When does Pastner feel heat

[AUFC]

*or at least an offense tailored to their strengths that isn’t dependent on a really talented center who can score in multiple ways.

 

[forensicbuzz]

A good post shooter will shoot about 65%. A good perimeter shooter will shoot about 50% from the field and 45% from the 3 point line. Howard is the only player meeting those standards. I realize a good shooter can go through a slump that my last several games. An entire team does not have a season-long shooting slump. We don't have any good shooters.

Those numbers are not representative of a "good" perimeter shooter. 45% from 3pt is Top30 in NCAA. 50% from the field is Top 36 in the NCAA. 65% shooting makes you Top15 in NCAA. That's a little more than "good."

Source: Stats

 

[slugboy]

Those numbers are not representative of a "good" perimeter shooter. 45% from 3pt is Top30 in NCAA. 50% from the field is Top 36 in the NCAA. 65% shooting makes you Top15 in NCAA. That's a little more than "good."

Source: Stats

On the way to say the same thing. Also, there are 358 D1 basketball teams, with 5 starters. That’s the top 30 out of 1790 players. That’s the top 1.7% shooters just out of the starters—it’s rarified air. {There are 16 players on D1 teams, which equals 5728 D1 players (possible), which means the top 30 are 1 out of about 200 players each.}

There’s also the difference in how you get to be that shooter—it’s a lot easier to be that great shooter when your team employs tactics to get you clean shots (wayback machine: https://grantland.com/the-triangle/kyle-korver-3-point-atlanta-hawks-mike-budenholzer/)

We’re running more of a system now under Princeton than we were under the dribble drive (do you guys remember us running that?). It should get us more open looks than what we were doing before.

Oh, the stats: https://www.ncaa.com/stats/basketball-men/d1/current/individual/143

 

[Steverc]

On the way to say the same thing. Also, there are 358 D1 basketball teams, with 5 starters. That’s the top 30 out of 1790 players. That’s the top 1.7% shooters just out of the starters—it’s rarified air. {There are 16 players on D1 teams, which equals 5728 D1 players (possible), which means the top 30 are 1 out of about 200 players each.}

There’s also the difference in how you get to be that shooter—it’s a lot easier to be that great shooter when your team employs tactics to get you clean shots (wayback machine: https://grantland.com/the-triangle/kyle-korver-3-point-atlanta-hawks-mike-budenholzer/)

We’re running more of a system now under Princeton than we were under the dribble drive (do you guys remember us running that?). It should get us more open looks than what we were doing before.

Oh, the stats: https://www.ncaa.com/stats/basketball-men/d1/current/individual/143

If you want to get to the NBA, you have to be a good shooter. The numbers you quote won't cut it.

 

[slugboy]

If you want to get to the NBA, you have to be a good shooter. The numbers you quote won't cut it.

There are 58 picks in the NBA draft every year.

However, for most of us, “NBA worthy/entering the draft this season” vs “good NCAA shooter” are not the same thing.

I would love players ready for the NBA every season. Coaches can build a really good team with 40% shooters or thereabouts, though.

 

[4shotB]

The point I think most of us are making is that if we can manufacture better looks, we have multiple players capable of shooting that 40%+ 3pt shot and making open looks consistently. I can prove that to you based on the looks Mike Devoe and Jordan Usher were able to generate for them last year.

The Sophs are 3 pieces of a future NCAAT team but they need a really good PG and a really good C.

Thanks for the response. It drives at what I was asking (if I watched i would already know the answers to my questions so I appreciate your patience with a curious but uninformed poster). Not putting words in your mouth but I understand you as saying the root issue is our system is not designed for our current roster of players and their skill sets. As a result, they don't get many clean looks, which results in a lower shooting % than what you would expect from them. Am I understanding and reading this correctly?

 

[alagold]

I loved Tech basketball back in the Cremins days. That man could recruit! It hasn't been the same since and starting to believe it never will. I hope Im wrong. Josh is a good guy but below average coach and recruiter. The offense we run is hideous, and it seems like every guy we bring in from the portal that's supposed to be a big time 3 point shooter turns out to be a total bust. Im over it. Time to move on.

Actually Hewitt recruited really well. He even still has at least one player still in the NBA. He got top 50 guys a lot--just couldn't coach them at a certain point.

 

[daddee724]

Thanks for the response. It drives at what I was asking (if I watched i would already know the answers to my questions so I appreciate your patience with a curious but uninformed poster). Not putting words in your mouth but I understand you as saying the root issue is our system is not designed for our current roster of players and their skill sets. As a result, they don't get many clean looks, which results in a lower shooting % than what you would expect from them. Am I understanding and reading this correctly?

Yep been saying that since last season, Coach JP has been too stubborn or unaware of the issue, but yet everyone in the forum recognizes it

 

[LargeFO]

Yep been saying that since last season, Coach JP has been too stubborn or unaware of the issue, but yet everyone in the forum recognizes it

Yea Rodney Howard is not Ben Lammers but some coaches are just super hard-headed.

 

[JoJaTeck]

Pastner showed what he can accomplish two years ago. That team was very good at the end of the year, and if Moses plays in the NCAA I don’t see any way we are eliminated in the first round. The issue is that we’ve had no plan for what to do when key players leave the system. Jose and Moses depart and we decide to pin our entire team to Devoe, who quite frankly wasn’t the type of player to shoulder that sort of a load. Then Devoe and Usher leave and we are left with a bunch of guys that have barely played.

In short, he doesn’t seem to have much of a long term vision…or at least doesn’t show an ability to execute on whatever vision he has. Im still baffled that we are left without a serviceable 5 this year. Rodney simply hasn’t panned out like they expected, but I’m not sure many had high hopes that he would.

We are in a pretty bad spot right now, but it’s nothing that a single transfer into the program couldn’t solve in the short term. The issue is, can we rely on that strategy consistently?

 

[Peacone36]

And the Tooth Fairy is real. List his top 100 recruits

Blue Cain 2023 #97
Deebo Coleman 2021 #67
Miles Kelly 2021 #103

 

[Connell62]

A good post shooter will shoot about 65%. A good perimeter shooter will shoot about 50% from the field and 45% from the 3 point line. Howard is the only player meeting those standards. I realize a good shooter can go through a slump that my last several games. An entire team does not have a season-long shooting slump. We don't have any good shooters.

LOL...I realize that you have an angle behind the point you are trying to make, but as usual, you are living in fantasy land.

Steph Curry, who most agree is the best "shooter" in the history of basketball, has a career FG % of 47.4% and career 3PT % of 42.8%

I think that you're a little off in your assessment of what a "good" shooter might be.

 

[Steverc]

Steph Curry is an excellent shooter, but he is a volume shooter. He is barely in the top 10 this season. His brother is actually a more efficient shooter.

 

[Root4GT]

Blue Cain 2023 #97
Deebo Coleman 2021 #67
Miles Kelly 2021 #103

Three in 7 years. That is the reason we struggle. We simply have too many holes in the roster. If you are satisfied with less than one every other year you will get the results we consistently see on the court.

 

[AUFC]

Three in 7 years. That is the reason we struggle. We simply have too many holes in the roster. If you are satisfied with less than one every other year you will get the results we consistently see on the court.

What if you replace Pastner with someone who can’t pull Top 100 guys but also doesn’t turn 3*s into pros? That’s a very real possibility unless you start contributing 6 figure NIL numbers.

I like Pastner and want to give him one more season before I make a decision on his future because I think we maybe have a tournament run in us next season. We should be realistic about the ceiling of the program on a year to year basis though. Best case right now is that we string together a couple good years, reenergize McCamish, and some benefactor decides to hand out bags.

 

[slugboy]

I'm not sure the original question sheds much useful light.

Question 1: Is Pastner feeling some heat? Every year a P6 coach doesn't go to the NCAA Tournament, they're feeling heat. Even at this P6 school.

• Is he getting fired this season? I would be stunned.
• Could he be fired next year? Highly doubtful. You have a brand new AD, you just turned over half your football coaches and have a new (promoted) head coach, the AD needs to reorganize the AA and find new sources of revenue and funding, we have some good players just starting now
• There are less extreme options available than firing the HC
• Who is funding a new coach? The point of this isn’t to kvetch about our AA’s finances—it’s more to say that if you’re getting a big name coaching staff, you’re going to have a crew of big money boosters that know who they want and argue for that person. I’m hard-pressed to name who those people are. We don’t seem to have those people in the program right now. If you had some big $$$$ boosters who wanted a new coach and were funding it, then yeah I can see it. We had a chance to see this during/after Hewitt when the program was loaded with players. If there’s an easy extra million or more to add to the program, it’s been invisible for that last 10+ years.
• In short, I don’t see any of the gears in motion for anything to happen next season, much less this one.

Question 2:

Three in 7 years. That is the reason we struggle. We simply have too many holes in the roster. If you are satisfied with less than one every other year you will get the results we consistently see on the court.

2023: Blue Cain (#97)
2022: Freds Bagatskis, Cyril Martynov, Franklin and Terry (transfers). Cyril is unrated and probably really underrated.
2021: Dallan Coleman (#67), Miles Kelly (#125), Jalon Moore (#214), Deivon Smith (transfer). Top 100 player and Deivon is a great transfer. This is a really good class.
2020: Saba Gigiberia (#209), Jordan Meka (#248), Tristan Maxwell (#351). Howard and Sturdivant were 3* transfers. Saba’s biggest issue is that he didn’t fit how we were playing and didn’t want to. Meka hasn’t broken through.
those years are our current team.
2021, 2022, and 2023 look like a really good trend. 2022 is probably underrated. What we need are good 4’s and 5’s. We’re setting up a really good backcourt, though.

since you were talking about 7 years
2019: Didenko, Price, and Boyd. Parham and Usher as transfers. Usher was a great transfer.
2018: Devoe (#51), Sjolund (#208), Moore (#214), James Banks (4* transfer). Really happy with Devoe and Banks. Wish we’d had Banks for longer.

The last 4-5 years look like they’re going in the right direction, but we need to do better in finding centers and PF players that fit how we play. Between NIL and improving recruiting a notch or too, you could see a really good team.

 

[Root4GT]

What if you replace Pastner with someone who can’t pull Top 100 guys but also doesn’t turn 3*s into pros? That’s a very real possibility unless you start contributing 6 figure NIL numbers.

I like Pastner and want to give him one more season before I make a decision on his future because I think we maybe have a tournament run in us next season. We should be realistic about the ceiling of the program on a year to year basis though. Best case right now is that we string together a couple good years, reenergize McCamish, and some benefactor decides to hand out bags.

How many years is enough to know what you have? Seven is plenty for me. I don’t see how next year is better without getting high end center and OG from the portal. We have gotten solid players from the portal but no one that could make this group competitive in the upper 1/3 of the ACC.

 

[Root4GT]

I'm not sure the original question sheds much useful light.

Question 1: Is Pastner feeling some heat? Every year a P6 coach doesn't go to the NCAA Tournament, they're feeling heat. Even at this P6 school.

• Is he getting fired this season? I would be stunned.
• Could he be fired next year? Highly doubtful. You have a brand new AD, you just turned over half your football coaches and have a new (promoted) head coach, the AD needs to reorganize the AA and find new sources of revenue and funding, we have some good players just starting now
• There are less extreme options available than firing the HC
• Who is funding a new coach? The point of this isn’t to kvetch about our AA’s finances—it’s more to say that if you’re getting a big name coaching staff, you’re going to have a crew of big money boosters that know who they want and argue for that person. I’m hard-pressed to name who those people are. We don’t seem to have those people in the program right now. If you had some big $$$$ boosters who wanted a new coach and were funding it, then yeah I can see it. We had a chance to see this during/after Hewitt when the program was loaded with players. If there’s an easy extra million or more to add to the program, it’s been invisible for that last 10+ years.
• In short, I don’t see any of the gears in motion for anything to happen next season, much less this one.

Question 2:



2023: Blue Cain (#97)
2022: Freds Bagatskis, Cyril Martynov, Franklin and Terry (transfers). Cyril is unrated and probably really underrated.
2021: Dallan Coleman (#67), Miles Kelly (#125), Jalon Moore (#214), Deivon Smith (transfer). Top 100 player and Deivon is a great transfer. This is a really good class.
2020: Saba Gigiberia (#209), Jordan Meka (#248), Tristan Maxwell (#351). Howard and Sturdivant were 3* transfers. Saba’s biggest issue is that he didn’t fit how we were playing and didn’t want to. Meka hasn’t broken through.
those years are our current team.
2021, 2022, and 2023 look like a really good trend. 2022 is probably underrated. What we need are good 4’s and 5’s. We’re setting up a really good backcourt, though.

since you were talking about 7 years
2019: Didenko, Price, and Boyd. Parham and Usher as transfers. Usher was a great transfer.
2018: Devoe (#51), Sjolund (#208), Moore (#214), James Banks (4* transfer). Really happy with Devoe and Banks. Wish we’d had Banks for longer.

The last 4-5 years look like they’re going in the right direction, but we need to do better in finding centers and PF players that fit how we play. Between NIL and improving recruiting a notch or too, you could see a really good team.

Out of your group only Coleman and Kelly weren’t projects that needed a couple of years to develop. Smith is a great athlete but a below average OG and he can’t shoot well enough to play any other position.

Moore appears he will become a good ACC Player. Cyril looks no where close to being ready for ACC play in his limited minutes.

In my opinion you vastly overate our talent. The on court results support my position unless you concede CJP is a bad coach using talented players.

 

[Connell62]

I'm not sure the original question sheds much useful light.

Question 1: Is Pastner feeling some heat? Every year a P6 coach doesn't go to the NCAA Tournament, they're feeling heat. Even at this P6 school.

• Is he getting fired this season? I would be stunned.
• Could he be fired next year? Highly doubtful. You have a brand new AD, you just turned over half your football coaches and have a new (promoted) head coach, the AD needs to reorganize the AA and find new sources of revenue and funding, we have some good players just starting now
• There are less extreme options available than firing the HC
• Who is funding a new coach? The point of this isn’t to kvetch about our AA’s finances—it’s more to say that if you’re getting a big name coaching staff, you’re going to have a crew of big money boosters that know who they want and argue for that person. I’m hard-pressed to name who those people are. We don’t seem to have those people in the program right now. If you had some big $$$$ boosters who wanted a new coach and were funding it, then yeah I can see it. We had a chance to see this during/after Hewitt when the program was loaded with players. If there’s an easy extra million or more to add to the program, it’s been invisible for that last 10+ years.
• In short, I don’t see any of the gears in motion for anything to happen next season, much less this one.

Question 2:



2023: Blue Cain (#97)
2022: Freds Bagatskis, Cyril Martynov, Franklin and Terry (transfers). Cyril is unrated and probably really underrated.
2021: Dallan Coleman (#67), Miles Kelly (#125), Jalon Moore (#214), Deivon Smith (transfer). Top 100 player and Deivon is a great transfer. This is a really good class.
2020: Saba Gigiberia (#209), Jordan Meka (#248), Tristan Maxwell (#351). Howard and Sturdivant were 3* transfers. Saba’s biggest issue is that he didn’t fit how we were playing and didn’t want to. Meka hasn’t broken through.
those years are our current team.
2021, 2022, and 2023 look like a really good trend. 2022 is probably underrated. What we need are good 4’s and 5’s. We’re setting up a really good backcourt, though.

since you were talking about 7 years
2019: Didenko, Price, and Boyd. Parham and Usher as transfers. Usher was a great transfer.
2018: Devoe (#51), Sjolund (#208), Moore (#214), James Banks (4* transfer). Really happy with Devoe and Banks. Wish we’d had Banks for longer.

The last 4-5 years look like they’re going in the right direction, but we need to do better in finding centers and PF players that fit how we play. Between NIL and improving recruiting a notch or too, you could see a really good team.

This very topic has been rehashed so many times, yet no one pays attention. To move the needle the way many here want, you need somewhere in the range of $30-$35 million.

We’re so far away from that it’s absurd. We can’t even afford social media managers. Josh is far from perfect, but give him better resources, and I’m confident things would look considerably different.

Would they be enough to satisfy the blood thirsty savages known as GT fans? Likely not!

 

[slugboy]

Out of your group only Coleman and Kelly weren’t projects that needed a couple of years to develop. Smith is a great athlete but a below average OG and he can’t shoot well enough to play any other position.

Moore appears he will become a good ACC Player. Cyril looks no where close to being ready for ACC play in his limited minutes.

In my opinion you vastly overate our talent. The on court results support my position unless you concede CJP is a bad coach using talented players.

I didn’t overrate our players. I didn’t even rate them. I did show our last 7 recruiting classes and the associated player ratings.

One poster said Swartz is a decent recruiter. You mocked him and then he proved his case with three really good recruits in three years. You twisted that to say that he had only three in 7 seasons, so I pulled 7 years of recruiting records. If your claim had been true, I’d have shown that, and I’ve done that for a lot of other posters. Your claim wasn’t justified.

Now you say that I have to choose between the idea that Pastner either can’t develop players (he has, and we’ve seen him do it) or that he’s a terrible recruiter. That’s a false and arbitrary choice, and it’s a smokescreen. Pastner has definitely had some misses and given out some scholarships that he shouldn’t have, but he’s shown an ability to get good players. There are a lot more than two choices here—one is that we don’t have the player funding that a Louisville or Indiana or FSU has.

Would someone like Bruce Pearl do better? Maybe, but he depends on the funding that we don’t have. So do most of the other coaches who are doing better than we are right now. In this case, I’m using Bruce Pearl as an example because he recruits very well and your argument is about our recruiting—what teams with high-level recruiting have our lack of NIL funding? Who has worked around that?

Would Pastner do better with the funding we don’t have? Who knows, but we’ve never seen him have it.

Are there smart, basketball-savvy fans who would like another coach? Yeah, and they’ve mentioned the coaches they like.

Do I think Pastner is an ideal coach or one of the best in the game right now? No, but he’s also handicapped by a number of factors, and there aren’t many coaches who would coach here under the handicaps he has. He is a decent coach who should be better with the right support around him. If we fire Pastner and leave the obstacles in place, we’ll be in about the same situation.

Would I like to see Pastner with a stronger offensive game plan? Yeah, I’ve been obvious about that.

You came into this thread and made claims you couldn’t back up. You got called on it. They backed up their claims—you didn’t.