Some ugly kicking numbers I just pulled elsewhere.

RonJohn

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Matt Bosher handles kick offs and punts for the Falcons. This year has been a little down for him, but he has been successful doing both. In high school Harvin had 11 kickoffs with 4 touchbacks. It isn’t like we’d be asking him to play the French horn at halftime. He’s a D1 athlete. I’m sure he can be good at more than one thing.

He probably could be pretty good at kickoffs, but are you willing to risk a decline in punting to get it? If Harvin had started to kick off and his punting suffered, people would have been commenting how stupid it was to take him out of his zone.

Bosher has unlimited time and virtually unlimited resourced to work on punting and kicking. College students do not.

King was 69 of 83 on touchbacks in high school. He was 11 of 14 on FGs with a long of 56 in high school. In high school the kick is from the 40 and it is a touchback as soon as the ball breaks the plane of the goal line. You can't bring it out even from right on the line.

Take a look at King's video from high school. The 56 yarder had a few yards to spare. Many of the kick offs go all the way through the end zone and some look like they are close to going through the uprights. I believe that his injury played a large role in his performance this year.

 

wreckrod

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I know some folks think I'm crazy for suggesting that. Obviously, if it's just going to screw up his punting, it's not a good thing. And I only think it's doable because we aren't asking him to kick field goals. There's none of the timing or pressure or variability with the kickoff that there is with kicking field goals.

Have you seen our kickoffs and coverage? I bet our atrocious kickoffs were easily worth one, if not two touchdowns every game! How often did we give teams the ball at the 40 or worse just because the kickoff was bad? I'd settle for 10 yard shorter average punts in exchange for good kickoff field position every game. But, that's just me.
 

RonJohn

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I know some folks think I'm crazy for suggesting that. Obviously, if it's just going to screw up his punting, it's not a good thing. And I only think it's doable because we aren't asking him to kick field goals. There's none of the timing or pressure or variability with the kickoff that there is with kicking field goals.

Have you seen our kickoffs and coverage? I bet our atrocious kickoffs were easily worth one, if not two touchdowns every game! How often did we give teams the ball at the 40 or worse just because the kickoff was bad? I'd settle for 10 yard shorter average punts in exchange for good kickoff field position every game. But, that's just me.

The punt coverage wasn't very good either. Pitt had an 80 yard punt return. In all the kickoffs, kick coverage, punt coverage, kick returns, and punt returns were not good this year. Even with the short kickoffs, if the coverage had held the other teams to within the 35, it would have worked out better.

I don't think it is a crazy suggestion. I believe CPJ was asked during the season about that and he replied that Harvin was going to remain concentrating on punts. If you watch King's high school film, he does have a big leg. I don't know for sure if it was injury or freshman jitters or demands of college, but for some reason he wasn't kicking as well as he did in high school. If it were up to me, I would try to get him on the right track before messing with another player who is a potential All-American at his position.
 

OldJacketFan

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Kind of says it all doesn't it? :)

Ah, but usually there is tons of pressure on a placekicker replacing a punter in a game, and vice versa. The only similarities between the jobs are that both players make a living with their foot, and their specialties are critical to field position and scoring.

Because there are so many differences in the mechanics of each job, rarely do the kickers and punters practice the other's role.
 

wreckrod

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Ok, so it's a non-starter. The whole special teams and kicking (except the actual punts) just sucks across the board.
 

vamosjackets

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Kind of says it all doesn't it? :)

Ah, but usually there is tons of pressure on a placekicker replacing a punter in a game, and vice versa. The only similarities between the jobs are that both players make a living with their foot, and their specialties are critical to field position and scoring.

Because there are so many differences in the mechanics of each job, rarely do the kickers and punters practice the other's role.
Seems a lot like golf to me. You can be good at the long and short game even though the mechanics of these swings are completely different. But, usually the guys at the top of the list for driving aren't the same names at the top of the list for chipping/putting with some notable exceptions.

Or an argument closer to home, a QB being good at both running and passing (and reading the option).
 

RonJohn

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Ok, so it's a non-starter. The whole special teams and kicking (except the actual punts) just sucks across the board.

Special teams was very bad last year. KO coverage was 117 out of 129. Punt coverage was 87 out of 129. Punt returns was 66 out of 129. Kick returns were 95 out of 129. For Harvin, net punting was 29th. If the coverage had been better and the 80 yard return had not happened, net punting would have been 10th.

I hope they are able to get the coverage fixed next year. That would help a lot. I also hope the place kicking will improve. If King can kick even at his high school level, we will be in good shape there.
 

Skeptic

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Ok, I don't presume to know anything about it. Is that a thing? Would trying to do kickoffs mess with his punting mechanics and throw off his punts?

Just from a logical point of view the two kicks and their motions are very different, but the kickoff is exactly the same every time. It doesn't seem too crazy to me to have two different shots, heck in golf you can have several different swing nuances for different shots. This would just be like the difference between hitting a high flop shot (punting) and hitting a drive in a decently wide fairway (kickoffs).

Does anyone on the board coach kicking for high school, or even better has anyone on the board kicked in high school or college and able to speak on this with some authority?
The golf analogy is not bad when considering timing, leg extension and point of contact, etc. We all know -- the crazies that is -- what happens when you strike the ball too early on the down swing or too late. Everything is timed out for maximum contact for whatever club, at just the right point in the swing. Those rare moments -- for me -- are magic. And then ...
 

Jacketman1

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I want to give a quick shout out to Bennett Barton. 5th year senior who switched positions from WR to kicker. Kicked off against Duke, right away boomed 2 or 3 for touchbacks.
 

gt2kmd

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To me saying punters shouldn't kickoff is like saying that tennis players shouldn't learn overheads, top spins, and back hands because learning one will mess up the others. Punters and kickers rely on muscle memory from a lot of practice. The types of kicks are so different I find it hard to believe that practicing an extra set of motions of a kickoff will mess up punt timing and mechanics. I think the only thing that would mess him up is if practicing kickoffs took away too much time from punting practice.
 

OldJacketFan

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To me saying punters shouldn't kickoff is like saying that tennis players shouldn't learn overheads, top spins, and back hands because learning one will mess up the others. Punters and kickers rely on muscle memory from a lot of practice. The types of kicks are so different I find it hard to believe that practicing an extra set of motions of a kickoff will mess up punt timing and mechanics. I think the only thing that would mess him up is if practicing kickoffs took away too much time from punting practice.

Tell you what, talk to any collegiate or pro punter/kicker and get back to us. I'll reiterate what I said earlier that considering the NFL active roster is 53 don't you think NFL head coaches you love to have that 53rd spot for a roster player if his punter/kicker could do both at an NFL quality level?
 

wreckrod

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Tell you what, talk to any collegiate or pro punter/kicker and get back to us. I'll reiterate what I said earlier that considering the NFL active roster is 53 don't you think NFL head coaches you love to have that 53rd spot for a roster player if his punter/kicker could do both at an NFL quality level?

There's a kicker and a punter in NFL but they both cross train and are usually the backup plan for each other in the event one of them gets hurt.

No one is suggesting we drop our current kickers and only keep Harvin. We are just saying let's get the most out of what we are working with. If Harvin can punt AND kick the ball in the end zone then that helps the team. Heck, even if he just offers competition to the two guys we have right now that's a good thing.

Can we all agree we've sucked at kick offs and they desperately need help there?
 

gt2kmd

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Tell you what, talk to any collegiate or pro punter/kicker and get back to us. I'll reiterate what I said earlier that considering the NFL active roster is 53 don't you think NFL head coaches you love to have that 53rd spot for a roster player if his punter/kicker could do both at an NFL quality level?

What on Earth are you talking about? Kicking off (one task) is not equivalent to taking over all kicking duties. If a punter kicking off was so ridiculous the Falcons punter wouldn't do it. I don't need to talk to any pro to know that it is done. I can see it on TV.

But go no further than Georgia Tech during Paul Johnson's coaching tenure to find a punter who also trained to kickoff. Chandler Anderson was the starting punter for awhile at Tech. He also handled some kickoffs his senior year. How dare he even try to kickoff! :)

Edit:
One of my favorite punters in GT history was Rodney Williams. He handled the kickoffs during his final year. What? But he was a top punter in the country and played in the NFL. He should not have been allowed to kickoff. :)
 
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OldJacketFan

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What on Earth are you talking about? Kicking off (one task) is not equivalent to taking over all kicking duties. If a punter kicking off was so ridiculous the Falcons punter wouldn't do it. I don't need to talk to any pro to know that it is done. I can see it on TV.

But go no further than Georgia Tech during Paul Johnson's coaching tenure to find a punter who also trained to kickoff. Chandler Anderson was the starting punter for awhile at Tech. He also handled some kickoffs his senior year. How dare he even try to kickoff! :)

Edit:
One of my favorite punters in GT history was Rodney Williams. He handled the kickoffs during his final year. What? But he was a top punter in the country and played in the NFL. He should not have been allowed to kickoff. :)

Do you want to take arguably the best young punter in the nation and possibly foul up his technique? 17' is over and lets see what Davis and King do in spring and fall before even thinking about looking at Harvin. Sounds to me like a lot of folks assume the timing, the steps and technique for place kicking and punting are identical and nothing could be farther from the truth. Can one do the other? Of course but at nowhere near the level of the one they specialize in.
 

RonJohn

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What on Earth are you talking about? Kicking off (one task) is not equivalent to taking over all kicking duties. If a punter kicking off was so ridiculous the Falcons punter wouldn't do it. I don't need to talk to any pro to know that it is done. I can see it on TV.

But go no further than Georgia Tech during Paul Johnson's coaching tenure to find a punter who also trained to kickoff. Chandler Anderson was the starting punter for awhile at Tech. He also handled some kickoffs his senior year. How dare he even try to kickoff! :)

Edit:
One of my favorite punters in GT history was Rodney Williams. He handled the kickoffs during his final year. What? But he was a top punter in the country and played in the NFL. He should not have been allowed to kickoff. :)

I don't think anyone has said that is is impossible. It is uncommon. Bosher does both. How many other NFL teams have a normal punter/kicker? None, so that is 1 out of 32, which makes it uncommon. You listed two years out of the last 22 at GT where the punter kicked. That is 1 out of 11 which makes it also uncommon.

Have you been in meetings where the issue was discussed among the coaches? Have you been in meetings where the issue was discussed with Harvin? Have you been in meetings where King's kickoffs and injury were discussed between the coaches and King? Do you know how much of the King's kick off issues this year were related to his injury? I have said it many times related to other issues, but it amazes me how many fans believe that with extremely limited information they know more about the players, the team, and football than professional coaches who have constant contact with the players.
 

wreckrod

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It's just as amazing to me how so many folks assume that coaching football is so esoteric that only paid professionals have any business talking about it. Also odd that even trying kickoffs is this guaranteed trip to ruining our punter forever.

Our inconsistent and lackluster performance should dissuade anyone of that notion really quickly.

Our coaching staff has never wowed me with their willingness to think outside the box.
 

danny daniel

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IF there was a need and no other options available, maybe. Bosher is the only one I know of who does both at the NFL level which ought to tell you just how hard it is. Don't you think coaches would love to have that roster slot if possible? '17 is behind us so worrying about the numbers from last year is pointless. Having both kickers in the S&C program and healthy will show come spring/fall. Why would you want to screw up one huge asset on a poor S/T group? I just don't get it.

Lothridge did it at both levels as well I believe. But I would favor a separate place kicker just from the practice and game warm-up aspect. A duel function kicker would affect the routines of the backups and other ST players.
 

RonJohn

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It's just as amazing to me how so many folks assume that coaching football is so esoteric that only paid professionals have any business talking about it. Also odd that even trying kickoffs is this guaranteed trip to ruining our punter forever.

Our inconsistent and lackluster performance should dissuade anyone of that notion really quickly.

Our coaching staff has never wowed me with their willingness to think outside the box.

I didn't say that people can't talk about coaching decisions or football. I did say that many people believe they know more about football, the team, and the players than the coaches. I think there are only a few posters that know close to as much about football as college coaches if that many. I haven't seen any of your posts that made me feel as though you think you know more than the coaches. Your original question was whether Harvin had attempted kick offs. I don't know if he did, but when asked about during the season it CPJ said almost immediately that he wouldn't be doing it. That led me to believe that it had at least been thought about. If he hadn't thought about it before the question, he probably wouldn't have answered as quickly.

As to football being esoteric, it depends on what level you are talking about. Just using my limited knowledge as an example: If I see an overhead shot(like you see NFL players looking at on the sidelines) of pre-snap and after-snap lineups, I wouldn't be able to immediately identify the offensive and defensive formations. Someone like Tom Brady would look at those pictures and note the pre-snap formation. He would then look at the post-snap line up. He would then look for signs, such as when the defense lines up in a certain formation, but the cornerback is lined up inside the receiver, the defense shifts into a different coverage post snap. I would have trouble identifying the pre-snap formation and then the coverage. Brady would have no problem identifying either, and no problem identifying any give aways if they exist. If I were calling plays in a GT game, I wouldn't know the players, or the team chemistry. I wouldn't understand the defensive lineups and coverage real-time. I wouldn't be able to pay attention to the ball, the blocking, and the down field coverage. I wouldn't be able to discuss all of those areas with the coaches in the booth in enough time to call the next play. People who I attend games and watch games with know a good bit more than I about football, but during the game they don't see all of those things either. They will say that something caused an issue and then realize they are wrong when they see a replay later. It isn't amazing that people talk about football, or ask why we did/do things the way we did/do. What is amazing to me is when people state definitively that if we had run this play, or used this player instead of that one we would have won. What I have seen on GT forums for many years is that the backup QB is the best player on the team. If he was starting over the QB, we would be undefeated. Invariably, either the backup starts the next year and all of a sudden everyone wants the new backup, or during the year information comes out that helps explain why the backup is the backup. Even if a fan has as much knowledge and experience at football as the coaches, he will not have the contact time with the players and observation of practice. There is no way for anyone outside of the program to know definitively the best thing for the program.
 

Papa Doc

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I know this is crazy, but after his injury the Jackets would have averaged better defensive starting position by intentionally kicking off out of bounds around the 20 yard line and giving the 35 yard line as the starting point. Most kicks were as low as they were short after the injury which increased the potential for bad things to happen, which they did more often than desired.

On another note . . . if you see someone wearing something gold and white with a GT logo on it, you can assume he went to Tech. If you see someone wearing something red and black with a UGAG logo on it, you can assume he went to Walmart. Happy new year and boomer sooner!
 
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