Virginia Postgame

[Lee]

I don't think people are basing it on one game. At least I'm not. The Temple game was worse to me. We had just lost to an FCS school which should give a little extra motivation, we were coming off a bye week, and we were playing the team that our head coach was coaching last year, which should give some advantage. With all of that going for us we put up a whopping 2 points and we weren't even competitive against a mediocre team that later gave up 63 points to UCF. We followed that up with equally uncompetitive games against two other mediocre teams. It was a pretty miserable stretch of games. Not just one game.

I was out if the country for the Temple game and did not go back to watch it. From looking at the play by play we were in FG range but went for it (for obvious reasons) on our 2nd drive. Oliver fumbled going into the endzone on a 3rd and goal on our 3rd drive. This would’ve put us up 10-0 at the time. We then fumbled (while in FG range again) that they scoop and scored. That’s at least 13 points with a good fg kicker and not fumbling (by the qb who would be running the O with the option still in town). 14-13 (or better) early 3rd instead of 21-0 looks a lot different.

Again, I didn’t watch the game, but it’s hard to argue that game looking different if we had a decent kicker and Oliver not fumbling twice (once going into the endzone).

Next point is that we did not have a qb. Graham is clearly the guy, but he was hurt for the Citadel game. If he didn’t have the classroom issues and could’ve focused more on football and the coaches didn’t have to worry about his eligibility, he could’ve started the season as QB1 and the offense would look a lot different now. Look how much better it has looked since he took over. It’s not where it needs to be, but it’s obvious they are playing better.

My point stands. If we had beaten Citadel and were 3-6 right now, the person I replied to’s expected win total would be well within reach. Some people can’t let go of the fact that we lost to one team (that we never should have lost to) and are grading this staff based solely on that one game and not the body of work throughout the season.

 

[Boaty1]

Ignores the point. Give GOL an extra patsy in his high water mark year of 10 wins and his SoS would have been lower than the 52nd that it actually was.

As for why the 16 team wasn't ranked? Easy, it started out 3-3 coming off a 3 win season. Has we been 9-4 with the losses scattered we would have been ranked. As it was, Sagarin had us ranked 23rd at the end of the season.

He was also an elite coach in 2014 with all his own players...

Hmmm. I thought the point was that using total wins is misleading. I think you agree with that.

Thanks for pointing out the SOS of the 16 team however. I have a hard time grading any team that doesn't finished ranked as anything above average but to each their own. Roughly a third of our teams since 89 have finished ranked and I would call those our good teams. If you think the 16 team was good then more power to you and by win total you are obviously correct that it was a good team.

Johnson's record from 10-18 was 63-53 for a winning % of 54%. Not terrible but not setting the world on fire either. The last 4 years of 24-25 are the real kicker and is what led many to believe that the path forward should not include the option. If you disagree with that then fine. But I'm not pushing a narrative. This is how I see it. I never did nor will I ever have a hate for Johnson.

 

[WreckinGT]

I was out if the country for the Temple game and did not go back to watch it. From looking at the play by play we were in FG range but went for it (for obvious reasons) on our 2nd drive. Oliver fumbled going into the endzone on a 3rd and goal on our 3rd drive. This would’ve put us up 10-0 at the time. We then fumbled (while in FG range again) that they scoop and scored. That’s at least 13 points with a good fg kicker and not fumbling (by the qb who would be running the O with the option still in town). 14-13 (or better) early 3rd instead of 21-0 looks a lot different.

Again, I didn’t watch the game, but it’s hard to argue that game looking different if we had a decent kicker and Oliver not fumbling twice (once going into the endzone).

Next point is that we did not have a qb. Graham is clearly the guy, but he was hurt for the Citadel game. If he didn’t have the classroom issues and could’ve focused more on football and the coaches didn’t have to worry about his eligibility, he could’ve started the season as QB1 and the offense would look a lot different now. Look how much better it has looked since he took over. It’s not where it needs to be, but it’s obvious they are playing better.

My point stands. If we had beaten Citadel and were 3-6 right now, the person I replied to’s expected win total would be well within reach. Some people can’t let go of the fact that we lost to one team (that we never should have lost to) and are grading this staff based solely on that one game and not the body of work throughout the season.

And if Miami had a kicker that could make chip shots we would be 1-8 right now. If USF wouldn't have fumbled at the goal line on a play that may not have even been a fumble we would be 0-9. We can play the mistakes and history rewriting game ad nauseam. We were extremely lucky to win the two games we won. Other teams make mistakes too.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

Hmmm. I thought the point was that using total wins is misleading. I think you agree with that

Why would I agree with that? You bring up ranking (top 25) as the key factor, which is predicated mainly on total wins.

By the way, most of the teams you would call good during that stretch had mediocre to horrible SoS. GOLs 10 win season and 9 win season had SoS ranked 52 and 62 respectively. CCG won 9 games with an SoS of 56. CPJs 9, 11, 11, and 9 win seasons had SoS of 40, 10, 28, and 42. I'd rate them as better teams than similar win totals against weaker schedules, regardless of the national ranking. But that would be using substantive facts, not arbitrary opinions as the measuring stick...

 

[Boaty1]

Why would I agree with that? You bring up ranking (top 25) as the key factor, which is predicated mainly on total wins.

By the way, most of the teams you would call good during that stretch had mediocre to horrible SoS. GOLs 10 win season and 9 win season had SoS ranked 52 and 62 respectively. CCG won 9 games with an SoS of 56. CPJs 9, 11, 11, and 9 win seasons had SoS of 40, 10, 28, and 42. I'd rate them as better teams than similar win totals against weaker schedules, regardless of the national ranking. But that would be using substantive facts, not arbitrary opinions as the measuring stick...

Yeah. Considering pretty much everything in college football is based on arbitrary measuring sticks and perception I'm going to stick with that.

 

[Boaty1]

Why would I agree with that? You bring up ranking (top 25) as the key factor, which is predicated mainly on total wins.

By the way, most of the teams you would call good during that stretch had mediocre to horrible SoS. GOLs 10 win season and 9 win season had SoS ranked 52 and 62 respectively. CCG won 9 games with an SoS of 56. CPJs 9, 11, 11, and 9 win seasons had SoS of 40, 10, 28, and 42. I'd rate them as better teams than similar win totals against weaker schedules, regardless of the national ranking. But that would be using substantive facts, not arbitrary opinions as the measuring stick...

Also, your original measuring stick was number of 9 win seasons. The fact that Johnson had more 12 game regular seasons than the rest of the coaches in the history of our program combined makes that a misleading statistic.

I like the SOS stats and it really sheds light on just how good our 09 team was.

 

[Animal02]

And if Miami had a kicker that could make chip shots we would be 1-8 right now. If USF wouldn't have fumbled at the goal line on a play that may not have even been a fumble we would be 0-9. We can play the mistakes and history rewriting game ad nauseam. We were extremely lucky to win the two games we won. Other teams make mistakes too.

We can play the same game with the 2015 season as well......we could as easily been 6-6 or more with a couple of breaks....but we were not. You are correct, we are lucky to have the two wins we have.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

Also, your original measuring stick was number of 9 win seasons. The fact that Johnson had more 12 game regular seasons than the rest of the coaches in the history of our program combined makes that a misleading statistic.

I like the SOS stats and it really sheds light on just how good our 09 team was.

Actually, 9 wins was not my measuring stick. It was merely a response to your calling 9 wins "average" when even if we moved it to 8 that would exceed the average amount of wins per year for the last 40 years or so. I'd love to see a day when we can call 9 wins average, but I promise you we aren't anywhere close to that right now and haven't been in a long while.

And yes, that 09 team was good. The 14 team was better.

 

[Boaty1]

Actually, 9 wins was not my measuring stick. It was merely a response to your calling 9 wins "average" when even if we moved it to 8 that would exceed the average amount of wins per year for the last 40 years or so. I'd love to see a day when we can call 9 wins average, but I promise you we aren't anywhere close to that right now and haven't been in a long while.

And yes, that 09 team was good. The 14 team was better.

I call a truce. Life is good we both love the Jackets and I'm about to go home to my wonderful family. Take care and I look forward to our next discussion which will undoubtedly arise sooner rather than later.

 

[gt02]

2014 was a great year. No denying that. I was one of the 5k or so fans that was down Miami celebrating the OB. It really is an outlier however when you remove what he did in 08 & 09 with the players he inherited.

We were not good in 16. We didn’t spend 1 week ranked. We were an average team. Maybe slightly above as I believe we were top 30.

same record in 2016 as in 2008. And in 2016, 3 of our 4 losses were to ranked teams.

 

[gt02]

No. They weren't.

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Don’t waste your time. Goalposts are always moving with him.

 

[Heisman's Ghost]

And if Miami had a kicker that could make chip shots we would be 1-8 right now. If USF wouldn't have fumbled at the goal line on a play that may not have even been a fumble we would be 0-9. We can play the mistakes and history rewriting game ad nauseam. We were extremely lucky to win the two games we won. Other teams make mistakes too.

After reviewing the play over and over, personally I think USF was jobbed but Miami, well, being Miami they would have found some creative way to lose that game and beat a ranked team the next week. It is what they do and I don't feel sorry for them in the slightest. A case can be made we should be 3-6 and an even stronger case can be made that we should be 1-8 but the fact remains that we have LOOKED improved in most phases but special teams remains a work in progress. If we lose to both Virginia Tech and NC State that would be a very bad omen. One way or another, this team and this coach has to figure out a way to win ball games or all the hype will fade away pretty quickly.

 

[gt02]

And if Miami had a kicker that could make chip shots we would be 1-8 right now. If USF wouldn't have fumbled at the goal line on a play that may not have even been a fumble we would be 0-9. We can play the mistakes and history rewriting game ad nauseam. We were extremely lucky to win the two games we won. Other teams make mistakes too.

USF was jobbed. Miami was not. We were the better team. We should have beat them by more.

 

[LibertyTurns]

No. They weren't.

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Thanks for the assist. People just blindly make stuff up because it makes them feel better I guess. If you watched the game OR was at the game you knew otherwise. I just happened to have a close friend that is neighbors of a player that was in the game. He’s got a completely different recollection and it’s supported by the video.

Look, I hope the coach succeeds as much as anyone. I probably fund the program more than all but 1-2 on here at most I guessing. The fact of the matter is he’s inexperienced and it’s compounded by having a green staff. This can either work out wonderfully, it can tank or he can be just like the others. 1 outcome is really bad, 1 outcome is ok, 1 outcome we’re all going to bronze his balls and have a parade. Hope it’s the latter but it does not make him immune from arm chair QB’ing.

 

[LongforDodd]

If that’s what you think we’ll just have to disagree. I don’t have a tape recording to share, but that’s not what the only Citadel defenders that had a shot of tackling him thought.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying. Are you intimating that Oliver had a surefire TD and the called timeout wiped a surefire TD off the scoreboard?

 

[LibertyTurns]

I'm not quite sure what you're saying. Are you intimating that Oliver had a surefire TD and the called timeout wiped a surefire TD off the scoreboard?

Nope, clearly the best move was to run all the time off the clock & kick a game tying FG. They train you on that in HC training school.

 

[LongforDodd]

Nope, clearly the best move was to run all the time off the clock & kick a game tying FG. They train you on that in HC training school.

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[herb]

It was an average season going back to the late 80's. Win/loss record was marginally better but the weak schedule resulted in us not being ranked for a single week during the year. Go back and look at what our program was over the 2 decades before that and you will see that is really below our standards.

If you were disappointed in that season, be prepared to be disappointed a LOT going forward. I like Collins, lukewarm at best on one of the assistants, but this is silly

 

[Boaty1]

If you were disappointed in that season, be prepared to be disappointed a LOT going forward. I like Collins, lukewarm at best on one of the assistants, but this is silly

Certainly wasn’t disappointed. It was a slightly above average team. I’m not prepared to call a team that finished unranked good by our standards. It’s an insult to the program and the 10 teams in 26 years that finished ranked before them. No need to lower the standards of the program to prop that team up.

 

[gt02]

Certainly wasn’t disappointed. It was a slightly above average team. I’m not prepared to call a team that finished unranked good by our standards. It’s an insult to the program and the 10 teams in 26 years that finished ranked before them. No need to lower the standards of the program to prop that team up.

This all started because you said 2008/2009 was the best two year stretch to show Paul's best was with CGC recruits. Of course, that ignores 2014, and I anticipate that your response would be that 2014 was an outlier, so I countered by pointing 2014/2016 was actually the best top two out of three year stretch, which was with Paul's recruits and not CGC.

Whether 2016 was good by your standards or not is besides the point. The point is that it was about the same as 2008. Which is back to my point about your "best two year stretch" being outcome driven.