The Changing Face of Football in America

stinger78

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,347
The NFL suspended the Steeler safety for basically “targeting” though the NFL doesn’t use that word, for the season, ejected in the game and the last 3 games of the season.

Basically that is the approach that will take the head shots out of the game.
This is my contention all along. There has always been a PF for unnecessary roughness. Going head to head, whether it is an offensive or defensive player - and as often as not it is an offensive player - should be called every time, IMPO.
 

jgtengineer

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,970
Thanks for posting the info about rugby. It was intersting. I just finished reading Playing With the Enemy, a book about the 1995 World match between South Africa and New Zealand.

I question the part about studies showing a connection with CTE and long distance running. You can take any group sufficiently large enough and find evidence of almost anything. That does not indicate a casual relationship.

You stated "They have done studies... ." Can you provide a link to one of those studies? I find this part of your post very surprising and would llike to see how those studies were done.
It was an article I read in a medical journal while waiting for my wife at Duke med. I will try to find it but those things can be pay walled.
 

jgtengineer

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,970

Not the article. But notice how they have a segement in there for
  • People who participate in road/concrete-based activities like cycling, rollerblading, skateboarding, etc
The study i read did link this to marathon runners and such basically suggesting it was also the reason for it to manifest in light contact sports like soccer etc suggesting that Impacts can hurt but so can just massive excessive physical activity to generate the symptoms.
 

jgtengineer

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,970
I wonder then if they have looked at CTE in powerlifters/world's strongest man types? I would think they have a ton of anaerobic events but relatively few head impacts, seems like a good point of comparison to test that idea.
I think the issue is co-morbid issues with combat sports are really high. Wrestling is often the sport of choice for people that become powerlifters and you take a ton of hits to the head in that.
 

MWBATL

Helluva Engineer
Messages
6,536
I have become jaded...I find myself highly suspicious of so much research if it has any hint of politics or money associated with it. I have no idea what to believe about CTE and whether it is a causal or result of issue.

But it does seem to be common sense that a violent game will have long term health effects, even if it just on joints. Maybe of the brain as well.

It currently is a choice. People can choose to play, or not. The payoff for success far exceeds the payoffs you can get from becoming a plumber or even getting a basic GT degree. At least over the first decade of your earnings.

I support continued efforts to devise safer equipment.

I also support freedom of choice for young people to pursue whatever they wish to pursue. In Europe, young teens can sign professional football (soccer) contracts and go full-time (most do between ages 16 and 18). abandoning any further scholastic education. All for the promise of riches and fame that sport can bring. If they fail, they are ill-prepared for most other careers. It is still freedom to choose.
 

jgtengineer

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,970
CTE has a lot of similar symptoms to alzheimer s( protein build up) and the brains of people with COPD after a long time of sub functioning lungs (similiar issues to where they get versions of dementia etc) My grandmother after beign a smoker of you know forever since the 50s basically had all the same symptoms of CTE and i'd be willing to bet the scans pre-stroke probably showed the same dark spots.
 

stinger78

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,347
It’s easy to become jaded. I am, too. There is far too much agenda research going on today. That is because - The Money - is behind the agenda, IMPO. Still, I have known two men, both pro football players, who died with CTE. It is a real thing, but as was said, a chosen profession.
 

orientalnc

Helluva Engineer
Retired Staff
Messages
9,918
Location
Oriental, NC
This is my contention all along. There has always been a PF for unnecessary roughness. Going head to head, whether it is an offensive or defensive player - and as often as not it is an offensive player - should be called every time, IMPO.
I saw/heard commentary about this on ESPN a while back. One of the conferences (the B1G, IIRC) tried to clamp down on roughness on tackling plays and it didn't change the data. The Targeting penalty came about, partly, as a result of those experiments in enforcement. Having to miss PT has been much more effective at curbing violent helment initiated collisions. I don't believe the Targeting rule is perfect, but I don't fault the NCAA and conferences for trying to make the game safer.
 

Northeast Stinger

Helluva Engineer
Messages
10,805
The next innovation in football helmets will look something like this
View attachment 15362

Here’s an accompanying article to go with the photo: https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/...n-games-along-with-position-specific-helmets/

The NFL has required players at certain positions to wear the “Guardian Caps” in offseason practices, and the article suggests they could be worn in games soon. Most colleges and some high schools now also use them during practices, and according to studies; the lower the level of play the more reduction in head injuries they produce.

Regardless of whether or not these specific devices start seeing in-game action, the next generation of football helmets will almost definitely include a soft, padded outer shell. It may require teams to go away from the traditional logo-ed helmet look if it strays too far away from the traditional buckets, but will go a long way for player safety.
The article suggests a reduction in concussions, not elimination.

The problem is playing at game speed and having the head stop suddenly while the brain continues traveling. In theory the padding would act like slowly applying breaks, so the skull does not stop as abruptly, but total elimination of concussions currently does not have a technological fix.

But something is better than nothing.
 

GoldZ

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
912
I have become jaded...I find myself highly suspicious of so much research if it has any hint of politics or money associated with it. I have no idea what to believe about CTE and whether it is a causal or result of issue.

But it does seem to be common sense that a violent game will have long term health effects, even if it just on joints. Maybe of the brain as well.

It currently is a choice. People can choose to play, or not. The payoff for success far exceeds the payoffs you can get from becoming a plumber or even getting a basic GT degree. At least over the first decade of your earnings.

I support continued efforts to devise safer equipment.

I also support freedom of choice for young people to pursue whatever they wish to pursue. In Europe, young teens can sign professional football (soccer) contracts and go full-time (most do between ages 16 and 18). abandoning any further scholastic education. All for the promise of riches and fame that sport can bring. If they fail, they are ill-prepared for most other careers. It is still freedom to choose.
Most of the people you reference who can choose, are too young to have fully developed brains yet. Take for example the 20% of college students who believe the Holocaust was a hoax. And no, it's not just ignorance.
 

gte447f

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,086

Not the article. But notice how they have a segement in there for
  • People who participate in road/concrete-based activities like cycling, rollerblading, skateboarding, etc
The study i read did link this to marathon runners and such basically suggesting it was also the reason for it to manifest in light contact sports like soccer etc suggesting that Impacts can hurt but so can just massive excessive physical activity to generate the symptoms.
I am not discounting the oxygen demand theory, but for the group of “people who participate in road/concrete based activities like cycling, rollerblading, skateboarding, etc.”, I am sure CTE in that group would also be correlated to/caused by head injuries. I am a “retired” middle distance runner turned avid, amateur cyclist, and I can tell you that concussions are fairly common among amateur mountain bikers and road cyclists alike, due to crashes. I would imagine the numbers are probably worse for rollerblading and probably very high for skateboarding.
 

orientalnc

Helluva Engineer
Retired Staff
Messages
9,918
Location
Oriental, NC
I am not discounting the oxygen demand theory, but for the group of “people who participate in road/concrete based activities like cycling, rollerblading, skateboarding, etc.”, I am sure CTE in that group would also be correlated to/caused by head injuries. I am a “retired” middle distance runner turned avid, amateur cyclist, and I can tell you that concussions are fairly common among amateur mountain bikers and road cyclists alike, due to crashes. I would imagine the numbers are probably worse for rollerblading and probably very high for skateboarding.
This.

I was a long distance runner in high school and college, then a (poorly) competitive runner as an adult. Later, I also became an amateur cyclist. In 40+ years as a runner I never had, nor did I know of anyone who had, a head injury related to a fall. I heard about a Fell runner in England who hit a tree limb with his head and died, but nothing else. I had a crash on my bike in 2018 that cracked my helmet and left me briefly unconscious. I remember being on the ground entangled in my bike, but I remember nothing about the fall. One crash is not likely to cause CTE. It's repeateed head injuries that seem to be the culprit.

In case you're interested, I seem to be OK. I still like the Rolling Stones and remember most of the lyrics to their songs.
 

LongforDodd

LatinxBreakfastTacos
Messages
3,195
I'm surprised Cross Keys in Dekalb county fields a team still, I guess it's some kind of requirement? Apparently they are AAAAA now, I think they were AA when I was in school, but they only have 22 players on their whole roster and have only won 9 games since 2005.
You seem to be familiar with Cross Keys...and the demographics of the neighborhoods it serves.
 

TechPhi97

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
795
Location
Davidson, NC
I have become jaded...I find myself highly suspicious of so much research if it has any hint of politics or money associated with it. I have no idea what to believe about CTE and whether it is a causal or result of issue.

But it does seem to be common sense that a violent game will have long term health effects, even if it just on joints. Maybe of the brain as well.

It currently is a choice. People can choose to play, or not. The payoff for success far exceeds the payoffs you can get from becoming a plumber or even getting a basic GT degree. At least over the first decade of your earnings.

I support continued efforts to devise safer equipment.

I also support freedom of choice for young people to pursue whatever they wish to pursue. In Europe, young teens can sign professional football (soccer) contracts and go full-time (most do between ages 16 and 18). abandoning any further scholastic education. All for the promise of riches and fame that sport can bring. If they fail, they are ill-prepared for most other careers. It is still freedom to choose.
The article above is interesting, I think the big issue is that you can't diagnose CTE until you perform an autopsy. I imagine that this biases all of the research, to some extent. The number of people even having an autopsy is biased towards those in higher profile careers or where this research if focused, and people who die by other causes (e.g. heart attack) would have this overlooked. It's probably very hard to get a definitive answer; however, having spent the last 15 years in a stats-heavy discipline, I usually live by the axiom: "The simplest explanation is usually the best explanation." Ramming your head into things at full speed causes brain damage is not a leap of faith, IMO.
 

stinger78

Helluva Engineer
Messages
4,347
I saw/heard commentary about this on ESPN a while back. One of the conferences (the B1G, IIRC) tried to clamp down on roughness on tackling plays and it didn't change the data. The Targeting penalty came about, partly, as a result of those experiments in enforcement. Having to miss PT has been much more effective at curbing violent helment initiated collisions. I don't believe the Targeting rule is perfect, but I don't fault the NCAA and conferences for trying to make the game safer.
Nor do I. IIRC, the helmet-to-helmet call is an unnecessary roughness call, but the offense that leads to ejection is the intentionality defined by certain criteria resulting in the penalty we know as targeting. You can get a PF for unnecessary roughness involving the helmet and not get a targeting ejection. I think both of these are good. However, as long as helmets keep being made "safer," we'll continue to see head injuries and, sadly, CTE.
 

takethepoints

Helluva Engineer
Messages
6,096
In skydiving, we have a concept called Booth's 2nd Law, which states: "The safer skydiving gear becomes, the more chances skydivers will take, in order to keep the fatality rate constant." It's held true since it was posited some 40-50 years ago. I see similar behavior exhibited by football players. The challenge isn't necessarily making the gear safer as it is doing something that corrects the risk homeostasis a player feels when surrounded by increasingly effective gear. How you solve that, no one knows.
Yes. This is a major part of the problem. When radar collision detectors were put on tankers after Prodhoe Bay there were more collisions. The watch on the ships quit looking for other vessels or obstacles; "Hey, dude, the radar will catch it."

Now the easiest way to change football behavior would be a series of changes in equipment. Go back to simple leather helmets = fewer head to head collisions. Mandate lower body padding (I believe htis used to be a rule, st least in high school) = slowing players down and less violent collisions. But … none of this will happen. And tackle football will slowly decline. Just like the Friday night fights and bowling tournaments.
 

MWBATL

Helluva Engineer
Messages
6,536
Most of the people you reference who can choose, are too young to have fully developed brains yet. Take for example the 20% of college students who believe the Holocaust was a hoax. And no, it's not just ignorance.
Try telling 16-18 year olds what to do and see how far you get with that, Tell them not to smoke pot, or cigarettes, or drive cars too fast or get tattoos etc etc. Different societies decide differently at what age young people can make adult decisions. The age of consent for sex varies but is often 16 (or even younger in some places). I don't necessarily disagree with you, but society today has clearly moved past that point of view.
 

Jacket05

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
686
Rugby is a contact sport. On any given "play" only one target is going to experience a collision with the exception of rucking and accidental collisions. You cannot "block" in rugby except in a ruck situation. A Scrum which is what the football line of scrimmage comes from only happens in certain situations and it is not a collision event you start by getting entangled and you push each other.

On the whole over an entire game of rugby you may take 2-3 big hits with an upwards of 10-15 if you are a full (equavelent to a QB).

Tackling isn't what causes higher CTE rates.
Blocking is. Epecially now that hands can be used. Now on every play you have massive head to head hits along the line of scrimmage by all the linemen. Your Running backs blockign typically use their heads too. And on any given play you have atleast 10 collisions happening at some point in the play. The tackle is not the issue.

7 on 7 full tackle would see less head collisions than a quarter of full 11 on 11.

Here is the strange thing. They have done studies and these studies show that there are rates of CTE within Soccer, and even long distance running.

CTE is possibly caused by Anaerobically pushing your body and operating where oxygen has to be relocated away from your brain. But the evidence is not conclusive. Impacts may just be something that makes it manifest faster.
I played rugby at Tech for like a year and a half and loved it. When people bring up the football injuries I always bring up rugby. To me the pads are actually a part of the problem. When you have pads on it makes the player feel like they can throw their body around more carelessly since the "pads will protect them". When playing rugby there are no pads so when you go to hit you are more aware of how you tackle to protect yourself. I mean there are still a lot of concussions and major injuries in rugby but I feel like it promotes proper techniques when playing. There is probably a balance between minimal padding that will reduce damage from the impacts but still encourage awareness of technique.

That being said I don't really see this happening as the behavior is so ingrained in football players that reducing padding now would create more problems in the short term.
 

takethepoints

Helluva Engineer
Messages
6,096
I played rugby at Tech for like a year and a half and loved it. When people bring up the football injuries I always bring up rugby. To me the pads are actually a part of the problem. When you have pads on it makes the player feel like they can throw their body around more carelessly since the "pads will protect them". When playing rugby there are no pads so when you go to hit you are more aware of how you tackle to protect yourself. I mean there are still a lot of concussions and major injuries in rugby but I feel like it promotes proper techniques when playing. There is probably a balance between minimal padding that will reduce damage from the impacts but still encourage awareness of technique.

That being said I don't really see this happening as the behavior is so ingrained in football players that reducing padding now would create more problems in the short term.
Yes, and the songs at the after game parties are great!!
 

Northeast Stinger

Helluva Engineer
Messages
10,805
The article above is interesting, I think the big issue is that you can't diagnose CTE until you perform an autopsy. I imagine that this biases all of the research, to some extent. The number of people even having an autopsy is biased towards those in higher profile careers or where this research if focused, and people who die by other causes (e.g. heart attack) would have this overlooked. It's probably very hard to get a definitive answer; however, having spent the last 15 years in a stats-heavy discipline, I usually live by the axiom: "The simplest explanation is usually the best explanation." Ramming your head into things at full speed causes brain damage is not a leap of faith, IMO.
And there are leading indicators of possible CTE long before death and autopsy. It’s similar to where we were a few years ago with Alzheimer’s, where autopsy was the only definitive proof but the behavior changes were well documented.
 
Top