The DC Debate

[PBR549]

Yes, stats don't always show everything, but after 10+ years of the same type of stats that should tell you something. You say I don't know if he's underachieved, and you are correct, but if I don't know that, then you don't know if he is underachieving or not because you also do not know what the talent level is if you are not watching it everyday, so you have no clue if he's overachieving, underachieving, or right where he should be, so to say "Elite" is a stretch, and it's kind of contradicting to say he's elite when you don't know the talent level either. Just because a coach has been to a lot of different schools doesn't mean elite( elite mean a group of superior people that are above the rest at what they do) is roof superior at the college level to the other coaches to you? maybe it's just our definition of elite that's different, elite to me is a very small group of coaches not just guys that have coached a long time, they actually have to show me something on the field to make them elite. I'm sorry, not puttig a top D on the field ever is not elite to me. He's been the D coordinator at GT for how long? He's had plenty of time to have a good deffense, it doesn't take that long to turn things around because it's all his guys on the feild now and not the other defensive coordinators, so that's not a very good argument. I understand you know him, but I just don't see how a D in the 60's is exceptable if you want to really win, and to say if we get rid of him we will be in trouble is crazy, we might would get a great D coordinator, and I have seen coaches in 1 year turn a D around. I personally have nothing against roof and I think he's a good football mind, he knows about football, and because I don't know if he's underachieving or not I can't say I want him gone that's why I never said we should fire him, but something needs to get better on D if we want to compete imo., and if he can be the one to turn it around then great, because he's a good recruiter, and seems to be a good guy.

Your right I'm not able to make a 100% judgement on our talent level any more than you are. Roof was hired by CPJ, Bill O'Brien, George O'Leary ect. With all due respect I think they have a much better idea of whether he can coach than you do.

 

[PBR549]

So I have said this a million times. What validates roof as a mediocre at best coach for me is the tape I see on gameday. Forget the rankings, but the rankings help support what I see. When others not involved with the program, that evaluate players, also point out the oddities of our D scheme and logic totally independent, it is more validation to that point I am making. When ex players at GT, say the same thing, its more validation too.

Could everyone be wrong? Sure. Could the stats have some unique circumstance behind his rankings (Despite 4 schools and a decade) sure. Could all the people observing what they observe on the field on saturdays for many years (3-4 now just a tech) be wrong; all formulating the same opinion independently? Sure.

but for me. I will stick with my opinion. He is at best a mediocre/avg coach who can have a flash in the pan D every 5 or 6 years but for the most part, what he has shown at GT is who he is and what he will be. Which is not that great

these are my opinions. I have the same or similar about Sewak. What hurts roof on his D scheme is a very un-inventive style that has no backend complexity; basic blitz packages; simple backend coverage schemes with little to no masking that often times exposes the DB's. Furthermore, his un-aggressive style in coverage kills our ability to play D, which by nature needs to be aggressive, and due to this, he will consistently give up yardage, 3rd down conversions, and untimely points, all worse than can be due to crap scheming. Also pointed out by CPJ, stating, that it needs to change and be more aggressive. And when you statistically look at it...this is exactly what you see...bad 3rd down percentages, high yardages, high offensive efficiency vs us.

The amazing thing, with those who defend roof, is paul said himself, that our D is unacceptable. He said we need to look at the scheme, its way to passive at times, that our 3rd down performance is consistently bad and we need to look at why, and our inability to get pressure continues to be an issue. Much of this can be improved, with a better coach. Some of it....will flatline due to some talent gaps...this I admit. But we are better in talent than #100 or 80 in the NCAA....and thats my point. We are underperforming to who we have.

I dismiss the idea that "everyone" thinks Roof is a bad coach and again if you're using that bogus artcle as evidence it's a far reach. Just because someone played the game doesn't qualify them as a scheme evaluator for sure. Some of the worst coaches I've ever been around have been former NFL players. I suggest that that to determine who is a quality coach you see what their peers think. Obviously CTR is well thought of by his peers or he would not have been in the positions he has been in over his career. I can personally attest to the fact that he is well respected by his peers.
I think we will be better on defense this year but if not and Roof moves on it will not be good for Tech and probably not for CPJ. You have nothing to loose on the other hand except all of us suffering through another rebuilding process.

 

[augustabuzz]

... I wish I could remember the coach and where I heard the comment last year, but one coach said that most college games are not about who is going to win but who is going to avoid losing and that is the difference in most college games.

Pepper Rogers said something similar to me 40 years ago. He said, "Most games played on Sunday are won and most games played on Saturday are lost!"

 

[Techster]

The measurable difference on the field seems to come down to coaching and a player's individual drive to succeed. And, the difference between a won game and a lost game, is often quite small. I wish I could remember the coach and where I heard the comment last year, but one coach said that most college games are not about who is going to win but who is going to avoid losing and that is the difference in most college games.

Was that Chan Gailey?!! He was consistently right about that 7 times every year...

I kid, I kid...kinda...

 

[tech_wreck47]

Your right I'm not able to make a 100% judgement on our talent level any more than you are. Roof was hired by CPJ, Bill O'Brien, George O'Leary ect. With all due respect I think they have a much better idea of whether he can coach than you do.

Once again you have missed my point no where did I say he didn't know how to coach, I am saying that we need to do something better on D if we want to compete and a D in the 60's should not be expectable. My whole point is that i don't see how you put him in the elite category, and that's why I'm saying the stuff I'm saying to explain why I don't see it that way. Ted roof was fired at duke after a 1 and 11 season, and look at their D now, it's a lot better, he also left auburn for central Florida, that doesn't seem weird to you for him to leave a Sec school just off of a national championship for central Florida ? This happened after auburn fans wanted him gone because the D was less than spectacular. By your argument that means every coach in college or pros that have coached for multiple teams is an elite coach. If you notice the coaches that are winning consistently and taking their teams to championships are not being fired and stay at one school for a very long time, and if they are not a head coach and they leave, its normally for a head coaching spot, or a better opurtunity has came up. There's obviously a reason he has been fired and left a top teir school for a lower school imo. But once again I'm just stating things as I see it, i just haven't seen him have a top deffense, that doesn't mean he doesn't know football though, and like I said before from what I know he's a very good guy but I'm simply going off of what I see and stats, and yes, I know stats don't tell the whole story but they deffenitely start to after a long time of coaching.

 

[AE 87]

Ok, no big deal, but ...
you mean acceptable not exceptable nor expectable, ... right?

 

[tech_wreck47]

Ok, no big deal, but ...
you mean acceptable not exceptable nor expectable, ... right?

Haha yes I was in the car I probably shouldnt GTSwarm and drive

 

[tech_wreck47]

Ok, no big deal, but ...
you mean acceptable not exceptable nor expectable, ... right?

Haha yes, I was in the car I probably shouldnt GTSwarm and drive

 

[tech_wreck47]

Haha yes, I was in the car I probably shouldnt GTSwarm and drive

Actually, I wasn't even driving when I wrote that. I need to go back to school again, is it ok if I just blame it on auto correct lol?

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Good, well thought out post. But I really see this part differently....

simple backend coverage schemes with little to no masking that often times exposes the DB's.

I saw a defense which was very subtle in its coverage in the secondary, not always showing or giving away what they were doing. This is how Tech was able to come up with key interceptions several times in 2014. The coverage looked like one kind of coverage, because it looked identical to the coverage on previous plays, but the assignments for the DBs was actually different.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Ted roof was fired at duke after a 1 and 11 season, and look at their D now, it's a lot better, he also left auburn for central Florida, that doesn't seem weird to you for him to leave a Sec school just off of a national championship for central Florida ? This happened after auburn fans wanted him gone because the D was less than spectacular.

This was not my memory. At least your interpretation does not fit with what I remember.

Roof struggled as a head coach. He was not ready for that in the past for whatever reason. Who knows if he would be today.

As for Auburn, Roof left because he was interested in making his own career and not being stuck in a situation that would not allow him that chance. Again, I think at that time he wanted to be a head coach. The idea that Auburn fans got rid of him is a retrospective interpretation that did not seem to be the majority opinion at the time.

But that is just my memory.

 

[tech_wreck47]

This was not my memory. At least your interpretation does not fit with what I remember.

Roof struggled as a head coach. He was not ready for that in the past for whatever reason. Who knows if he would be today.

As for Auburn, Roof left because he was interested in making his own career and not being stuck in a situation that would not allow him that chance. Again, I think at that time he wanted to be a head coach. The idea that Auburn fans got rid of him is a retrospective interpretation that did not seem to be the majority opinion at the time.

But that is just my memory.

I see what you are saying and I could be wrong, that's just how I took it, but from what you are saying I can understand that.

 

[PBR549]

I see what you are saying and I could be wrong, that's just how I took it, but from what you are saying I can understand that.

He was promoted at Duke.

True that coaches who are fortunate enough to be at a place where you have the top pick of athletes and are able to meet expectations of "fans" and alumni often do stay a long time. The problem is those places are few and far between. That's why there are not many coaches like Bowdon and Beamer around anymore. They wouldn't make it today because they both struggled early in their careers and "stats" would have got them fired. They still would have been great coaches even if they had been fired way back when.
Give our young defensive players who were recruited by CTR a chance to mature. He is a master at motivating kids by the way and let's see what we can do. CPJ thought he was good enough to hire so I'm not sure why you think you know better than him?

 

[tech_wreck47]

He was promoted at Duke.

True that coaches who are fortunate enough to be at a place where you have the top pick of athletes and are able to meet expectations of "fans" and alumni often do stay a long time. The problem is those places are few and far between. That's why there are not many coaches like Bowdon and Beamer around anymore. They wouldn't make it today because they both struggled early in their careers and "stats" would have got them fired. They still would have been great coaches even if they had been fired way back when.
Give our young defensive players who were recruited by CTR a chance to mature. He is a master at motivating kids by the way and let's see what we can do. CPJ thought he was good enough to hire so I'm not sure why you think you know better than him?

I guess you keep ignoring my point, I never said I knew better than cpj. The point I'm trying to get across is that we need to do better on D, would you not agree? I'm also trying to figure out where you get "elite" from when the definition is someone that's superior in what they do, I just don't see where he is superior to other college defensive coordinators. That's not a hit on Roof, just how I see it. I also never said he wasn't a good coach, it seems like you are just being blinded at what I'm saying because you are wanting to defend a friend. I even said if Roof can turn it around, then I would be happy for him to be at GT. I will say that our problem has been the D line, but I do believe we have gotten bigger and more atheletic there which should help. It seems to me you are ignoring anything I have said though, so idk why I keep trying to make my point, when words are pretty much being put in my mouth.

 

[PBR549]

Yes we need to be better on D.
I said Roof is in the top one or two percent of the coaches in the coaching profession. I think that is a fair accessment. He's been a DC at high profile places. He's been a head coach at a power 5 school. He's made the top one or two percent of money in the coaching profession. He's sought after by head coaches. He's highly thought of by his peers and his players. He loves Tech.
I don't know what else to tell you.
I think if we fire him and try to find someone better we're barking up the wrong tree.

 

[PBR549]

I guess you keep ignoring my point, I never said I knew better than cpj. The point I'm trying to get across is that we need to do better on D, would you not agree? I'm also trying to figure out where you get "elite" from when the definition is someone that's superior in what they do, I just don't see where he is superior to other college defensive coordinators. That's not a hit on Roof, just how I see it. I also never said he wasn't a good coach, it seems like you are just being blinded at what I'm saying because you are wanting to defend a friend. I even said if Roof can turn it around, then I would be happy for him to be at GT. I will say that our problem has been the D line, but I do believe we have gotten bigger and more atheletic there which should help. It seems to me you are ignoring anything I have said though, so idk why I keep trying to make my point, when words are pretty much being put in my mouth.

One other thing. I wouldn't exactly call him a friend more of a professional acquaintance. I have had many professional aquantances over many years. He stands out as a football coach and recruiter at the top of my list and that's above a lot of great football coaches and recruiters.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

One other thing. I wouldn't exactly call him a friend more of a professional acquaintance. I have had many professional aquantances over many years. He stands out as a football coach and recruiter at the top of my list and that's above a lot of great football coaches and recruiters.

These conversations always follow well worn paths: "If our coaches are so good then why don't we see better results on the field?"

In these well worn conversations I have never yet had anyone answer for me why it is that coaches who do well at other places do not do as well here or why coaches who do not do well here seem to do so much better at other places? Anybody who has followed Tech over the years could name examples of what I am talking about.

So my contention is that until that piece of the puzzle is accounted for it is meaningless to compare a coach's record at Tech with a totally different set of coach's records at another schools. I would rather compare Curry at Tech versus Curry at Alabama or Carson at Tech versus Carson with the Steelers or Rodgers at Kansas and UCLA versus Rodgers at Tech, Spurrier at Tech versus Spurrier at South Carolina, Charles Kelly at Tech versus Charles Kelly at FSU and so on.

I think it is very hard to look at recruiting classes at Tech and on field results and say in a vacuum that we could do better with a different coach. Tech has changed many coaches over the years, and many of these changes may have been called for, but they rarely brought instant success or improved the overall standing of Tech that much.

So, all of that is to say, I think it is highly likely that CTR could be an excellent coach and our not be able to see irrefutable evidence of that in his first three years.

 

[PBR549]

These conversations always follow well worn paths: "If our coaches are so good then why don't we see better results on the field?"

In these well worn conversations I have never yet had anyone answer for me why it is that coaches who do well at other places do not do as well here or why coaches who do not do well here seem to do so much better at other places? Anybody who has followed Tech over the years could name examples of what I am talking about.

So my contention is that until that piece of the puzzle is accounted for it is meaningless to compare a coach's record at Tech with a totally different set of coach's records at another schools. I would rather compare Curry at Tech versus Curry at Alabama or Carson at Tech versus Carson with the Steelers or Rodgers at Kansas and UCLA versus Rodgers at Tech, Spurrier at Tech versus Spurrier at South Carolina, Charles Kelly at Tech versus Charles Kelly at FSU and so on.

I think it is very hard to look at recruiting classes at Tech and on field results and say in a vacuum that we could do better with a different coach. Tech has changed many coaches over the years, and many of these changes may have been called for, but they rarely brought instant success or improved the overall standing of Tech that much.

So, all of that is to say, I think it is highly likely that CTR could be an excellent coach and our not be able to see irrefutable evidence of that in his first three years.

Well said.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

Our D was pretty awful at times in 14. With our lack of depth, especially on the Dline...they over performed like mad IMO. Granted...that was in large part due to big plays / turnovers. Were those not due in part to play calls? We may have had a top 70 D in 14 but I think the coaching job in 14 was probably a top 20 performance.

 

[33jacket]

Good, well thought out post. But I really see this part differently....



I saw a defense which was very subtle in its coverage in the secondary, not always showing or giving away what they were doing. This is how Tech was able to come up with key interceptions several times in 2014. The coverage looked like one kind of coverage, because it looked identical to the coverage on previous plays, but the assignments for the DBs was actually different.

Actually we telegraph 9 out 9.5 plays. A few you recall were just great baits by the cb not necessarily a design of disguising covg. One that comes to mind is white vs vt. He baited him. But it was totally obvious it was cover 2 at the snap. He just dropped hard when he read the qbs eyes. For me presnap we tell way too early and often in blitzes too.