Wake Forest - ACC Weekend #4

MWBATL

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,766
Nuke, I think it is a 4 legged stool, not 3.
You have to have a healthy, quality, quantity, and reliable bull pen.
All 4 are needed.
Well stated and (from this one fan's perspective) spot on. Bullpens throw 1/3 of the innings in any given game (sometimes more). It is what worries me the most about this year's edition of the Yellow Jackets, as we really haven't seen a reliable group out of the 'pen as yet.
 

Buzzbomb

Mello Yellow-Jacket
Messages
8,029
Nuke, I think it is a 4 legged stool, not 3.
You have to have a healthy, quality, quantity, and reliable bull pen.
All 4 are needed.
I do agree with you, if you aren’t rolling the starters and ‘pen together, as “pitching.”

Hope that you will explain why Archer should not be moved to the closer role?
That astounded me on here yesterday morning.

Could you ever see your son closing, since he has the velocity and apparently the mental makeup?

Thank you for all of your posts and insight as a “true” baseball guy(we do have some others on this site, who are too).
 

eokerholm

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
705
I do agree with you, if you aren’t rolling the starters and ‘pen together, as “pitching.”

Hope that you will explain why Archer should not be moved to the closer role?
That astounded me on here yesterday morning.

Could you ever see your son closing, since he has the velocity and apparently the mental makeup?

Thank you for all of your posts and insight as a “true” baseball guy(we do have some others on this site, who are too).
I do think you earn your starting position from being a closer, right? Look at Crawford. Look at Siegel, Dalton, Finnley, Brown and King?

I also think you have to separate the Bull pen into the 4th leg as they're independent from the starter group.

Christian does indeed prefer to be a starter, (as does Logan) but if duty calls, can come in and shut it down, but C has command and pitching package (that continues to get better) to go with the confidence of throwing 4 pitches FOR STRIKES. Logan is confident and can throw gas - FOR STRIKES. They played together all summer and were consistent ALL summer.

Carter Daniels will cause some swing and misses, like Maxwell does, throws GAS, but like Maxwell, can cause intestinal distress for those of us in the stands or dugout.
Didn't go as deep as Christian or Logan did in tournaments. Hence the large number of IP for each last summer.
(I do have the pitching breakdown of each of the 21s if interested, based solely on PG stats and events).
I might have posted it here.
The stats are available to subscribers....

I do think you will see the new freshman guys next year working for and earning time - be it mid-week or weekend.
Aeden/Logan/Christian can come in a dice guys up, time and time again, on the biggest stages at PG.
I think they'll get some innings. I think Daniels will get some closing time.

I don't know enough about the other '21 guys or haven't seen them in action enough to comment.
 

eokerholm

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
705
as usual, I oversimplified things. I also got to thinking about this aspect (and it too may be wrong). In travel ball, the kids weren't all that interested in team wins and losses, mostly in individual performances. In college, there is now additional pressure that comes from playing where W's and L's mean something and you really don't want to let teammates or coaches down. That can tighten the nerves a bit.
I think this honestly depends on what team you're on or organization you're on.
East Cobb Astros was the top team and they all got along and fought for each other. If someone had to bunt to move a batter or sacrifice fly, they would. If they had to take while someone stole, they would. Harry Ford and Jo Mack would trade games and support each other. I think that team was special and everyone was everyone's biggest fan.

Other organizations, I can not say have that mentality and that is why we did play for them. I won't name names. Some people complain about playing the game vs show.
Parents will tell you they feel guilty hoping their son does well, if the team struggled or whatever. But if you don't win, you don't advance and you won't win if everyone plays for themselves.

Your results and observations may vary. But that it why we are so happy with and loyal to the East Cobb organization, coaching and team mentality and drive. Great group of young men and it was great for Christian to hang with future team mates and other college and pro bound players last and will be this summer in ATL.
 

GTJackets

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
598
Location
Moncks Corner, South Carolina
I think this honestly depends on what team you're on or organization you're on.
East Cobb Astros was the top team and they all got along and fought for each other. If someone had to bunt to move a batter or sacrifice fly, they would. If they had to take while someone stole, they would. Harry Ford and Jo Mack would trade games and support each other. I think that team was special and everyone was everyone's biggest fan.

Other organizations, I can not say have that mentality and that is why we did play for them. I won't name names. Some people complain about playing the game vs show.
Parents will tell you they feel guilty hoping their son does well, if the team struggled or whatever. But if you don't win, you don't advance and you won't win if everyone plays for themselves.

Your results and observations may vary. But that it why we are so happy with and loyal to the East Cobb organization, coaching and team mentality and drive. Great group of young men and it was great for Christian to hang with future team mates and other college and pro bound players last and will be this summer in ATL.
Played HS ball with a guy named Crandall Stamps. His boy, Ethan, played with EC this year (I think for the last couple). Believe he's going to Lipscomb. Seems to be a top-notch program from what I've heard.
 

GTNavyNuke

Helluva Engineer
Featured Member
Messages
7,776
Location
Poquoson Virginia
Nuke, I think it is a 4 legged stool, not 3.
You have to have a healthy, quality, quantity, and reliable bull pen.
All 4 are needed.

LOL, hopefully the bullpen is pitching too. Recognize that we may be a little weak in that area so it's not always pitching but throwing :) So when I said pitching, I meant starting and relieving and closing. But I won't make it a five legged stool since more than 3 and they rock (tic) Just giving you a hard time in fun.

I think we need middle relievers also to eat up some innings and hold down the score. What I expect to see more of against the better teams we play is longer AB counts which limit the number of innings a starter can pitch. It's what we do pretty well. Downside is that it is making the games regularly go ~3:30. That is just a long time.
 

FredJacket

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,209
Location
Fredericksburg, Virginia
This team has real potential, but need all three legs (pitching, defense and hitting) to win against good teams.

Nuke, I think it is a 4 legged stool, not 3.
You have to have a healthy, quality, quantity, and reliable bull pen.
All 4 are needed.
Is there a coaching leg?

I noticed during and after Sat's win there was plenty of criticism regarding coach decisions... which is a little hard to understand when we got a W. ...just because we get uncomfortable in close games doesn't mean a different coaching decision would have alleviated it or (more importantly in this case) created a different outcome. Perhaps screaming "at" the coach makes us feel better?

Then on Sunday... coach brings in a guy who works 3 scoreless innings for W. Nobody mentioned coaching (decisions) after that W... & there were some (decisions). In fact, there are many decisions before & during every game. Ga Tech wins a lot of games... does coaching have anything to do with that? It does... along with execution in all phases.
 

GTNavyNuke

Helluva Engineer
Featured Member
Messages
7,776
Location
Poquoson Virginia
Is there a coaching leg?

I noticed during and after Sat's win there was plenty of criticism regarding coach decisions... which is a little hard to understand when we got a W. ...just because we get uncomfortable in close games doesn't mean a different coaching decision would have alleviated it or (more importantly in this case) created a different outcome. Perhaps screaming "at" the coach makes us feel better?

Then on Sunday... coach brings in a guy who works 3 scoreless innings for W. Nobody mentioned coaching (decisions) after that W... & there were some (decisions). In fact, there are many decisions before & during every game. Ga Tech wins a lot of games... does coaching have anything to do with that? It does... along with execution in all phases.

OMG, I confess to a gross conceptual error (GCE). There are four legs. Coaching is very important in deciding who to play and when.

The coaches do best when no one has to talk about their shortcomings.
 

Squints

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,042
If you insist on bringing in a "closer" in close games in the 9th no matter how well the other pitchers are doing, you need someone who isn't going to blow the game. In that case,give me someone will reliably throw strikes (e.g., Archer).

This isn't exclusive to a closer. I also want starting pitchers that are going to throw strikes and not blow the game. Really this applies anyone you put on the mound.

Maxwell has great stuff, but as a starter he can work on things better (and we can recover from a poor outing better) than as a closer.

I'm sorry but this is bonkers. The kid has got a ~8.22 BB/9IP and his control comes and goes like the wind. You put someone like that in your starting rotation and you are asking to be down 6 before the 4th inning and/or have to blow up your entire bullpen plan for the weekend just to finish the game. If you think his control's bad now imagine what it would be like when he's thrown 70+ pitches and hitters get to see him for a third time. While he's "working on things better" we'd have taken a strength and made it a weakness which has the potential to make the improved closer moot because you've decreased the chances we'll even be in position to use the closer as designed (holding a lead rather than stopping the bleeding). The lack of midweek games also hurts because he'd be 'working on things' against conference foes rather than G5 teams. Bottom line, I think if he had the control/command to consistently turn over a line up and throw more than a couple innings at a time he'd be in the weekend rotation already.

Arguably, the way Hall has been using the closer role, that guy pitches every Friday and Sunday (unless the game is out of reach) and maybe even in the midweek game if called for, while the starter pitches only once per week. Ergo, closer has chance to have much more impact.

Looking at the number of games pitched is a too simplistic way to look at it. A starting pitcher throws more innings, more pitches, and faces more batters than a closer will. A closer's 'impact' is dependent on the performance of the offense and the pitchers that preceded him which is absolutely not the case for a starter. By this logic the Dodgers should consider moving Clayton Kershaw or Walker Buehler to the bullpen, or the Yankees doing the same with Gerrit Cole, because they'll have more of an impact throwing in 70 games than they would in 32. That's not happening.

Personally, I wouldn't move things around like that, but I also would not designate a "closer" the way Hall does. I would stick with the hot hand in a case where the guy has gotten 6 straight outs. Kinda like he did Sunday, because the "closer" wasn't available and we had a big lead. And the hot hand stayed hot.

I agree with you on this. I think coaches and managers get to tied to the concept of 'roles' for pitchers than using them situationally. That includes CDH but unfortunately that's not out of the norm. I'd love to see that change but it'll take some time to filter down from the teams that are starting to do that.

I'm not saying Maxwell's role isn't a potential issue going forward. It will be if he doesn't lock his **** down. But the solution isn't to take a quality starter out of the rotation and replace him with a question mark.
 
Top