When does Pastner feel heat

Techster

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I don't think it is only about how much money they can put together. From an infrastructure standpoint, GT is not an attractive job for any HC that GT would be interested in.

I think that they will evaluate the program. I think they will have some tough conversations with Pastner. I think that at the end of all of the evaluations and discussions, Pastner will still be the HC next year. Batt needs to fix everything else before he can get a coach that will be better long term to come here. It isn't about whether Pastner "deserves" to be here or not. It is about what is best for GT in the long term.

Is GT an attractive job? It's relative.

Is it attractive to a successful P5 coach? Probably not. Is it attractive to an up and coming coach at the lower levels that will get a nice bump in salary with the opportunity to raise his profile in one of the most prestigious basketball leagues? I would say so...but it will also be determined by which other jobs are open and if a coach we're targeting is also targeted by other schools.

I agree, GT needs to figure out the infrastructure issues, and we need to think long term and not just for Pastner (if he's retained) or his replacement. Both our biggest revenue sports have issues that go beyond paying coaches a good salary for themselves and their staff. If we don't have a solid plan to tackle systemic issues, it will become an endless cycle of repeating mediocre outcomes.
 

RonJohn

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Define what you believe are the UNDERLYING issues if you can
Salary pool is one. The biggest is an NIL program to attract talent and most importantly retain talent.

Salary pool would be the easiest to fix quickly, even though GT doesn't currently have the budget to do so.

NIL would be fairly easy to implement this year, if money can be raised. However, doing it one time isn't going to persuade prospective HCs that GT has a sustainable NIL system in place. What I have been trying to say GT should do is to:
  • Implement an NIL program.
  • Use NIL to keep all of the performers on the team (As part of the process).
  • Use NIL to get a transfer big man (As part of the process).
  • Keep the NIL system active, funded, and visible for the next year
  • Make a decision about Pastner at the end of next year -- After he had one year with NIL support, and the NIL support is in place and visible to prospective replacements.
 

slugboy

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Salary pool is one. The biggest is an NIL program to attract talent and most importantly retain talent.

Salary pool would be the easiest to fix quickly, even though GT doesn't currently have the budget DONORS to do so.

NIL

Minor nitpick. Batt has to line up donors to both increase the budget and get donors to set up NIL programs outside the budget. That’s a lot tougher when we just had one two of the worst seasons we’ve had under any recent coach (and he’s also got two of the other really bad seasons). But, he is trying to do that.
 

Root4GT

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Salary pool is one. The biggest is an NIL program to attract talent and most importantly retain talent.

Salary pool would be the easiest to fix quickly, even though GT doesn't currently have the budget to do so.

NIL would be fairly easy to implement this year, if money can be raised. However, doing it one time isn't going to persuade prospective HCs that GT has a sustainable NIL system in place. What I have been trying to say GT should do is to:
  • Implement an NIL program.
  • Use NIL to keep all of the performers on the team (As part of the process).
  • Use NIL to get a transfer big man (As part of the process).
  • Keep the NIL system active, funded, and visible for the next year
  • Make a decision about Pastner at the end of next year -- After he had one year with NIL support, and the NIL support is in place and visible to prospective replacements.
Basically you are laying all CJPs recruting issues at the feet of NIL. My question is why was CJP's recruting so poor in the 5-6 years before NIL. If it's simply NIL then you can make a change anytime you want as coaches are able to drum up NIL support now. Clearly CJP has not done that to date. If there are other issues you think need to fixed before bringing in a new coach I am curious as to what you think the issues are.
 

RonJohn

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Basically you are laying all CJPs recruting issues at the feet of NIL. My question is why was CJP's recruting so poor in the 5-6 years before NIL. If it's simply NIL then you can make a change anytime you want as coaches are able to drum up NIL support now. Clearly CJP has not done that to date. If there are other issues you think need to fixed before bringing in a new coach I am curious as to what you think the issues are.
You don't understand what I am saying. I am not expressing a desire to keep Pastner. I am expressing a desire to get things fixed in the correct order to achieve long term success. I think there is very large risk that firing him this year will lead to being locked into a contract with a sub part coach for several more years. Keeping him for another year gives GT the opportunity to get things fixed and have the ability to make a good how next year.

If Pastner gets another year and makes the tournament, he probably wouldn't be fired. If he gets another year and isn't successful, GT will be in a much better position to replace him. Firing him this year will lead to having to find a replacement with a subpar infrastructure, which will likely lead to a multi year contract with a sub par coach. What I want is for GT to have a good infrastructure, and good options for a HC. I don't think that firing him this year provides that opportunity.
 

MidtownJacket

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Basically you are laying all CJPs recruting issues at the feet of NIL. My question is why was CJP's recruting so poor in the 5-6 years before NIL. If it's simply NIL then you can make a change anytime you want as coaches are able to drum up NIL support now. Clearly CJP has not done that to date. If there are other issues you think need to fixed before bringing in a new coach I am curious as to what you think the issues are.
You have asked this question of multiple posters across multiple posts. The answer doesn't change. the AD and the Institute instructed CJP to not play dirty with recruiting. To suggest that $$ didn't hold us back from picking up HS Recruits is uninformed at best or more likely just dishonest.

The shift from NIL is that this is more transparent to the public now, and that it offers ways for schools (like us) to dip their toes in to defend our rosters or pick up recruits.
 

slugboy

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Basically you are laying all CJPs recruting issues at the feet of NIL. My question is why was CJP's recruting so poor in the 5-6 years before NIL. If it's simply NIL then you can make a change anytime you want as coaches are able to drum up NIL support now. Clearly CJP has not done that to date. If there are other issues you think need to fixed before bringing in a new coach I am curious as to what you think the issues are.
Money was all over basketball before NIL. Now, it’s out in the open. The amount of money has increased, but there was already a lot of money changing hands.

Now, we have NIL sponsors. In Miami, LifeWallet and other businesses are directly sponsoring athletes.

Before, you had bag men—you know, weird people who weren’t official big donors but hung around in the locker room and quietly gave money to recruits. And for some reason, the basketball program doesn’t have any. I wonder if you can think of a weird person who used to hang out with Pastner and the players and the recruits and doesn’t any more.

Also, you had Nike and Adidas and shoe companies funding recruits—well, Duke and UNC did. We did not.

Anyway, bag men are largely out of favor, and NIL sponsors are in. We talk about fans funding NIL collectives, but NIL sponsors are Body Armor and Gatorade, Bojangles and a local chiropractor, local car dealerships, local law firms and local businesses. It’s Waffle House somebody’s waterproofing business. We didn’t have the shoe companies before, and we don’t have a lot of NIL sponsors now.
 
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LongforDodd

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Money was all over basketball before NIL. Now, it’s out in the open. The amount of money has increased, but there was already a lot of money changing hands.

Now, we have NIL sponsors. In Miami, LifeWallet and other businesses are directly sponsoring athletes.

Before, you had bag men—you know, weird people who weren’t official big donors but hung around in the locker room and quietly gave money to recruits. And for some reason, the basketball program doesn’t have any. I wonder if you can think of a weird person who used to hang out with Pastner and the players and the recruits and doesn’t any more.
You set this up on a tee didn't you, asking about the weird person who used to hang around but no longer does? :)
 

Root4GT

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You have asked this question of multiple posters across multiple posts. The answer doesn't change. the AD and the Institute instructed CJP to not play dirty with recruiting. To suggest that $$ didn't hold us back from picking up HS Recruits is uninformed at best or more likely just dishonest.

The shift from NIL is that this is more transparent to the public now, and that it offers ways for schools (like us) to dip their toes in to defend our rosters or pick up recruits.
So your answer is money will make CJP a good recruiter. Well then it looks like GT will be at best an average ACC team going forward if money is the only answer. The bad part is GT BB was placed on probation under CJP so he clearly didn't follow the AD's mandate not to play dirty.
 

MidtownJacket

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So your answer is money will make CJP a good recruiter. Well then it looks like GT will be at best an average ACC team going forward if money is the only answer. The bad part is GT BB was placed on probation under CJP so he clearly didn't follow the AD's mandate not to play dirty.
My answer is that recruiting a kid to come to GT for $0 is hard when Duke is offering $300K.

If we want that kid, it’s more prudent to try raising $300K for him as opposed to $10M for a new coach (payout CJP + payout new coach school + pay salary for an upgrade) AND $300K for the kid.

I’m being cavalier about the numbers, but generally they’re directionally accurate for a High Caliber 5 and the coaching costs.
 

Connell62

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So your answer is money will make CJP a good recruiter. Well then it looks like GT will be at best an average ACC team going forward if money is the only answer. The bad part is GT BB was placed on probation under CJP so he clearly didn't follow the AD's mandate not to play dirty.
Or you didn't follow the actual events or facts related to what was happening, or why we were placed on probation. No surprise there.

The other answer is that you refuse to admit that Josh has pulled some strong players despite those head winds. Whether it is from high-school or via the portal doesn't matter.

He's done that without bag men or playing dirty. That's why many think that he will be able to land a couple of difference makers if he has money to work with.
 

slugboy

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So your answer is money will make CJP a good recruiter. Well then it looks like GT will be at best an average ACC team going forward if money is the only answer. The bad part is GT BB was placed on probation under CJP so he clearly didn't follow the AD's mandate not to play dirty.
  1. The opinion I’m seeing is “we don’t think he’s the largest problem, we don’t think he’s the solution, either”.
  2. The bad part is a story as old as time, and GT has paid the price heavily over the past 10-15 years: “steal a loaf of bread, go to jail for 20 years” vs “run a huge Ponzi scheme and live in a mansion”. We’ve seen two probations and a vacated championship and a postseason ban for less than $500 total, while hundreds of thousands if not millions are changing hands up and down the interstate.
 

lv20gt

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Pastner has had his issues with recruiting no doubt but they are exaggerated sometimes unintentionally and sometimes disingenuously by ignoring the new realities of transfers being key.

Lets go by his classes.

2017 - Brought in Jose, Moses, Evan Cole and Curtis Haywood. At the time it looked like a solid PG, a solid wing, and two projects. In retrospect it was an ACC PoY, ACC DPoY, an okay depth piece for a couple years. HE also brought in Brandon Alston who gave us a solid depth guard which we needed. Overall this was a great class at identifying hidden talent, the thing a lot of people constantly point to needing.

2018 - Brought in Devoe, Sjolund, Khalid Moore, and James Banks as a two year transfer. At that time Devoe was a highly thought of prospect, Moore a solid wing guy, Sjolund a project, and Banks a high potential player at a position of need that was unproven. As it turned out Devoe was great, Moore was basically what we thought (role wing player), Sjolund a bust, and Banks a great defensive big with okay offensive tools. Also brought in Phillips to provide us with a little PG depth but it didn't really pan out for him here.

Those two years were solid recruiting years. People remember otherwise because our roster was in such a bad situation we were hoping for absolute home run classes. But the classes themselves each brought in two multi year high level performers and another player that was a multi year depth piece.

2019 - Didenko and Price with Usher and Parham as transfers. This was the big swing and miss class, and even at the time it was seen as bad. Neither the recruits gave us anything. But Usher was a huge get who was a 2.5 year contributor and Parham gave us two good years of depth at guard despite not living up to billing that he had at VMI. Bad HS recruiting, but good additions out of the portal.

2020 - Gigiberia, Maxwell, Meka from HS and Howard and Sturdivant out of the portal. At the time Gigiberia committed he was a 4* while Maxwell and Meka were both good prospects (I believe Maxwell was mr basketball in Carolina). Gigi never panned out while Maxwell and Meka both had injuries early and often that hindered them. Wasn't a phenomenal class but it had solid potential pieces. In retrospect the injuries to Maxwell and Meka leave it the most what if class to me. Howard was an okay depth piece, but at the time it seemed the idea was to have him try to help bridge the gap while Gigiberia got experience. However, Gigi didn't develop, and Howard was just missued . I don't really know how much I would chalk those two to bad recruiting vs misuse and a lack of development. Either way it lands on Pastner. Sturdivant was the cream of the crop having already given us two solid years of production, and returning next year having finished the season strong.

2021 - Kelly, Coleman, Moore and bringing in Smith with 4 years of eligibility. Easily Pastner's best class at time of signing. 3 four stars and Moore was borderline iirc. And all four have them have shown potential already each averaging over 7.5 with Coleman and 9.5 and Kelly at 14.4 as a soph.

2022 - Martynov brought in as a reclassify and Bagatskis as a project. Franklin and Terry out of the portal. Weaker recruits from HS, but too early to see if they pan out. After the 2021 class that isn't terribly surprising as early playing time, for anyone that wasn't a big, wasn't likely to be available. Transfer portal targets were straight up successes. 2nd and 3rd leading scorers, and leading rebounder. Ultimately Franklin being a one year player limits how much he helps the program overall, but we needed someone who could contribute down low right away and he gave us that.

2023 - Blue Cain is a great get. As of right now we only have one more opening and should be, and appear to be, saving it for the transfer portal. Some will argue we should be expecting two or three transfers out and go ahead and lock in another recruit or two, but Pastner isn't the type to run off players to get under cap, nor would I want him to be, and it's possible we're planning to go heavier in the portal. One of the new dynamics is it's probably ideal to have some players go spend their first year or two somewhere else and then transfer in. That way you're getting the more productive years without spending the scholarship on the development years. In any case, we'll have to see how it all plays out.


Overall, the two middle years of 19-20 weren't good for different reasons (19 just not good overall, and injuries hurt 20 a good bit) and that is hurting us as we move into the years they would have been upperclassmen. Otherwise, when you're considering both highschool players and transfers, the classes have in general been good enough to be competitive but not spectacular, and not good enough to overcome the 19/20 classes so far. IF Pastner can continue to bring in the type of classes that have 2 or 3 multi year contributors (either starters or even depth pieces) then we should be able to get back to being competitive most years. The caveat to that is he has to figure out his big man use.


The reality is unless we up our NIL game the level of recruiting, regardless of coach, probably won't go that much higher. Maybe switching coaches brings a bit more consistency, or maybe a bit better fit in regards to bigs, but I wouldn't expect classes of four 4*s or any five stars to be the norm without NIL improvement even if we make a great hire. Then the question is would an improved NIL be enough to get Pastner to where he needs to be in terms of recruiting. There's no way to know, but perhaps with a better NIL program we could have convince Jose and/or Moses to come back one more year. Maybe not but we don't know. Maybe with a better NIL program we could have landed a second impact big out of the portal that could have made a difference this year.

Pastner may or may not be the answer long term, with odds are that he isn't. If we fire him I would wager that his replacement, that we would get this year, likely wouldn't be either. What we do know is we need to improve our NIL competitiveness. Do that and maybe Pastner is the guy. If not we're more likely to land a coach who is. So If we have to chose just one, I'd rather fix the NIL deal first then make the coaching change, if needed, rather than forcing the coaching change now without the NIL situation in place that the better names would probably want. Of course it isn't strictly an either or and it's possible a new coach could themselves help the NIL situation, but that's something I would expect the AD to be considering.
 

Root4GT

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Or you didn't follow the actual events or facts related to what was happening, or why we were placed on probation. No surprise there.

The other answer is that you refuse to admit that Josh has pulled some strong players despite those head winds. Whether it is from high-school or via the portal doesn't matter.

He's done that without bag men or playing dirty. That's why many think that he will be able to land a couple of difference makers if he has money to work with.
Was GT placed on probation for actions while CJP was head coach? Yes. Is the Head Coach responsible for the actions of his assistants and players? Again yes.

CJP has signed DeVoe, Coleman, Kelly and Cain as high level recruits in his time as HC. About one every other year while missing out badly about every other year. His ACC record reflects the talent level he has brought into the program. To me lack of talent seems to have been the predominant issue in hi poor win/loss record.

Coaching matters. Getting ACC level talent matters as much or more than coaching.

Are there factors that have made recruting hard for CJP - sure. Has he been able to change anything at GT that has made recruting difficult? It does not appear to be the case. You may have more insight as to how CJP has addressed/changed the problems that seem to be holding his recruting back. If you do have such insights please share them as there is no public information that shows anything has changed to make recruting better/easier in his 7 years.

One can blame the school or AD but at some point if it isn't working the coach needs to step up and force changes or accept the inevitable fate that awaits. CJP seems like a really good guy who is a true Company man. From the outside that seems to have hurt him as the Head Basketball Coach.
 

Northeast Stinger

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You don't understand what I am saying. I am not expressing a desire to keep Pastner. I am expressing a desire to get things fixed in the correct order to achieve long term success. I think there is very large risk that firing him this year will lead to being locked into a contract with a sub part coach for several more years. Keeping him for another year gives GT the opportunity to get things fixed and have the ability to make a good how next year.

If Pastner gets another year and makes the tournament, he probably wouldn't be fired. If he gets another year and isn't successful, GT will be in a much better position to replace him. Firing him this year will lead to having to find a replacement with a subpar infrastructure, which will likely lead to a multi year contract with a sub par coach. What I want is for GT to have a good infrastructure, and good options for a HC. I don't think that firing him this year provides that opportunity.
And…perhaps to put too fine a point on it, if Pastner could be fired, a nationally recognized basketball guru get hired, and a robust NIL be put in place all by this year, then by all means do it.

But you are describing the most realistic scenario.
 

57jacket

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Pastner has had his issues with recruiting no doubt but they are exaggerated sometimes unintentionally and sometimes disingenuously by ignoring the new realities of transfers being key.

Lets go by his classes.

2017 - Brought in Jose, Moses, Evan Cole and Curtis Haywood. At the time it looked like a solid PG, a solid wing, and two projects. In retrospect it was an ACC PoY, ACC DPoY, an okay depth piece for a couple years. HE also brought in Brandon Alston who gave us a solid depth guard which we needed. Overall this was a great class at identifying hidden talent, the thing a lot of people constantly point to needing.

2018 - Brought in Devoe, Sjolund, Khalid Moore, and James Banks as a two year transfer. At that time Devoe was a highly thought of prospect, Moore a solid wing guy, Sjolund a project, and Banks a high potential player at a position of need that was unproven. As it turned out Devoe was great, Moore was basically what we thought (role wing player), Sjolund a bust, and Banks a great defensive big with okay offensive tools. Also brought in Phillips to provide us with a little PG depth but it didn't really pan out for him here.

Those two years were solid recruiting years. People remember otherwise because our roster was in such a bad situation we were hoping for absolute home run classes. But the classes themselves each brought in two multi year high level performers and another player that was a multi year depth piece.

2019 - Didenko and Price with Usher and Parham as transfers. This was the big swing and miss class, and even at the time it was seen as bad. Neither the recruits gave us anything. But Usher was a huge get who was a 2.5 year contributor and Parham gave us two good years of depth at guard despite not living up to billing that he had at VMI. Bad HS recruiting, but good additions out of the portal.

2020 - Gigiberia, Maxwell, Meka from HS and Howard and Sturdivant out of the portal. At the time Gigiberia committed he was a 4* while Maxwell and Meka were both good prospects (I believe Maxwell was mr basketball in Carolina). Gigi never panned out while Maxwell and Meka both had injuries early and often that hindered them. Wasn't a phenomenal class but it had solid potential pieces. In retrospect the injuries to Maxwell and Meka leave it the most what if class to me. Howard was an okay depth piece, but at the time it seemed the idea was to have him try to help bridge the gap while Gigiberia got experience. However, Gigi didn't develop, and Howard was just missued . I don't really know how much I would chalk those two to bad recruiting vs misuse and a lack of development. Either way it lands on Pastner. Sturdivant was the cream of the crop having already given us two solid years of production, and returning next year having finished the season strong.

2021 - Kelly, Coleman, Moore and bringing in Smith with 4 years of eligibility. Easily Pastner's best class at time of signing. 3 four stars and Moore was borderline iirc. And all four have them have shown potential already each averaging over 7.5 with Coleman and 9.5 and Kelly at 14.4 as a soph.

2022 - Martynov brought in as a reclassify and Bagatskis as a project. Franklin and Terry out of the portal. Weaker recruits from HS, but too early to see if they pan out. After the 2021 class that isn't terribly surprising as early playing time, for anyone that wasn't a big, wasn't likely to be available. Transfer portal targets were straight up successes. 2nd and 3rd leading scorers, and leading rebounder. Ultimately Franklin being a one year player limits how much he helps the program overall, but we needed someone who could contribute down low right away and he gave us that.

2023 - Blue Cain is a great get. As of right now we only have one more opening and should be, and appear to be, saving it for the transfer portal. Some will argue we should be expecting two or three transfers out and go ahead and lock in another recruit or two, but Pastner isn't the type to run off players to get under cap, nor would I want him to be, and it's possible we're planning to go heavier in the portal. One of the new dynamics is it's probably ideal to have some players go spend their first year or two somewhere else and then transfer in. That way you're getting the more productive years without spending the scholarship on the development years. In any case, we'll have to see how it all plays out.


Overall, the two middle years of 19-20 weren't good for different reasons (19 just not good overall, and injuries hurt 20 a good bit) and that is hurting us as we move into the years they would have been upperclassmen. Otherwise, when you're considering both highschool players and transfers, the classes have in general been good enough to be competitive but not spectacular, and not good enough to overcome the 19/20 classes so far. IF Pastner can continue to bring in the type of classes that have 2 or 3 multi year contributors (either starters or even depth pieces) then we should be able to get back to being competitive most years. The caveat to that is he has to figure out his big man use.


The reality is unless we up our NIL game the level of recruiting, regardless of coach, probably won't go that much higher. Maybe switching coaches brings a bit more consistency, or maybe a bit better fit in regards to bigs, but I wouldn't expect classes of four 4*s or any five stars to be the norm without NIL improvement even if we make a great hire. Then the question is would an improved NIL be enough to get Pastner to where he needs to be in terms of recruiting. There's no way to know, but perhaps with a better NIL program we could have convince Jose and/or Moses to come back one more year. Maybe not but we don't know. Maybe with a better NIL program we could have landed a second impact big out of the portal that could have made a difference this year.

Pastner may or may not be the answer long term, with odds are that he isn't. If we fire him I would wager that his replacement, that we would get this year, likely wouldn't be either. What we do know is we need to improve our NIL competitiveness. Do that and maybe Pastner is the guy. If not we're more likely to land a coach who is. So If we have to chose just one, I'd rather fix the NIL deal first then make the coaching change, if needed, rather than forcing the coaching change now without the NIL situation in place that the better names would probably want. Of course it isn't strictly an either or and it's possible a new coach could themselves help the NIL situation, but that's something I would expect the AD to be considering.
Excellent post lvgt.. I would only add 1) the assistant issue. Is his loyalty to these hampering our recruiting ? 2) his stubborn refusal to abandon the princeton offense, and 3) his consistently poor early season success.
 
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