Collins is shown the door this fall?

There's only one coach in the last 3 decade at GT that failed to qualify (win at least 6 games) for a bowl by their 3rd season....Bill Lewis. Even Lewis was able to win 5 games back to back his first two season before the disaster 3rd year. Now it's 2 with CGC. 3 years is more than enough for a coach to recruit and get players to see what he's worth by the 3rd year. I don't think "Covid season" is an excuse because EVERY team went through the Covid year, not just GT. Plus, CGC has the benefit of the transfer portal and immediate eligibility that our previous coaches did not have.

This season will be very telling. Not just for CGC, but for GT as well.

 

[forensicbuzz]

I get the point.
Three years is enough time. Especially now, with what is more or less free agency. The roster had virtually turned over since he took over, going into last season.
Time's up. I have grown weary of watching Capt. Queeq skipper a rudderless ship into typhoon after typhoon.

So .. how long should the next guy get to build a program after Collins is shown the door this fall?

No one builds a team in 3 years. We'll see how this year unfolds. I'm cautiously optimistic, but am in no way tied to this coach or any other coach. I'm looking for intangibles (coaching-related) in addition to wins. Wins alone won't put me behind CGC.

 

[Vespidae]

No one builds a team in 3 years.

Exactly. Which is the problem with most college football teams.

In business, once you decide on a strategy ... it will take 7-10 years to fully implement it. You have recruiting talent, training, aligning sales/marketing/operations, recapitalizing, managing facilities, etc. So a CEO has to do two things ... manage for the short-term AND manage towards a long-term strategy.

If you want short-term thinking, look no further than Al Dunlop, aka "Chainsaw Al". He would use a specific playbook (cut costs, pump the stock) to make millions short-term but almost always left the company worse off.

Looking at a football coach as a program hero is Al Dunlop thinking. "Let's hire a guy and we'll win in 4 years!" Maybe. You'll have a year or two of sub-par results and then, maybe the stars align and you win for a year or two before ... the coach leaves and you start all over again. And most programs do start all over again with every coaching hire. It's like car, careening down the mountain lurching from one guard rail to another.

The most impactful thing Saban has done at Alabama is to professionalize the Athletic Department. It bears no resemblence to the one of 2007. Alabama has set on a strategy and been working it, working it, working it.

My perspective was that the TO and Tech were a good fit ... being fully committed to a scheme gave Tech an advantage and a way to compete. But you have to fully commit to it. We never did. (CPJ did. Tech did not.) Times change and the TO is not coming back. The new strategy is for Tech to be NFL-Lite. Is Geoff the right guy to lead that? Probably not. I do think Chip is going to take over but the best thing that could happen is for Tech to commit to NFL-Lite and work like the devil to make it work. If it doesn't, we go right back to the hero coach model ... which for a school with limited resources, is a budget buster.

 

[iceeater1969]

Exactly. Which is the problem with most college football teams.

In business, once you decide on a strategy ... it will take 7-10 years to fully implement it. You have recruiting talent, training, aligning sales/marketing/operations, recapitalizing, managing facilities, etc. So a CEO has to do two things ... manage for the short-term AND manage towards a long-term strategy.

If you want short-term thinking, look no further than Al Dunlop, aka "Chainsaw Al". He would use a specific playbook (cut costs, pump the stock) to make millions short-term but almost always left the company worse off.

Looking at a football coach as a program hero is Al Dunlop thinking. "Let's hire a guy and we'll win in 4 years!" Maybe. You'll have a year or two of sub-par results and then, maybe the stars align and you win for a year or two before ... the coach leaves and you start all over again. And most programs do start all over again with every coaching hire. It's like car, careening down the mountain lurching from one guard rail to another.

The most impactful thing Saban has done at Alabama is to professionalize the Athletic Department. It bears no resemblence to the one of 2007. Alabama has set on a strategy and been working it, working it, working it.

My perspective was that the TO and Tech were a good fit ... being fully committed to a scheme gave Tech an advantage and a way to compete. But you have to fully commit to it. We never did. (CPJ did. Tech did not.) Times change and the TO is not coming back. The new strategy is for Tech to be NFL-Lite. Is Geoff the right guy to lead that? Probably not. I do think Chip is going to take over but the best thing that could happen is for Tech to commit to NFL-Lite and work like the devil to make it work. If it doesn't, we go right back to the hero coach model ... which for a school with limited resources, is a budget buster.

Good analysis.

I suggest we not go to Hero head coach model . I suggest we start pay ol and dl coaches top $$ in countty. At first its 100% garanteed then that garanteed portion declines while generous performance bonus kicks in. P Bonus to based easily measured results (all conference first team, etc) must be super generous.

Gt cant out hero or organize the big boyz.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

Good analysis.

I suggest we not go to Hero head coach model . I suggest we start pay ol and dl coaches top $$ in countty. At first its 100% garanteed then that garanteed portion declines while generous performance bonus kicks in. P Bonus to based easily measured results (all conference first team, etc) must be super generous.

Gt cant out hero or organize the big boyz.

This would be great if we had the money to do it...

 

[Vespidae]

This would be great if we had the money to do it...

I don't think we have the money to do it. Which means we need a totally different way to think about how we hire and compensate coaches.

IMO, Tech has two options for coaches: 1) Up and comers who are inexpensive (no track record) or 2) Those close to their past due date and are looking to stay in the game for another 2-3 years. Sam Pittman at Arkansas comes to mind.

Regardless, we need innovation here.

 

[85Escape]

I don't think we have the money to do it. Which means we need a totally different way to think about how we hire and compensate coaches.

IMO, Tech has two options for coaches: 1) Up and comers who are inexpensive (no track record) or 2) Those close to their past due date and are looking to stay in the game for another 2-3 years. Sam Pittman at Arkansas comes to mind.

Regardless, we need innovation here.

Yeah, I struggle to understand what our value proposition is with high-end coaches much like I'm struggling to understand what our primary pitch should be to 4+* players. If the coaches (and players, now) are really special we are just a stop along the way to better things.

The only thing that could help us retain the best is to pay the best, both to coaches and players (NIL.)

 

[FlatsLander]

No one builds a team in 3 years. We'll see how this year unfolds. I'm cautiously optimistic, but am in no way tied to this coach or any other coach. I'm looking for intangibles (coaching-related) in addition to wins. Wins alone won't put me behind CGC.

Mack Brown stabilized UNC as soon as he stepped on campus. Bronco Mendenhall had UVA in shape from his second year on. Jamey Chadwell has back to back 11-win seasons after winning 5 his first year.
Not saying it's easy, but there's also no reason for a traditionally bowl-eligible team to bottom out for 3 years straight.