The "Collins effect "........

[ncjacket79]

Some here appear to be arguing that if we don’t aim to out recruit Clemson...we are shooting for mediocrity.

You can’t do it all in one day. First improve, then keep thinks rolling and one day we may catch Clemson. But even if we don’t as long as we’re improving we’re heading in the right direction.

 

[GPD]

And by the way, I was, and remain, a firm supporter of Coach Johnson... love and respect the man and coach..he was my Coach.

Fact is, my Coach decided to take a break.. and he did so in such a way to allow my team to move forward in a productive and efficient manner.
We hired a leader of men to replace a leader of men... I'm proud of that, and very optimistic that we are going to built upon his success, and take our program to exciting new places.

We CAN do it, if we will just jump on the opportunity and DO it.

 

[Madison Grant]

I hope I'm not accused of making a 'straw man' argument because I pointed out that people have said we CAN'T because of academics, CAN'T because of fan base, CAN'T because of attendance, CAN'T because of money because that's not a straw man. You people will literally not shut up about this ISH. And you've moved your opponents goalposts on what the 'CAN'T" is because you say we want to be Clemson or Bama, and we aren't saying that. And those same people are saying Geoff Collins is going to be a bad hire because he "won't change anything". I mean he only went 15-10 at Temple. His recruiting classes were ranked so and so. He was only good as DC at Florida because they're loaded. This is not straw man. These are YOUR arguments.

At the same time I've gone out of my way to praise CPJ for getting our academic house in order, for beating UGAg 3 times, getting us to 2 Orange Bowls, and even agreed his tenure was better than Gailey's, despite a minimal difference in winning percentage. I'll take the higher highs under CPJ. But I don't think we have to hire Monken or Bohannon or Willy Fritz and keep running the ball 90% of the time to compete. I'm sorry if that's a 'straw man'. It's the overwhelming impression I'm left with. If that's not your argument, AE 87, what is?

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

Well, we've tried one assembly model, and we've maxed out our production. Do we go to the bank and take out another massive investment loan and try what we believe can yield that better production that will allow us to succeed at expanding? Or do we kick rocks and except our limited market?

Are you arguing to maintain funding at 61st of 65 p5 programs?

 

[Supersizethatorder-mutt]

I hope I'm not accused of making a 'straw man' argument because I pointed out that people have said we CAN'T because of academics, CAN'T because of fan base, CAN'T because of attendance, CAN'T because of money because that's not a straw man. You people will literally not shut up about this ISH. And you've moved your opponents goalposts on what the 'CAN'T" is because you say we want to be Clemson or Bama, and we aren't saying that. And those same people are saying Geoff Collins is going to be a bad hire because he "won't change anything". I mean he only went 15-10 at Temple. His recruiting classes were ranked so and so. He was only good as DC at Florida because they're loaded. This is not straw man. These are YOUR arguments.

At the same time I've gone out of my way to praise CPJ for getting our academic house in order, for beating UGAg 3 times, getting us to 2 Orange Bowls, and even agreed his tenure was better than Gailey's, despite a minimal difference in winning percentage. I'll take the higher highs under CPJ. But I don't think we have to hire Monken or Bohannon or Willy Fritz and keep running the ball 90% of the time to compete. I'm sorry if that's a 'straw man'. It's the overwhelming impression I'm left with. If that's not your argument, AE 87, what is?

The only one of your "CAN'T"s that I think is real is the money one. We CAN survive and improve in spite of and even because of academics if it's done right. We CAN grow our fan base, and we CAN increase attendance, but we simply CAN'T without money, and it's time ALL Tech men and women step up to the plate and put their money where their mouths are. The fact that so many so-called fans stopped giving because they didn't like Johnson or what they thought he brought to Tech shows we have been stifled by the lack of monetary support for wrong reasons. I am not by any stretch of the imagination a wealthy man, but I have given annually, and I have bought season tickets annually since 1967, through much more seemingly hopeless periods AND COACHES than most of the people on these threads have seen, and I plan on continuing to do both as long as I am on this earth. It is only when fans and supporters UNCONDITIONALLY support the program that we can move forward, or really even survive. GIVE, people, GIVE !!!! I am neither for nor against CCG right now, but I AM excited about the prospects, and he has my UNCONDITIONAL 100% support, win or lose, just as CPJ had and would have continued to have, had he not retired.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

I try not to draw straw men. If I fail I apologize. Facts are something I try to bring to all discussions. I’m glad you recognize the straw man whiskey is drawing up now though my friend.

Please point out my straw man.

 

[Madison Grant]

Are you arguing to maintain funding at 61st of 65 p5 programs?

You have to sell the investment bank on your production model. They aren't just going to give you money because you believe the Model T is underappreciated. You have to show them your model can sell. Sports is entertainment.

Do you know the whole story of Henry Ford? He bucked his son like hell because his son wanted to change the Model T. It was losing sales to Chevrolet. All Chevrolet had done was add a few bells and whistles to attract customers. Henry Ford wanted to produce only his Model T in black. Although Ford may have been right that Chevrolet's changes were superficial, he was losing sales.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

I hope I'm not accused of making a 'straw man' argument because I pointed out that people have said we CAN'T because of academics, CAN'T because of fan base, CAN'T because of attendance, CAN'T because of money because that's not a straw man. You people will literally not shut up about this ISH. And you've moved your opponents goalposts on what the 'CAN'T" is because you say we want to be Clemson or Bama, and we aren't saying that. And those same people are saying Geoff Collins is going to be a bad hire because he "won't change anything". I mean he only went 15-10 at Temple. His recruiting classes were ranked so and so. He was only good as DC at Florida because they're loaded. This is not straw man. These are YOUR arguments.

At the same time I've gone out of my way to praise CPJ for getting our academic house in order, for beating UGAg 3 times, getting us to 2 Orange Bowls, and even agreed his tenure was better than Gailey's, despite a minimal difference in winning percentage. I'll take the higher highs under CPJ. But I don't think we have to hire Monken or Bohannon or Willy Fritz and keep running the ball 90% of the time to compete. I'm sorry if that's a 'straw man'. It's the overwhelming impression I'm left with. If that's not your argument, AE 87, what is?

Tech has not supported football the way our peers and rivals have. CGC may be able to take us to highs CPJ only dreamed of. But it’s not very likely to happen on anything approaching a consistent basis if Tech doesn’t match our peers.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

I hope I'm not accused of making a 'straw man' argument because I pointed out that people have said we CAN'T because of academics, CAN'T because of fan base, CAN'T because of attendance, CAN'T because of money because that's not a straw man. You people will literally not shut up about this ISH. And you've moved your opponents goalposts on what the 'CAN'T" is because you say we want to be Clemson or Bama, and we aren't saying that. And those same people are saying Geoff Collins is going to be a bad hire because he "won't change anything". I mean he only went 15-10 at Temple. His recruiting classes were ranked so and so. He was only good as DC at Florida because they're loaded. This is not straw man. These are YOUR arguments.

At the same time I've gone out of my way to praise CPJ for getting our academic house in order, for beating UGAg 3 times, getting us to 2 Orange Bowls, and even agreed his tenure was better than Gailey's, despite a minimal difference in winning percentage. I'll take the higher highs under CPJ. But I don't think we have to hire Monken or Bohannon or Willy Fritz and keep running the ball 90% of the time to compete. I'm sorry if that's a 'straw man'. It's the overwhelming impression I'm left with. If that's not your argument, AE 87, what is?

Many preferred Monken before the hire. That conversation is history now and I don’t see the connection with the current discussion.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

You have to sell the investment bank on your production model. They aren't just going to give you money because you believe the Model T is underappreciated. You have to show them your model can sell. Sports is entertainment.

Do you know the whole story of Henry Ford? He bucked his son like hell because his son wanted to change the Model T. It was losing sales to Chevrolet. All Chevrolet had done was add a few bells and whistles to attract customers. Henry Ford wanted to produce only his Model T in black. Although Ford may have been right that Chevrolet's changes were superficial, he was losing sales.

What are you even saying? Have we completed the funding initiative but failed to announce it? Have we renovated the edge building already? Have we spent salary money to bring in the best possible coaches already? Have we now expanded our recruiting staff to 40 paid staffers not counting volunteer student contributions?

 

[Madison Grant]

Tech has not supported football the way our peers and rivals have. CGC may be able to take us to highs CPJ only dreamed of. But it’s not very likely to happen on anything approaching a consistent basis if Tech doesn’t match our peers.

The cart doesn't come before the horse. Have the vision to sell people on. What was being done was not it.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

The cart doesn't come before the horse. Have the vision to sell people on. What was being done was not it.

Gotcha. So you are still focusing on our prior scheme and coaches. I think most of the rest of us have moved beyond that discussion. Are you sure you aren’t a rabid CPJ hater. You seem to be having a harder time letting go than his supporters are.

Here is my point. I thought it was simple but it appears I was mistaken. We have been way behind the eight ball in funding staff and everything else. Hopefully the new found excitement will help raise those funds as you allude to.

Bet we are playing catch up. If Tech doesn’t commit to spending equivalently we will most likely have another decade much like the last one, possibly worse, even if CGC proves to be a net improvement over CPJ.

 

[gthxxxx]

Just let them enjoy their delusions for a while. It is like day one of getting a puppy. Reality will soon set in like a two-by-four across the back of the head.

Nothing has changed. We are still the same 5'10" middle aged fat guy stepping onto an inner-city bball court, thinking "I've got this!".

If I were recruiting against us I’d just send a link to this post (amongst a plethora of others by you and your ilk). Who needs to negative recruit when bitterender CPJ fanboys take care of it for you?

Did you misquote? His post didn't mention CPJ at all. Unless you just wanted to take a dump on GT's outgoing coach (who is leaving on a positive note, I might add), which I would describe as negative to a prospective GT recruit.

 

[Madison Grant]

Are you sure you aren’t a rabid CPJ hater. Straw man even if CGC proves to be a net improvement over CPJ. Moving the goalposts

1) Not a rabid CPJ hater or have you simply chosen to ignore my comments in order to misrepresent me
2) CPJ is gone. I have positive expectation that CGC can be a net improvement, and that's good enough to start.

I don't know what you've heard, but I've heard there will be more money. Will it be "on a level with our opponents". Which opponents? Clemson or UGAg? No. I thought more with less was the name of the game around here.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

1) Not a rabid CPJ hater
2) CPJ is gone. I have positive expectation that CGC can be a net improvement, and that's good enough to start.

I don't know what you've heard, but I've heard there will be more money.

Where exactly have I moved the goal posts? Because I believe CGC won’t do vastly better than we have historically if we continue to under fund? You really see that as a knock on Collins?

 

[Madison Grant]

Where exactly have I moved the goal posts? Because I believe CGC won’t do vastly better than we have historically if we continue to under fund? You really see that as a knock on Collins?

Well, my argument was AGAINST those who say CGC CAN'T make things better. You might want to go back and check the original comment you quoted from me in your reply. Now. you're saying, okay, even if he can make it better. You just moved the goalposts. I didn't change the argument. You did. Again, straw man by you. You seem to want to contend I want some unachievable level above the current program. 'Even if CGC improves things'. I never asked for beyond that, and what does that exactly look like. "Oh, you unrealistic people who think we can be team X." Stop defining my arguments. Straw man.

 

[Boaty1]

Please point out my straw man.

Sure. When you said some are arguing that if we don’t outrecruit Clemson then we are settling for mediocrity. I have never seen that argument on here and I know I certainly haven’t made it.

I’ll attach a link explaining the straw man fallacy below because I notice you are struggling with the concept. Let me know if I can do anything else for you.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/169/Strawman-Fallacy

 

[GT_B]

How many threads are we going to have with the battle of CGC vs CPJ?

It’s getting so annoying like every other thread goes to that direction. If you’re happy to see Paul gone, then thank Paul for the years of service and move on. If you didn’t want to see Paul go, then support CGC now and hope he proves you wrong.

If we can’t move past it one way or another, then just stay off the board for a while. It would be the in everyone’s best interests. I know it’s the off-season and content to discuss is limited until signing day or spring ball, but this is getting ridiculous. I’m pretty sure everyone knows at this point where the same 5-10 usual suspects stand on both sides of the discussion.

 

[gthxxxx]

The cart doesn't come before the horse. Have the vision to sell people on. What was being done was not it.

My interpretation might be incorrect, but I saw the GT football program vision under CPJ as running an unorthodox offense in order to bridge the gap in both recruiting and on the field play by focusing on different talents, strategy, and tactics than the top tier football colleges, while not compromising on higher education or going too red in the budget. I support such a vision, albeit only spiritually and not monetarily. I'm intrigued in what CGC's era will bring in the sense that change piques interest. I also await to learn what CGC's vision will be, and I hope he continues the positive trend of doing things in what I view as the "right way".

Going on a tangent, I don't think I will ever support GT football monetarily aside from adding to the viewer count for network advertisement revenue and purchasing some GT apparel (which is more because of reminiscent value and its academic/research rather than athletic appeal). That being said, I'm also not the type to support GT football no matter what. I will lose interest if GT starts going down the path of paying lip service to the academic mission in order to win football games, and that probably will also negatively color my perception of the higher ups in GT as an institution deserving of research contracts and their commitment to producing qualified engineer graduates.

 

[MidtownJacket]

How many threads are we going to have with the battle of CGC vs CPJ?

It’s getting so annoying like every other thread goes to that direction. If you’re happy to see Paul gone, then thank Paul for the years of service and move on. If you didn’t want to see Paul go, then support CGC now and hope he proves you wrong.

If we can’t move past it one way or another, then just stay off the board for a while. It would be the in everyone’s best interests. I know it’s the off-season and content to discuss is limited until signing day or spring ball, but this is getting ridiculous. I’m pretty sure everyone knows at this point where the same 5-10 usual suspects stand on both sides of the discussion.

Agree on principle with this, but a significant correction. It’s not the off season. We are prepping for CPJ and our graduating class’s final game.

Let’s get our minds right and welcome the newness that CGC brings, appreciate what CPJ gave us, pull for this crop of Jolly Good Fellows and hope we go out on top of the gophers who claim title of our gold.


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