Should Hall Retire? (Poll)

[57jacket]

Yes

 

[FredJacket]

Ramsey is the recruiter & has been for a few years.

 

[gtbeak]

I'm curious...6 folks have voted "No, not as long as he has the support of past MLB players who contribute a lot". Could one of those 6 elaborate on their answer?

 

[gtbeak]

Ramsey is the recruiter & has been for a few years.

This doesn't eliminate the possibility that we are lazy in our recruiting. I'm not privy to any insider info on baseball recruiting, but I have heard others in different contexts than this message board say the same. The thesis goes that we just sit around the East Cobb travel ball fields and watch the "goings on" there and rarely get out to see what else is out there available to us. This would be similar to someone who just sits in their own echo chamber on social media or whatever being surprised when they find out that there is more in the world than just that bubble.

I know we have signed players from outside Georgia. Were these guys out-of-state players who still spent a lot of time around the East Cobb area with their travel teams, or did we go find them? If the latter, that would seem to refute the thesis, but if the former it may confirm the thesis.

 

[FredJacket]

This doesn't eliminate the possibility that we are lazy in our recruiting. I'm not privy to any insider info on baseball recruiting, but I have heard others in different contexts than this message board say the same. The thesis goes that we just sit around the East Cobb travel ball fields and watch the "goings on" there and rarely get out to see what else is out there available to us. This would be similar to someone who just sits in their own echo chamber on social media or whatever being surprised when they find out that there is more in the world than just that bubble.

I know we have signed players from outside Georgia. Were these guys out-of-state players who still spent a lot of time around the East Cobb area with their travel teams, or did we go find them? If the latter, that would seem to refute the thesis, but if the former it may confirm the thesis.

CORRECT!!!

So how does that analysis square with the folks clamoring to get Hall gone so we don't "lose" Ramsey?

Just to be clear about my position. I have no clue about recruiting or what Ga Tech does well or wrong re recruiting. I'm just really interested in how much of the criticism of Hall should also be applied to Ramsey? [of late]

I want Ramsey to be the next HC. But I don't expect him to "necessarily" suddenly make us better. He has ZERO head coaching experience.

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

I can’t believe we are even having this discussion anymore. Hall has had DECADES to take GT to the next level. And he hasn’t delivered. Any coach GT would hire could have done what Hall has done. Be anverage or a little above anverage and win enough games over 30 years to be treated like you did something. We are in last place in the Coastal. LAST! JBatt needs to give him his rocker and a pat on the back and bring this program back.

 

[FredJacket]

I can’t believe we are even having this discussion anymore. Hall has had DECADES to take GT to the next level. And he hasn’t delivered. Any coach GT would hire could have done what Hall has done. Be anverage or a little above anverage and win enough games over 30 years to be treated like you did something. We are in last place in the Coastal. LAST! JBatt needs to give him his rocker and a pat on the back and bring this program back.

Bolded. Hyperbole much?

Careful what you wish for.

 

[GTNavyNuke]

Poor recruiting which is based solely on PG rankings. The harder you throw the higher your ranking. It doesn't matter if you can actually pitch or throw strikes. Tech has gotten lazy on the recruiting trail. Their downward spiral can be traced to when Lakepoint was built and became the showcase capital of travel ball. Tech needs more hard nosed players. I.e. luke waddell

Sorry, I don't buy that we don't recruit well. That's based on some studies I did years ago showing good correlation between PG rankings and RPI. Also, we have lots of guys get drafted which confirms the rankings.

The problem could be the balance of talent recruited (not enough high end pitchers till recently) and more importantly, the consistent coaching failure to mold them to play as a team; especially defensively.

 

[gtbeak]

Sorry, I don't buy that we don't recruit well. That's based on some studies I did years ago showing good correlation between PG rankings and RPI. Also, we have lots of guys get drafted which confirms the rankings.

The problem could be the balance of talent recruited (not enough high end pitchers till recently) and more importantly, the consistent coaching failure to mold them to play as a team; especially defensively.

Nuke, do you still have that work you did years ago? I was thinking about this topic while mowing grass just now, and that was my conclusion...that someone needs to graph all teams PG ranking versus RPI as you have done for Tech. If the norm is that the RPI follows the PG ranking then we know this is probably not a valid argument, but if the opposite then it would have some validity.

 

[GTNavyNuke]

Nuke, do you still have that work you did years ago? I was thinking about this topic while mowing grass just now, and that was my conclusion...that someone needs to graph all teams PG ranking versus RPI as you have done for Tech. If the norm is that the RPI follows the PG ranking then we know this is probably not a valid argument, but if the opposite then it would have some validity.

Yes somewhere. Scatter chart of team ranking versus RPI (or final ranking I dont remember,) with a regression line and r squared.

I'll look tomorrow. It may have changed. But when I did it, for baseball and football, there was A valid discussion for football that players got their ranking upgraded when a factory team selected them. Self referencing bias. I don't think that happens much for baseball.

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

Bolded. Hyperbole much?

Careful what you wish for.

Seriously? You really think GT, a P5 school in the middle of one of the best states for high school baseball, is going to be worse than last place in our division with a new coach? How many years should he be given? No one said a word for 25 years now all of a sudden we are haters. We are the ones who gave him a pass for 30 years. Sorry to actually think it’s time to try something different.

 

[gtbeak]

Seriously? You really think GT, a P5 school in the middle of one of the best states for high school baseball, is going to be worse than last place in our division with a new coach? How many years should he be given? No one said a word for 25 years now all of a sudden we are haters. We are the ones who gave him a pass for 30 years. Sorry to actually think it’s time to try something different.

Just for the record, folks have been calling for Danny's head for many years now. He isn't called CFDH for nothing. To be fair, that may be the moniker on one of the other Tech boards and not used here, I can't remember.

 

[FredJacket]

Seriously? You really think GT, a P5 school in the middle of one of the best states for high school baseball, is going to be worse than last place in our division with a new coach? How many years should he be given? No one said a word for 25 years now all of a sudden we are haters. We are the ones who gave him a pass for 30 years. Sorry to actually think it’s time to try something different.

Not arguing your bottom line... time for something different. I quibble with your actual words... & you just sort of doubled down. Hall's teams are rarely (if ever?) last in the division. Your comments seem to imply we've had 25 -30 years like 2023. Let's at least ... please... keep things in perspective.

& don't ever accuse me of failing to be serious. This is a fan forum. If we aren't seriously serious, what are we doing?

 

[Quietman6520]

Can you elaborate? I've heard things like this about Hall before and his reliance on East Cobb.

Showcase baseball began with Perfect game. The more perfect game events you play the higher your ranking. If you play for East Cobb, Canes or Team Elite you are ranked higher by default. If you check the PG profiles for all the Tech players you will notice that they all played a ton of PG events. When was the last time Coach Halls staff found a diamond. A guy who couldn't afford to play PG events but is perhaps more hard nosed than current players because he hasn't had everything given to him. It actually isn't just Coach Halls staff that has fallen into this trap. See Clemson, FSU, USC( until they went a different direction this year - tranfer portal). The recruiters who only call these showcase clubs for recruits and don't actually go and see the kid play multiple times are simply Lazy. Coach Burrell fails because he only looks at the numbers. Ex: spin rare eff, mph etc. These are tools mlb teams use to draft kids but most of these kids don't make it to MLB. Much like Tech pitchers of the recent years, they simply can't throw the ball where it needs to go when they want and certainly can't throw multiple pitches for strikes. Give me 12 pitchers that throw 88 -90 but can locate 3 pitches for strikes in any count and I guarantee you I win more games than 20 guys that throw 95mph without control. I hope you can see my point.

 

[Quietman6520]

Can you elaborate? I've heard things like this about Hall before and his reliance on East Cobb.

Showcase baseball began with Perfect game. The more perfect game events you play the higher your ranking. If you play for East Cobb, Canes or Team Elite you are ranked higher by default. If you check the PG profiles for all the Tech players you will notice that they all played a ton of PG events. When was the last time Coach Halls staff found a diamond. A guy who couldn't afford to play PG events but is perhaps more hard nosed than current players because he hasn't had everything given to him. It actually isn't just Coach Halls staff that has fallen into this trap. See Clemson, FSU, USC( until they went a different direction this year - tranfer portal). The recruiters who only call these showcase clubs for recruits and don't actually go and see the kid play multiple times are simply Lazy. Coach Burrell fails because he only looks at the numbers. Ex: spin rate eff. mph, etc. These are tools mlb teams use to draft kids but most of these kids don't make it to MLB. Much like Tech pitchers of the recent years, they simply can't throw the ball where it needs to go when they want and certainly can't throw multiple pitches for strikes. Give me 12 pitchers that throw 88 -90 but can locate 3 pitches for strikes in any count and I guarantee you I win more games than 20 guys that throw 95mph without control. I hope you can see my point.

 

[GTNavyNuke]

Yes somewhere. Scatter chart of team ranking versus RPI (or final ranking I dont remember,) with a regression line and r squared.

I'll look tomorrow. It may have changed. But when I did it, for baseball and football, there was A valid discussion for football that players got their ranking upgraded when a factory team selected them. Self referencing bias. I don't think that happens much for baseball.

Here it is, no great (I have learned some stuff in10 years and forgotten more) but this is what I remembered. There is a definite correlation, not perfect by any means (.2 R2) but you can see that the teams with higher PG players had higher RPI. A lot more could be done on individual player basis. One problem with PG is to get the detailed data you used to for free you have to be a subscriber. I can post Excel if anyone interested.

And @Quietman6520 point about PG being a pay for play and rankings is similar to what we have heard from some parents of GT players who have been through the PG process. I see how a lot of good players don't have the money / inclination / opportunity to do the PG stuff.

If I had a better database, I'd use it. As a politician says "Don't compare me with the Almighty, compare me with the alternatives."

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Showcase baseball began with Perfect game. The more perfect game events you play the higher your ranking. If you play for East Cobb, Canes or Team Elite you are ranked higher by default. If you check the PG profiles for all the Tech players you will notice that they all played a ton of PG events. When was the last time Coach Halls staff found a diamond. A guy who couldn't afford to play PG events but is perhaps more hard nosed than current players because he hasn't had everything given to him. It actually isn't just Coach Halls staff that has fallen into this trap. See Clemson, FSU, USC( until they went a different direction this year - tranfer portal). The recruiters who only call these showcase clubs for recruits and don't actually go and see the kid play multiple times are simply Lazy. Coach Burrell fails because he only looks at the numbers. Ex: spin rare eff, mph etc. These are tools mlb teams use to draft kids but most of these kids don't make it to MLB. Much like Tech pitchers of the recent years, they simply can't throw the ball where it needs to go when they want and certainly can't throw multiple pitches for strikes. Give me 12 pitchers that throw 88 -90 but can locate 3 pitches for strikes in any count and I guarantee you I win more games than 20 guys that throw 95mph without control. I hope you can see my point.

Thank you. I’ve said this before but the guy considered the greatest pitcher in the history of baseball rarely threw over 88 mph but he could locate any of his pitches anywhere on the plate regardless of count. When I watched him pitch for the Braves and he would get in a tight spot with runners on base I always found myself wishing he had a heater but he would make the hitter foul off multiple pitches until the hitter finally miscalculated by a fraction of inches. Strike out.

 

[g0lftime]

Thank you. I’ve said this before but the guy considered the greatest pitcher in the history of baseball rarely threw over 88 mph but he could locate any of his pitches anywhere on the plate regardless of count. When I watched him pitch for the Braves and he would get in a tight spot with runners on base I always found myself wishing he had a heater but he would make the hitter foul off multiple pitches until the hitter finally miscalculated by a fraction of inches. Strike out.

Don't leave out ball movement with control. These hitters are so good now they can hit 95+ fastballs without any movement. Good pitchers change velocity as well. Maddox was a master of control on the mound.
Pitching is different now with starters limited in pitch count and a different reliever every inning.

 

[GTBallfan]

Showcase baseball began with Perfect game. The more perfect game events you play the higher your ranking. If you play for East Cobb, Canes or Team Elite you are ranked higher by default. If you check the PG profiles for all the Tech players you will notice that they all played a ton of PG events. When was the last time Coach Halls staff found a diamond. A guy who couldn't afford to play PG events but is perhaps more hard nosed than current players because he hasn't had everything given to him. It actually isn't just Coach Halls staff that has fallen into this trap. See Clemson, FSU, USC( until they went a different direction this year - tranfer portal). The recruiters who only call these showcase clubs for recruits and don't actually go and see the kid play multiple times are simply Lazy. Coach Burrell fails because he only looks at the numbers. Ex: spin rate eff. mph, etc. These are tools mlb teams use to draft kids but most of these kids don't make it to MLB. Much like Tech pitchers of the recent years, they simply can't throw the ball where it needs to go when they want and certainly can't throw multiple pitches for strikes. Give me 12 pitchers that throw 88 -90 but can locate 3 pitches for strikes in any count and I guarantee you I win more games than 20 guys that throw 95mph without control. I hope you can see my point.

Just to give some clarification on the comment of the guys played many PG Events. Affordability isn’t an issue with that because if your travel team wants you to be at the event, and playing for them, they will make sure that you are. I’ve known plenty of kids whose parents cannot afford those events and their travel team took care of them being at the event.

 

[GTNavyNuke]

I'm curious...6 folks have voted "No, not as long as he has the support of past MLB players who contribute a lot". Could one of those 6 elaborate on their answer?

My second choice is "not as long as he has the support of past MLB players who contribute a lot" since those guys have a lot better inside knowledge of what is going on and have skin in the game emotionally since they have contributed so much money.

Me, just look at stuff from afar, and am regularly very disappointed. And my response is emotional given the long term trend. We should be doing much better given the resources and advantages we have ( great recruits, great facilities, good school, supportive past players, Atlanta - they all fit together).

So the answer for me still is Hall should be retired at the end of the year if I answer the question for myself; and the MLB guys if I want someone else to answer the question for me.

But as a great philosopher said, "I can't emotionally invest too much in how late teen early 20's guys play baseball".