Triple Option

[Northeast Stinger]

I think any reasonable person would say that, regardless of how hard it is to transition from one offense to another, year three is when previous schemes are no longer a factor.

What I think we are seeing now is the steep curve of trying to catch up with teams that are running similar schemes with far better recruits and more established coaching staffs.

 

[jgtengineer]

Root of our current woes, meaning that the CPJ and TO era was when our problems started. Meaning that our roster wasn’t fit for our new offense when CGC took over and still resonates today. I’ve even seen some fonts on this board say that our offense back then even diminished our defensive recruiting because recruits didn’t want to even practice against it. I’m not sure that I agree with any of these but I’ve seen posts like these since the transition began.

Regardless, I was having trouble finding out the exact seasons when other teams stopped running the option so I could try to see if or when the transition was successful.

Lou holtz still blames ND boosters fro missing out on 2-3 NC at ND when they forced him to abandon the wishbone.

 

[CuseJacket]

Root of our current woes, meaning that the CPJ and TO era was when our problems started. Meaning that our roster wasn’t fit for our new offense when CGC took over and still resonates today. I’ve even seen some fonts on this board say that our offense back then even diminished our defensive recruiting because recruits didn’t want to even practice against it. I’m not sure that I agree with any of these but I’ve seen posts like these since the transition began.

Regardless, I was having trouble finding out the exact seasons when other teams stopped running the option so I could try to see if or when the transition was successful.

I hear you, and I suspect it might just sound like semantics, but there is a big difference to me in “is it an issue because of the prior offense” vs “is it the pieces that we signed that in turn supported the prior offense and defense”. There’s enough space between those two explanations that I don’t think those are the same.

CPJ recruited many of the same players that decided to go elsewhere and participate in other offenses. The inverse is also true that there are some guys like Carter and Juanyeh that could have played P5 elsewhere but chose GT. I don’t think anyone attributes recruiting hits and misses solely to the prior offense, though certainly it was one of the factors.

 

[GTG768B]

Nebraska was last decent in the 90s. They dumped Frank Solich, the option, and their identity when they tried to install Bill Callahan's west coast offense... They haven't been anything near the same since.

 

[JacketintheNati]

We keep speaking of talent a PJ players versus CGC players. Against UNC 3 offensive starters were PJ recruits (excluded Yates and noted Sims since he was majority) and defense starters 7 PJ players including a player who earned a scholarship from CGC and was a walk-on. There is heavier rotation on defense, and many are CGC recruits. Bottom line, the offense has been transitioned and the defense has more rotation so a quick review of participation reports indicate about 25-33 % of contributing players remain PJ era.

Those numbers make it hard to argue or justify loses to NIU or even Pitt. Responsibility is a funny thing if you loved PJ it is CGC coaching, if you love CGC it is PJ leaving a 5 year transition.

You have a divided fan base and the money seems to be with CGC. Therefore, we must remember he who has the gold makes the rules. I don’t necessarily agree but I am a fan of GT not a scheme or a specific style - I just want to win in a fair and respectable manner of course.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Lou holtz still blames ND boosters fro missing out on 2-3 NC at ND when they forced him to abandon the wishbone.

I did not know that.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

We keep speaking of talent a PJ players versus CGC players. Against UNC 3 offensive starters were PJ recruits (excluded Yates and noted Sims since he was majority) and defense starters 7 PJ players including a player who earned a scholarship from CGC and was a walk-on. There is heavier rotation on defense, and many are CGC recruits. Bottom line, the offense has been transitioned and the defense has more rotation so a quick review of participation reports indicate about 25-33 % of contributing players remain PJ era.

Those numbers make it hard to argue or justify loses to NIU or even Pitt. Responsibility is a funny thing if you loved PJ it is CGC coaching, if you love CGC it is PJ leaving a 5 year transition.

You have a divided fan base and the money seems to be with CGC. Therefore, we must remember he who has the gold makes the rules. I don’t necessarily agree but I am a fan of GT not a scheme or a specific style - I just want to win in a fair and respectable manner of course.

And, for the record, it was CGC who told the AD prior to this season that he expected to win this year -hence the “win in 21” campaign. Maybe CGC should have claimed one more year in his massive largest cultural transition of a college football team in the history of the universe.

Just beat Duke and put together 2 wins in a row and most fans will forgive.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

Our woes are not the triple option. It's the fact that we are a mid level football program dwarfed in recruiting by UGA and other P5 programs. Our recruiting may improve but we are a long way from being a dominant institution.

Add to that poor preparation and game day coaching and you have what we have.

 

[jgtengineer]

I did not know that.

Yeah he basically accidently revealed it in an argument with mark may about Paul Johnson's offense in 2014 before the orange bowl where may did his dumbass take abotu how it can't be that great more people don't run it and holtz ripped him a new one about how thinking like that cost him 2-3 championships. He even picked us to win against ND in 2015 (then rightly said that injuries got us pointing out that by the end of the game we were running out of backs and playing a walk on).

 

[Jacketman]

We keep speaking of talent a PJ players versus CGC players. Against UNC 3 offensive starters were PJ recruits (excluded Yates and noted Sims since he was majority) and defense starters 7 PJ players including a player who earned a scholarship from CGC and was a walk-on. There is heavier rotation on defense, and many are CGC recruits. Bottom line, the offense has been transitioned and the defense has more rotation so a quick review of participation reports indicate about 25-33 % of contributing players remain PJ era.

Those numbers make it hard to argue or justify loses to NIU or even Pitt. Responsibility is a funny thing if you loved PJ it is CGC coaching, if you love CGC it is PJ leaving a 5 year transition.

You have a divided fan base and the money seems to be with CGC. Therefore, we must remember he who has the gold makes the rules. I don’t necessarily agree but I am a fan of GT not a scheme or a specific style - I just want to win in a fair and respectable manner of course.

Agree on most fronts, and I know this doesn't matter anymore and we moved past it BUT:

I don't care if CPJ left a 5 year transition, we should NEVER lose to the Citadel and we should NEVER lose to NIU at home no matter what. This has been an issue with Collins as a HC, his teams not showing up for games just like we didn't show up on Saturday (back to back losses against Buffalo and Villanova).

 

[RamblinCharger]

Transition time doesn’t matter, recruiting doesn’t matter either in respect to this season. Like many have said already, losing to NIU at home has nothing to do with recruiting or the 3O or PJs players. It’s all coaching. If we beat NIU at home by 20 like we should the Pitt game would be an outlier and probably forgiven based on the other 3 games. We would be 3-2 with a chance to make a bowl, which is what most wanted to see this year. Win 6 games and that would be considered a nice improvement. Losing head scratching games while looking completely foolish is the issue for CGC. You have to show up consistently and beat inferior teams in year 3. Beat Duke and then make improvements in the bye week to beat UVA and all is good moving forward, but the NIU loss is still the main issue in my mind, and then looking completely ridiculous against Pitt.

 

[ilovetheoption]

I think any reasonable person would say that, regardless of how hard it is to transition from one offense to another, year three is when previous schemes are no longer a factor.

What I think we are seeing now is the steep curve of trying to catch up with teams that are running similar schemes with far better recruits and more established coaching staffs.

This is it.

I understand that perhaps my opinion is not welcome here, but I would think if you knew nothing about me other than my handle, you can figure out how I feel about things.

Forget that the triple option ever happened at Georgia tech. It's gone, and it's not coming back. Enough fans believe that it's a problem (ignorantly, in my opinion, but it is what it is), and donors are no more educated than any other fans, they just have more money.

Geoff Collins is not going to win via scheme. It's not going to happen, so stop waiting for it to happen. If Geoff Collins is going to win, it's because his guys are going to be better than your guys, and he thinks he can get better guys than you.

What that means is recruiting and results are the only thing to look for in your program. Not offensive coordinators, not defensive coordinators, not play calling, not anything. Recruiting and results.

Geoff Collins has had two recruiting classes at Georgia Tech. His first class are sophomores now. That means they are two years of strength, conditioning and reps behind other teams that are trying to when the way you are. You're also two recruiting classes behind other teams that are trying to win the way you are.

I understand Collins said WIN in 21. Ignore that. He's chock full of slogans and this is another one. If he's going to win, he's going to win because he's got a pipeline full of talent and his talent is better than your talent. That's. It.

That means last year, this year, and most of next year are glorified practice. If you win great if you lose oh well.

Game one of the 2023 season is when there are no more excuses. Until then, I would treat Georgia Tech as you treat your local high school program, a fun diversion if they are good, but no sweat off your balls if they suck.

 

[GT_05]

This is it.

I understand that perhaps my opinion is not welcome here, but I would think if you knew nothing about me other than my handle, you can figure out how I feel about things.

Forget that the triple option ever happened at Georgia tech. It's gone, and it's not coming back. Enough fans believe that it's a problem (ignorantly, in my opinion, but it is what it is), and donors are no more educated than any other fans, they just have more money.

Geoff Collins is not going to win via scheme. It's not going to happen, so stop waiting for it to happen. If Geoff Collins is going to win, it's because his guys are going to be better than your guys, and he thinks he can get better guys than you.

What that means is recruiting and results are the only thing to look for in your program. Not offensive coordinators, not defensive coordinators, not play calling, not anything. Recruiting and results.

Geoff Collins has had two recruiting classes at Georgia Tech. His first class are sophomores now. That means they are two years of strength, conditioning and reps behind other teams that are trying to when the way you are. You're also two recruiting classes behind other teams that are trying to win the way you are.

I understand Collins said WIN in 21. Ignore that. He's chock full of slogans and this is another one. If he's going to win, he's going to win because he's got a pipeline full of talent and his talent is better than your talent. That's. It.

That means last year, this year, and most of next year are glorified practice. If you win great if you lose oh well.

Game one of the 2023 season is when there are no more excuses. Until then, I would treat Georgia Tech as you treat your local high school program, a fun diversion if they are good, but no sweat off your balls if they suck.

FWIW, I’ve always enjoyed reading your posts.

Here’s an interesting article that you may appreciate:

No one wants the triple option. No one can explain why.

Even Kansas, and they’re Kansas.

www.google.com

 

[UgaBlows]

This is it.

I understand that perhaps my opinion is not welcome here, but I would think if you knew nothing about me other than my handle, you can figure out how I feel about things.

Forget that the triple option ever happened at Georgia tech. It's gone, and it's not coming back. Enough fans believe that it's a problem (ignorantly, in my opinion, but it is what it is), and donors are no more educated than any other fans, they just have more money.

Geoff Collins is not going to win via scheme. It's not going to happen, so stop waiting for it to happen. If Geoff Collins is going to win, it's because his guys are going to be better than your guys, and he thinks he can get better guys than you.

What that means is recruiting and results are the only thing to look for in your program. Not offensive coordinators, not defensive coordinators, not play calling, not anything. Recruiting and results.

Geoff Collins has had two recruiting classes at Georgia Tech. His first class are sophomores now. That means they are two years of strength, conditioning and reps behind other teams that are trying to when the way you are. You're also two recruiting classes behind other teams that are trying to win the way you are.

I understand Collins said WIN in 21. Ignore that. He's chock full of slogans and this is another one. If he's going to win, he's going to win because he's got a pipeline full of talent and his talent is better than your talent. That's. It.

That means last year, this year, and most of next year are glorified practice. If you win great if you lose oh well.

Game one of the 2023 season is when there are no more excuses. Until then, I would treat Georgia Tech as you treat your local high school program, a fun diversion if they are good, but no sweat off your balls if they suck.

Your posts will always be welcome here!

I totally agree with what your saying, but why couldn’t (Or wouldn’t) Collins hire very good coordinators to help on the scheme part, like Dabo? Unless it’s a money issue which is likely given our fanbase

 

[slugboy]

This is it.

I understand that perhaps my opinion is not welcome here, but I would think if you knew nothing about me other than my handle, you can figure out how I feel about things.

Forget that the triple option ever happened at Georgia tech. It's gone, and it's not coming back. Enough fans believe that it's a problem (ignorantly, in my opinion, but it is what it is), and donors are no more educated than any other fans, they just have more money.

Geoff Collins is not going to win via scheme. It's not going to happen, so stop waiting for it to happen. If Geoff Collins is going to win, it's because his guys are going to be better than your guys, and he thinks he can get better guys than you.

What that means is recruiting and results are the only thing to look for in your program. Not offensive coordinators, not defensive coordinators, not play calling, not anything. Recruiting and results.

Geoff Collins has had two recruiting classes at Georgia Tech. His first class are sophomores now. That means they are two years of strength, conditioning and reps behind other teams that are trying to when the way you are. You're also two recruiting classes behind other teams that are trying to win the way you are.

I understand Collins said WIN in 21. Ignore that. He's chock full of slogans and this is another one. If he's going to win, he's going to win because he's got a pipeline full of talent and his talent is better than your talent. That's. It.

That means last year, this year, and most of next year are glorified practice. If you win great if you lose oh well.

Game one of the 2023 season is when there are no more excuses. Until then, I would treat Georgia Tech as you treat your local high school program, a fun diversion if they are good, but no sweat off your balls if they suck.

Re: winning on scheme—Collins won’t win on scheme on offense, but on defense he could win on a combination of scheme and recruits. It’s hard to win games on scheme on defense, but it can help keep you in the game (see Army). I think Collins is trying to set up a disruptive defense partially on scheme. However, the leverage has moved to the offensive side of the ball, which is not his specialty.

Here’s an example of another defensive minded coach: Saban, even though I get the impression he loathed Lane Kiffin, and all but gave him an office in the boiler room, allowed Kiffin to build the offense they run today, and won a championship thanks to Kiffin. Yes, it’s RPO-ish, but Kiffin knows how to work it in a really interesting fashion. They still have the offense he built.

 

[ilovetheoption]

FWIW, I’ve always enjoyed reading your posts.

Here’s an interesting article that you may appreciate:

No one wants the triple option. No one can explain why.

Even Kansas, and they’re Kansas.

www.google.com

Yeah, this is going to sound a-holey of me, but it boils down to the fact that fans and donors are a combination of arrogant and ignorant.

Ignorant because they don't really know what they're talking about. 99% of fans don't really understand college football to any appreciable degree. I consider myself more knowledgeable than most (lol, although who doesn't?) and I know enough to know that I only understand college football xs and os well enough to describe it, but not well enough to coach it. Hell, I can barely coach it at the high school level

The bigger problem is the arrogance. Fans at schools like kansas, and yukon, and frankly Georgia Tech think that they're one great recruiter away from recruiting like Georgia and Clemson. They're not. The reason these schools are in the position they are in is because they are not Clemson or Georgia, and their school is not willing to do what it takes to be Clemson or georgia.

Kansas hired landslie uphold instead of Lane kiffin or Lincoln Riley because they're Kansas and they're going to stay kansas.

Once in a blue moons Blue Moon it works out, but the 51% play is to hire a guy with a schematic advantage because realistically you are who you are recruiting wise. You can be at the top of your bracket or the bottom of your bracket depending upon your coach and his recruiting skills, but you're going to stay in your bracket.

Fans never believe that though, and honestly they never will. Matt Campbell happens just often enough to skew people's expectations of what is possible and reasonable.

That's the reason the bad hatter goes to Lawrence and suddenly sucks. That's the reason Jeff Collins is going to be blah at Georgia tech.

Apologies for the rant and the typos, I'm using speech to text while I'm driving around on Monday morning trying to motivate to go into the office cuz my 55-year-old boss thinks it's important for all of us to be in a building so we can all sit in our offices and work on our computers and never talk to each other.

 

[ilovetheoption]

Re: winning on scheme—Collins won’t win on scheme on offense, but on defense he could win on a combination of scheme and recruits. It’s hard to win games on scheme on defense, but it can help keep you in the game (see Army). I think Collins is trying to set up a disruptive defense partially on scheme. However, the leverage has moved to the offensive side of the ball, which is not his specialty.

Here’s an example of another defensive minded coach: Saban, even though I get the impression he loathed Lane Kiffin, and all but gave him an office in the boiler room, allowed Kiffin to build the offense they run today, and won a championship thanks to Kiffin. Yes, it’s RPO-ish, but Kiffin knows how to work it in a really interesting fashion. They still have the offense he built.

As you said, the leverage is on the offensive side of the ball. The rule set is so violently over balanced to offense right now that it's nearly impossible to scheme your way to success on defense. Really super creative guys can do it, but you guys are from familiar with bell curves, and you know how many of those exist. I consider bronco mendenhall a really creative, good defensive coordinator,. And below average teams are running through us like we OD'd on ivermectin. To be honest, Jeff Collins is not that guy in my opinion.

 

[jgtengineer]

As you said, the leverage is on the offensive side of the ball. The rule set is so violently over balanced to offense right now that it's nearly impossible to scheme your way to success on defense. Really super creative guys can do it, but you guys are from familiar with bell curves, and you know how many of those exist. I consider bronco mendenhall a really creative, good defensive coordinator,. And below average teams are running through us like we OD'd on ivermectin. To be honest, Jeff Collins is not that guy in my opinion.

This is pretty much why they kept trying to rule change against the the flexbone. Any defenses that worked against the spread offense ruleset was shredded by the flex. Now that its really only ran at the academies they don't target. Though I expect southern will go back traditional soon. Seeing that they just fired lundsford and the current guy played in it (though he played corner) and coached it at the high school level for 20 years. IF he gets the HC job and southern wins out or something.

 

[ilovetheoption]

This is pretty much why they kept trying to rule change against the the flexbone. Any defenses that worked against the spread offense ruleset was shredded by the flex. Now that its really only ran at the academies they don't target. Though I expect southern will go back traditional soon. Seeing that they just fired lundsford and the current guy played in it (though he played corner) and coached it at the high school level for 20 years. IF he gets the HC job and southern wins out or something.

how are we defining traditional?

 

[jgtengineer]

how are we defining traditional?

Undercenter, veer and power blocking schemes, Flex formation. The last game southern employed the diamond on something like 40 percent of plays and ran for 503 yards mostly from the B back position in that formation. Under lundsford, southern seemed to try to force the pass a bit. Which i think was because the AD before this one was very anti-option for some reason. He hired van gorder, then hatcher, then begrudgingly hired monken, then when monken went to army he hired fritz because fritz ran from the gun. And so Lundsford was continuing that.

I'd consider traditional being an undercenter base formation down hill attack as the primary formation. And for georgia southern tradition IS the flex.